Avatar review thread

[Bounty]

So as to not clutter up the discussion.

I've just come back from seeing Avatar. It's a complex movie to review, so I'll try to break it down:

First of all, the effects are very good. But that's a bit of a problem. I got the same feeling I got watching King Kong: all the effects are 'very good' but they hardly ever rise to the point where they really pop out. There are three or so scenes that really go beyond anything you've seen in CGI so far, which is quite the achievement, and all the other effects are about as seamless as you'll ever see; but I think the movie could have benefited from going into outright scenery porn mode a bit more. You sometimes get the impression someone went out of his way to show truly awe-inspiring scenes in the most mundane way possible.

The 3D is probably the best I've seen so far; it's never intrusive or obvious, and a few scenes really do gain a whole extra dimension of realism because of it. One scene in particular, involving a character diving into water, really stood out for me - it's the single most viscerally realistic CGI scene I have ever seen.

Two, the story. This is where the movie fell a bit flat for me. It's not bad by any stretch of the imagination, however, and the characters and their relationships are entirely believable. It just suffers from being largely predictable, horribly expositiony at times, and telegraphing all its plot twists miles in advance. If one character out of the blue tells a legend of a hero using a particular sign as a means to rally people, it doesn't take a PhD to see where that scene is going.

A second problem is that you really have two films trying to get the spotlight in the same running time: one is a beautiful tale of an unwilling anthropologist-by-necessity going native and exploring an admittedly interesting and well-realised culture; the other is Braveheart in space with mecha. Either one would, I think, have been a better movie than the two combined.

Finally, there has been some rah-rah militarism on this board saying the awesome humans should have 'just firebombed teh dumb natives'. The movie addresses this, in what I think is its strongest scene, and pouncing the idea into the ground. This isn't some wishy-washy eco-warrior screed against progress; it's a parable about mindless neo-colonialism and the damage it does to people who never deserved it. It's telling that the battle lines end up being drawn not between the natives and the humans, but between the scientists who realise that there is much more to be learned and gained from cooperation on the one hand, and an ironmonger with a thirst for blood getting the green light from a board of directors on the other. It's a battle between short-sighted greed and real, sustainable research.

Finally, the movie veers into the esoteric at a few points, but this ties into the science vs military angle; all the "voodoo", to use one of the characters' words, is just the native interpretation fo very very, very measurable facts. I liked that - it strikes a satisfying balance between story elements.

Overall, a 3.5/5 for me, and maybe that score might go up if I've had some time to digest the film. Definitely recommended if you have the chance to see it.

[Quetzalcoatl]

Just a quick question. I understand the running time is 2.5 hours? It might be a tough sell to the rest of the family it it drags.

[Bounty]

I didn't think it dragged. The 'big' scenes are well-spaced.

[Bounty]

And sorry for the poor style of the OP. I guess I was more tired than I thought.

[Stark]

If you were to genre-stamp the movie, what is it? I have seriously no idea what to expect, should I see this movie. Is it an action movie? A drama? Is it Aliens or District 9?

[mr friendly guy]

Just saw it today. Wasn't a bad movie. For some reason the 3 D didn't strike me as that much better than the 2 D trailers I had seen. Perhaps the scenes wasn't designed compare to say Disney 3d shows at Disneyworld where characters would frequently shoot things in the audiences direction, so it looked like it was coming right at you. Even when those critters were roaring, or jumping into the audience's direction it just didn't give me the illusion that it was jumping out the screen so to speak.

I do puzzle how some people could see a trailer and assume its huh huh playing on the noble savage archetype. I mean from my perspective I see the director is trying to tell the story of a big guy trying to bully the little guy. The fact that the little guy is technologically primitive is irrelevant, since their rights are independent on their level of technological advancement. Funny thing is, this type of argument has been used by apologists to justify racism, since you know the other side are primitives therefore we can do whatever we want. I mean if the Na'vi had say Star Trek level technology and the humans had Star Wars technology, would this "noble savage" idea disappear, because they will still be horribly outmatched.

I will refrain from posting spoilers until Friday as per the OP rather than start a new thread. However I will like to just address a few concerns raised in the other thread regarding the trailer. I won't spoil things, so I will just say its been addressed or hasn't.

