Leopard 2A7I vs RX-78-2 Gundam

[willyvereb]

Tanks vs Mecha debate with a slight twist.

The RX-78-2 Gundam from the original Mobile Suit Gundam engages the Leopard 2A7I tank from Muv-Luv.

The battlefield is a mostly plain land with a few hills, two small forests and with an abandoned village in the middle.
The tank and the Gundam start on the opposite sides of the field, located 10 kilometers from each other.
The Gundam is equipped with a beam rifle and shield.

Which machine would win?

Scenario 1: The Gundam with an unspecified pilot against a single Leopard 2A7I.

Scenario 2: Amuro Ray pilots the RX-78-2 against 10 Leopard 2A7Is. Said tanks are commanded by CREED.

Ladies and gentlemen, place your bets!

[Vendetta]

The Gundam flies above the gun elevation of the tanks? Cause, y'know, it can fly (flying in gravity is harder but Amuro does it semi-regularly, even early on when he's not very good).

[willyvereb]

Just to note, because it's the more obscure unit.
The Leopard 2A7I are very much the same as the Leopard 2A6.
With the following improvements:
- 120 mm cannon up to Muv-Luv firepower standards (meaning it should be able to penetrate Gundarium)
- Anti-laser coating (which should be capable of taking at least 3-5 shots from the Gundam's beam rifle)
- More advanced sensors and electronics (seismic detectors, for example, which can trace movement by ground vibrations)
- Possible use of carbon nanotubes in armor and overall design (making it lighter yet strudier than the original)
- Other minor improvements we don't know much about

The Gundam flies above the gun elevation of the tanks? Cause, y'know, it can fly (flying in gravity is harder but Amuro does it semi-regularly, even early on when he's not very good).

From 10 kilometers?
I seriously doubt that would work.
If anything that would make the Gundam wide open for the Leopard's cannon.
Also you shouldn't forget that this battle would contain a fair amount of "hide&seek".

You're on right track about the Gundam's mobility. It could even bullet time to avoid a straightforward shot.
But on the other hand it's too tall to effectively hide. Broadcasting its presence from almost the get go.
So the tank has the advantage of its relative stealth.
And even a bullet timer can only evade a shot if they have the means to notice it.

So this could become a rather interesting battle.

[Vendetta]

A Gundam is probably not as big as you think it is, (plus, y'know, it can lie down or crouch), we're not talking about super robot size here, it's about the size of a modern jet fighter standing on its tail. At 10km it's not going to be any more easily visible than a tank, especially with intervening terrain taller than it is.

By the time the engagement closes to the natural engagement ranges for tanks the Gundam only needs to be able to reach 1000m altitude, which is frequently does, in order to be above the elevation of the Leo's gun and therefore impossible to attack.

Bear in mind that even in the original MS Gundam it is shown regularly engaging actual aerospace fighters on good terms, indicating reasonable aerial mobility, certainly able to avoid a weapon platform not designed to shoot at air targets, a tank gun.

[Tandrax218]

1on 1 scenario
tank wins

1 on 10 x Creeeed!!

Creed wins and still has 12 tanks from the starting 10 ( 2 being masterfully hidden baneblades in the village)

[OmegaChief]

- Anti-laser coating (which should be capable of taking at least 3-5 shots from the Gundam's beam rifle)

I think it's worth pointing out that Gundam beam weapons are not lasers, they're compressed particle cannons. In fact I think it's specified that Zeon's own anti-laser coatings and defences on their own mobile suits offered absolutely no defence against beam weapons, requiring specific beam resistant coatings to be made.

- More advanced sensors and electronics (seismic detectors, for example, which can trace movement by ground vibrations)

And this brings up one fact I can't help but notice, you're kind of ignoring the issues caused by the Minovsky particle, you know that thing that in the UC timeline basically dictates how battle is fought due to it's debilitating effect on sensors (Even visual!). Though given I suppose we're on a fresh battlefield that hasn't had exposure to them before I don't know how much a single Mobile Suit is going to put out and how that'd influence things, maybe someone who knows more about Gundam can give a better idea of how that would influence things.

If anything that would make the Gundam wide open for the Leopard's cannon.

Well given we've seen Mobile Suits dodge close range wire-guided missiles from positions where they've been 'wide open', it might not be as sure a hit as you think. Also bullet time? I didn't think even Newtypes had that power

I'd also point out the size and limited flight things but Vendetta beat me to those!

[willyvereb]

A Gundam is probably not as big as you think it is, (plus, y'know, it can lie down or crouch), we're not talking about super robot size here, it's about the size of a modern jet fighter standing on its tail. At 10km it's not going to be any more easily visible than a tank, especially with intervening terrain taller than it is.