1. Bubbling idiot jumps in dressed in human clothes trying to do a first contact situation with the Na'vi.
It definitely not how it happened, especially since the Na'vi have been aware of avatars and had contact with humans for some time. Some of them have even been taught how to speak English.

2. Charge of the light brigade - primites ride horse like animals into the face of humans and mecha armed with guns.
This was addressed to my satisfaction. Interpret that to mean what you will until I post further. I am sure by now Wiki would have a synopsis of the story any way.

3. How can people with bows and arrows and a few humans with modern weapons on their side fight more humans armed with aerial vehicles, mecha and guns?
Definitely addressed to my satisfaction.

4. Rar rar military wank, orbital bombardment, wank some more on WMDs.

Seriously, if it wasn't obvious from the trailer that the company was constrained from waging total war given they spend money to create a) Avatars to better interact with the natives b) have Sigourney Weaver's character in charge of finding a diplomatic solution and c) the official website stating the company isn't allowed to have WMDs there really isn't much more I can say to these people except that they should find a sci fi series with superior military tech and go wank to that.

But just in case this wasn't obvious from the trailer, characters do mention a few times their strategy of clearing the Na'vi from where they want to mine which gives you an idea of what tactics they will countenance.

5. I will give you your legs back son
At the very beginning its mentioned the technology exists if you have the cash. Unfortunately his veterans affairs benefits don't cover it.

6. But the humans will just come back.
This was left a bit open ended in my opinion so its possible to do a sequel. However Cameron has mentioned at present he isn't that keen to do one. I will comment more on this later when we are allowed to post spoilers.

[Bounty]

If you were to genre-stamp the movie, what is it? I have seriously no idea what to expect, should I see this movie. Is it an action movie? A drama? Is it Aliens or District 9?

It's a mix of things. Most of it is an adventure movie about how to live on an alien world mixed with some drama, then it turns into an SF action flick for the last 45 minutes.

Think Titanic, except steerage is full of cat people and mecha sink the boat.

[SylasGaunt]

Just saw it today. Wasn't a bad movie. For some reason the 3 D didn't strike me as that much better than the 2 D trailers I had seen. Perhaps the scenes wasn't designed compare to say Disney 3d shows at Disneyworld where characters would frequently shoot things in the audiences direction, so it looked like it was coming right at you. Even when those critters were roaring, or jumping into the audience's direction it just didn't give me the illusion that it was jumping out the screen so to speak.

A lot of 'classier' 3D movies use it to add depth to the movie. It works pretty well I think, both here and in Up which seemed to do much the same thing.

The popping out of the screen thing is a good way to get your 3D accused of being a gimmick.

[mr friendly guy]

Alright so its friday now and I will point out a few spoilers. Once again if you don't want to see look away. Namely in regards to the battle scenes and a bit of the political situation in this setting.
Spoiler

1. The company has initially gone to great lengths to buy the particular Na'vi tribe off. The business manager type character is acutely aware that it "won't look good" if they massacre the natives, so they can't just use orbital bombardment (not that they have the capability anyway). When they do assault the Na'vi village the humans try to assauge their guilt with phrases like "minimising casualties" for the Na'vi. Hey, maybe because while most humans on Pandora wouldn't give two hoots about the Na'vi, its clear that those back home may not share the same view.

Among the things they try to do to get the Na'vi to see things their way is to set up schools teaching them English (so Netyi knew a bit of English already when she encountered Jake), medicine and tried to build roads (which the Na'vi don't want).

So those lets nuke them from orbit wankers with space nerd fantasies of genocide decrying the great big plot hole which only they can see from a 3.5 minute trailer can shove it.

Of course the local manager eventually runs out of patience with trying to find a diplomatic solution.

2. The Na'vi charge on their horse like animals into humans shooting with guns and gets....

gun down and forced to retreat. Thats not to say they don't inflict casualties, but overall it would be a human victory until Captain planet the Na'vi's deity (which most probably the planets consciousness) lends a hand.

So again those huh huh how stupid is a bunch of charging natives going to win against people with guns are wrong again. They don't win. Period.

Tactically I wonder if it made more sense for them to try and shoot arrows from far away once they identify the location of the human forces and try to do a "Hero" or "300" type thing where they block the sky out with arrows (obviously they don't have enough to do that, but you get what I mean). Basically the Na'vi arrows are dipped with a neuro toxin which stops the heart in "one minute", and Pandora has weaker gravity than Earth, so theoretically they can fire from a greater distance.

3. Aerial battles

Because of technobabble environment of Pandora which includes weird and wonderful stuff like floating mountains, in some locations human radar doesn't work so well and their gunships are forced to rely on sight. This gives the Na'vi a slight advantage as they are more familiar with the environment and the humans see them from the same distance.

A few of their flying critters is enough to weigh down smaller gunships, while Jake who has tamed the biggest and baddest of them all can bring one small gunship down by himself. However the critters are defeated when they try to bring down the bigger gunship, ie the one with the big explosive.

So the Na'vi inflict casualties but are beaten off again.

4. Composition of forces

The humans don't seem that numerous, although most of them are ex marines and it seems only a few scientists. In other words a large chunk of the human population are able to fight. The Na'vi most likely can also field a large part of their population since both adult males and females know how to hunt.

There are at least 15 Na'vi tribes although we only see 3 of them, and together Jake said they could field 2000 warriors. Note its unclear whether this is all the Na'vi could field as not all the forces from each tribe may have arrived yet. However the humans were worried if the numbers swell up to the tens of thousands they Na'vi will breach their perimeter. So it seems the humans aren't numerous enough to stop the Na'vi ruining their operations if they just let the Na'vi gather all forces from all Na'vi tribes together. Thus they launch of preemptive strike with shock and awe (yes Cameron was channeling George Bush there).

5. By your powers combine I am captain planet.

Ok so Jake uses his neural interface and talks to theBorg collective Na'vi's sacred tree which has previously absorbed the consciousness of Sigourney Weaver's character Grace (who had been shot and died). He asked the tree to search Grace's memory and gives it a heads up on what the humans plan to do.

Just when it seems like the Na'vi are going to lose the planet summons those charging hammerhead beasties to attack the humans. These beasties are NOT tamed by the Na'vi and its mentioned at the start (ie Jake's first field trip) that their armour is too thick for bullets. Individually these beasties are bigger than a mecha. So the humans who weren't expecting such an attack are overwhelmed on the ground, their weapons having minimal effect while their mecha are crushed. Oh, and the planet also sends those leopard type animals which attacked Jake in the scene where he meets Netyi to finish off the survivors. In other words the humans are beaten by bigger beasties which they weren't expecting to face since the Na'vi could not tame them.

Meanwhile in the air more flying animals swarm the human ships in higher numbers than the Na'vi managed to field and brings down the smaller gunships allowing Jake to....

6. Its Chewbacca and the AT walker all again.

With the smaller escorting gunships out the way, Jake lands on the bigger airships and with some grenades at well place positions manages to bring down one of them, after machine gunning down the humans shooting at him. He moves onto the other big ship carrying the General dude however by turning the ship them manage to cause Jake to lose balance and lose the grenade. So in the end he is forced to smash the propellar to bring down the ship.

7. End of the day.

Humans are rounded up, those scientists are allowed to stay. Corporate and military are sent back to Earth. Will they return? Possibly. IIRC Jake was in cryo suspension for close to 6 years, so the trip takes around that length of time. Also we know the company has invested lots into the venture for very little return. The avatars cost a fortune, such that they got Jake (after his twin brother was killed in a mugging) to pilot the Avatar (because the avatar is designed for individuals, and Jake has the same DNA as his twin) rather than build a new one for a properly trained scientist. Its also mention the economical climate is pretty crap, although that was before Jake left Earth.

In other words, if the economy is still crap one would think the company would find it hard to field another attempt after their first one went so well. But its left open ended enough that a sequel could be done.

I liked the movie. I would give rate it between 7-8 out of 10, and some of these alleged plot holes or stupid things to happen aren't actually there in the movie.

[Bounty]

Spoilers RE: ending
Spoiler

So in the end he is forced to smash the propellar to bring down the ship.

By shoving one of the gunship's own missiles into it. All the big damage done in the final battle (Quaritch' big gunship and the shuttle) is done with human explosives and guns.

It should also be noted that the planet group consciousness thing is something the scientists had discovered earlier; the trees are connected through electrochemical impulses and the local species have the means to connect to each other to share data. Grace outright says that Na'vi have been using this network to upload their ancestors' memories for centuries; they might call it a goddess but it's still a natural phenomenon, and it's heavily implied that the animals turning on the humans in the end is at least partly Grace manipulating the network (at least, that's what I got from Sully hooking up to Eywa and telling it to ask Grace to show it what Earth was like and what humans were capable of).

When they do assault the Na'vi village the humans try to assuage their guilt with phrases like "minimising casualties" for the Na'vi.

Even then they use non-lethal gas first.

It's also worth noting that there is apparently a great deal of awe for Pandora on earth, going by Sully's VO talking about how he heard of it as a child but never dreamt he'd have the chance to visit. If Quaritch' actions become public RDA will have a PR nightmare on its hands.

and tried to build roads (which the Na'vi don't want)

That line neatly shows just to what extent Selfridge didn't understand the planet he was on. Seriously, roads for an arboreal people who can ride flying animals? Was he even listening to himself there?

[PeZook]

Spoiler

So...it's still a deus-ex machina ending, but much better than simply overcoming the enemy with the power of noble savagery

So the scientists are portrayed as the good, sensible guys? If so, Cameron deserves some kudos: few enough Holywood movies have skeptical scientists portrayed positively.

[Companion Cube]

Further spoilers: Spoiler

That line neatly shows just to what extent Selfridge didn't understand the planet he was on. Seriously, roads for an arboreal people who can ride flying animals? Was he even listening to himself there?

Not to mention how he flat-out rejects Augustine's suggestion about the planet-wide network! I suppose that could just show his skepticism regarding her motives.

Other stuff:
During the trailers, I was always wondering why they'd brought along one of their space shuttles to the aerial battle, and why they'd set up bunkers on its back. This actually makes sense, since it has no external armament and needs to be level for them to push out the bomb pallets anyway.

Quaritch is a total bastard. Having doused the Na'Vi with tear gas, he immediately brings their skyscraper-sized home-tree down on them. This qualifies as "relatively humane"?

The whole theatre loved the interactions between Sully and Neytiri, especially the 3-month montage when she teaches him how to shoot, ride and give dead animals their last rites.

For PeZook: Yeah, there's definately a positive portrayal of science in this movie, linked in with the ecological theme and the militarism vs. cooperation theme.

[Andrew_Fireborn]

Spoiler

So... why didn't they disconnect him after he went rogue?... Seems to be the biggest plot hole there...

Although the whole "low-gravity macro-fauna being bullet resistant/immune" strikes me as huge writers fiat... Unless even the mecha and gunships are sporting .22s...

[Companion Cube]

Spoiler

So... why didn't they disconnect him after he went rogue?... Seems to be the biggest plot hole there...

Although the whole "low-gravity macro-fauna being bullet resistant/immune" strikes me as huge writers fiat... Unless even the mecha and gunships are sporting .22s...

Have you seen the film?
Spoiler

The rogue humans move the connection equipment (in a mobile lab) deep into the forest to prevent this.

And the only bullet-resistant wildlife we see are the Titanotheres, which are described as being twice the size of African elephants, and have a massive bony structure protecting their head and shoulders.

[Bounty]

Spoiler

So... why didn't they disconnect him after he went rogue?... Seems to be the biggest plot hole there...

Try watching the movie first?
Spoiler

Security disconnects the team as soon as they figure out Sully's gone native and the science team ends up in the brig, but they're busted out by their chopper pilot, steal an mobile lab and hide in the mountains.

RE animal toughness:
Spoiler

Although the whole "low-gravity macro-fauna being bullet resistant/immune" strikes me as huge writers fiat... Unless even the mecha and gunships are sporting .22s...

The gunships chew through the wildlife just fine. The mecha, however, are only carrying fairly weak machine guns - they're used mostly as power loaders in the movie who do backup security, not war machines.

[neoolong]

It's Friday, so no spoiler hiding.

All in all, all the flaws are correct. Everything you can pretty much throw at it sticks. That said, I liked it a great deal. As a whole it pretty much just worked. The 3D is not the game changer, and I dare say that it would pretty much have been just as good without it. The story's pretty damn simplistic. As was said, things are telegraphed quite a bit.

Fern Gully/Dances with Wolves with a mech knife fight. That's what it is and it delivers. Worthington's accent has gotten a lot better, and I thought he did a fine job. The interplay between him and Saldana's character was entertaining enough, even if it's pretty much your standard "Indian" integration type stuff.

I'm tired, but I think that seeing the midnight showing was well worth it.

[Companion Cube]

Big spoilers! Spoiler

One criticism that might be levelled at the film is that it's patronising to aboriginal cultures; consider that Sully is not only able to tame one of the largest flying beasts on Pandora, but also to call upon the planetary intelligence to give his side a hand in the final battle. He's a better native than the natives! However, I don't think either of these story elements are inappropriate. Consider that the last person to tame one of the giant flyers was a revered ancestor who managed to unite the Na'vi clans. The mythical status of this figure could well prevent any of the Na'vi who have grown up with the legend from trying to duplicate the feat. And as for calling on the planetary network thingy, Neytiri makes it clear that no Na'vi would have bothered, since it "doesn't take sides". She's presumably speaking from the memory of past conflicts which would obviously have been struggles against other Na'vi clans, which don't pose an existential threat to the whole Pandoran biosphere.

[SylasGaunt]

Spoiler

So... why didn't they disconnect him after he went rogue?... Seems to be the biggest plot hole there...

Although the whole "low-gravity macro-fauna being bullet resistant/immune" strikes me as huge writers fiat... Unless even the mecha and gunships are sporting .22s...

Friday so like he said not hiding anymore.

It's worth mentioning that most of the pandoran wildlife is packing bones reinforced with carbon fiber composite, and the Titanothere's front end is covered in a huge mass of bone. But then it's the only thing we see stand up to the 30mm guns on the AMP suits. Smaller guns seem to work fine on everything else except the Thanator.

[mr friendly guy]

Are plot concepts even deus ex machina if they are hinted at early? For example the planetary network was hinted at during Jake's first field trip and Grace tries to convince corporate guy not to blow up the Na'vi's tree because of how complex the planetary network is, ie has more connections than a human brain. It doesn't need exactly a lot of intelligence to figure out danger, must defend myself especially when its metaphorically been warned right to its face.

As to the big animals being bullet proof as writer's fiat, well its less silly if they can come up with some reasonable sounding explanation. As mentioned the wild life bones (including the Na'vi) are reinforced by carbon fiber, while those beasties have quite a lot of it. You could argue, well why did they evolve that way, but then you would most probably be arguing against almost every other alien life in sci fi, in which case why does one even bother with sci fi involving aliens.

[PeZook]

Big spoilers! Spoiler

One criticism that might be levelled at the film is that it's patronising to aboriginal cultures; consider that Sully is not only able to tame one of the largest flying beasts on Pandora, but also to call upon the planetary intelligence to give his side a hand in the final battle. He's a better native than the natives! However, I don't think either of these story elements are inappropriate. Consider that the last person to tame one of the giant flyers was a revered ancestor who managed to unite the Na'vi clans. The mythical status of this figure could well prevent any of the Na'vi who have grown up with the legend from trying to duplicate the feat. And as for calling on the planetary network thingy, Neytiri makes it clear that no Na'vi would have bothered, since it "doesn't take sides". She's presumably speaking from the memory of past conflicts which would obviously have been struggles against other Na'vi clans, which don't pose an existential threat to the whole Pandoran biosphere.

That's actually a common theme in most of these "going native" stories. It's like screenwriters don't realize just how effin' patronizing it is to have the hero effortlessly learn the ways of local people that usually take a lifetime to master for them (and they were fucking born in those conditions, while the hero was just plopped down). The explanation that no native would even try to tame the beastie doesn't really fly: the Na'Vi seem like a stereotypical Indian warrior society, so every once in a while you would inevitably get a young brave foolish enough to try, since success = great status and plenty of women to chose from, while failure means death, which they're rather used to. And they probably get recognition just for trying.

[bz249]

As to the big animals being bullet proof as writer's fiat, well its less silly if they can come up with some reasonable sounding explanation. As mentioned the wild life bones (including the Na'vi) are reinforced by carbon fiber, while those beasties have quite a lot of it. You could argue, well why did they evolve that way, but then you would most probably be arguing against almost every other alien life in sci fi, in which case why does one even bother with sci fi involving aliens.

Too bad carbon fibers are worth exactly shit against steel core full metal jacket bullets... what you need there is good old metal. Carbon fibers are used by the industry because they are very light and compared to their weight they are rather strong. And a contemporary 0.3 rifle is capable penetrating 1" of hardened steel. With tungsten core a bit more.

Making the body of those animals massively redundant, with peculiar anatomy (the guys do not know where to shoot for a kill) is sound. Bulletproof bones are not, unless the animals made of Chobham-armor.

[Companion Cube]

The explanation that no native would even try to tame the beastie doesn't really fly: the Na'Vi seem like a stereotypical Indian warrior society, so every once in a while you would inevitably get a young brave foolish enough to try, since success = great status and plenty of women to chose from, while failure means death, which they're rather used to. And they probably get recognition just for trying.

True. Perhaps an alternative explanation could be that impetuous Na'vi braves who do try to tame the giant go about it using the same techniques as they would to tame one of the smaller ones: they find its nest and go after it on foot, fail, and get eaten. Sully, on the other hand, decided on an unsporting air-to-air attack.

[Bounty]

Note that Sully takes several months to integrate himself into Na'vi society, with intensive help from Neytiri and a shitload of embarrassing failures along the way. He didn't just waltz in.

True. Perhaps an alternative explanation could be that impetuous Na'vi braves who do try to tame the giant go about it using the same techniques as they would to tame one of the smaller ones: they find its nest and go after it on foot, fail, and get eaten. Sully, on the other hand, decided on an unsporting air-to-air attack.

That explains part of it, but the scene to me still felt forced. It was a quick and admittedly impressive way of getting him back into the Na'vi's good graces, but it didn't make for a very plausible plot point.

[mr friendly guy]

That's actually a common theme in most of these "going native" stories. It's like screenwriters don't realize just how effin' patronizing it is to have the hero effortlessly learn the ways of local people that usually take a lifetime to master for them (and they were fucking born in those conditions, while the hero was just plopped down). The explanation that no native would even try to tame the beastie doesn't really fly: the Na'Vi seem like a stereotypical Indian warrior society, so every once in a while you would inevitably get a young brave foolish enough to try, since success = great status and plenty of women to chose from, while failure means death, which they're rather used to. And they probably get recognition just for trying.

Were you watching the same movie we were? I wouldn't say he effortlessly learnt their ways.
a) He didn't have that great a mastery of their language - when he gave his independence day speech he needed another Na'vi to translate for him
b) He is crap and admits to being crap at riding their horse like animals
c) He beats a Na'vi warrior in a fight because of what looks like stock standard human martial arts moves in various action movies rather than because he learnt the Na'vi way of the warrior using their weapons.
d) there is no indication he hunts better than the other Na'vi

The only thing he seems to excel in is flying those banshees.

Too bad carbon fibers are worth exactly shit against steel core full metal jacket bullets... what you need there is good old metal. Carbon fibers are used by the industry because they are very light and compared to their weight they are rather strong. And a contemporary 0.3 rifle is capable penetrating 1" of hardened steel. With tungsten core a bit more.

Making the body of those animals massively redundant, with peculiar anatomy (the guys do not know where to shoot for a kill) is sound. Bulletproof bones are not, unless the animals made of Chobham-armor.

Well most of the other creatures do get killed by bullets despite also having carbon fiber. Its only the big ones which shrug it off. Since you seem to know more about it than me, how thick of carbon fiber does it need to be to survive bullets?

[Zac Naloen]

No film is without flaws, this one too.

It may not even have that much of an original plot.


But 5 times during the film I started to well up with tears, I was well and truly pulled into the universe and the plight of the Na'vi. Simply I loved it from start to finish.