Well, this is a fight in the plains with only a few hills giving any sorts of elevation.
And yes, being nearly 10 times as tall is a really big deal.
It might not matter that much when there are giant obstacles in a way but that's not the case here.
And crounching/crawl is nice, expect that would take away the Gundam's greatest advantage, its mobility. And its sheer weight would still send massive vibrations for the seismic sensor to pick up.
Think of Elodore from 08th MS Team. That'd be what the Leopard 2A7I is carrying around, in mechanized form.

By the time the engagement closes to the natural engagement ranges for tanks the Gundam only needs to be able to reach 1000m altitude, which is frequently does, in order to be above the elevation of the Leo's gun and therefore impossible to attack.

Bear in mind that even in the original MS Gundam it is shown regularly engaging actual aerospace fighters on good terms, indicating reasonable aerial mobility, certainly able to avoid a weapon platform not designed to shoot at air targets, a tank gun.

Not really.
Modern MBTs can shoot at other tanks from 5+ kilometers, with 4000 kilometers often being an effective range to mission kill an older generation tank.
It also worths noting that Muv-Luv's equivalent of 120mm cannons are massively better, their raw kinetic energy measured in the few gigajoules and shooting projectiles that fly at least with Mach 19 speed.
By our standards it's like a powerful railgun.
Also doing a vertical jump of 1km from 10 kilometers would only require the Leopard to aim its turret upwards by 5.7 degrees.
The Leopard's turret can move up to +20 degrees.
Meaning it's easily within the machine's capacity to aim.
Not to mention the chance of it shooting at the Gundam mid-flight, albeit that might require the tank crew to be aware of the mecha's position beforehand.
Whatever, it still works when the Gundam descends.

But yeah, The Zakus and the Gundam can make jumps that are 1-2 kilometers long.
In MS IGLOO we have Federation-captured Zaku IIs making jump boosts to close about that distance.
On the other hand you're pretty much wrong on the aerial mobility thing.
Fact of the matter, they can barely do more than perform a very long jump.
They can somewhat adjust their fall but that's it.
The reason why Amuro could cut Dopps in half with his Beam Saber because he's just that good.
He still needed the rest of the White Base to cover him in order to not being picked off by the other fighters when he was in freefall.

So you won't see the Gundam bullet timing in the air.
Meaning it's an easy target.

I think it's worth pointing out that Gundam beam weapons are not lasers, they're compressed particle cannons. In fact I think it's specified that Zeon's own anti-laser coatings and defences on their own mobile suits offered absolutely no defence against beam weapons, requiring specific beam resistant coatings to be made.

You're using a false analogy there.
Anti-laser coating in Muv-Luv works pretty much on the same principle as ABC in Gundam Zeta.
It absorbs the beam's energy until it's completely burned off.
On the other hand I was also slightly wrong with the number of shots.
The Leopard has TSF-grade anti-laser coating so it can only withstand the Heavy Lasers for a second.
Which would allow it to withstand 1 or maybe 2 beam rifle shots before making the tank vulnerable.

And this brings up one fact I can't help but notice, you're kind of ignoring the issues caused by the Minovsky particle, you know that thing that in the UC timeline basically dictates how battle is fought due to it's debilitating effect on sensors (Even visual!). Though given I suppose we're on a fresh battlefield that hasn't had exposure to them before I don't know how much a single Mobile Suit is going to put out and how that'd influence things, maybe someone who knows more about Gundam can give a better idea of how that would influence things.

Where the hell did you get the bolded part?
Minovsky Particles are a concern, but only when broadcasted in massive quantities.
I doubt the Gundam's ultra-compact reactor can do that.
But even if it does you're honestly exaggerating its effects.
Minovsky particles reflect radiowaves thus making radar and communications difficult.
But no, they need to be packed in absurd density to block visible light and infrared rays (like an I-field does).
Why do you think both the Federation and Zeon are using laser comms?
If Minovsky Particles really distort light then those would be similarly useless.
Anyways, Minovsky particles also have an electric charge so their secondary effect is to work like a weak EMP, firing unshielded electronics.
That's why guided weapons are ineffective in the verse.
Of course that won't be a concern for even a real life Leopard 2.

So yeah, let's leave this part out of the debate.

[/quote]
Well given we've seen Mobile Suits dodge close range wire-guided missiles from positions where they've been 'wide open', it might not be as sure a hit as you think. Also bullet time? I didn't think even Newtypes had that power

I'd also point out the size and limited flight things but Vendetta beat me to those![/quote]They have even better feats than that.
In MS IGLOO a nameless Zaku mook dodges a shell after the shot left the tank's barrel.
But like I explained above, it won't help the Gundam while it's in mid-jump.

[Vendetta]

Modern MBTs can shoot at other tanks from 5+ kilometers, with 4000 kilometers often being an effective range to mission kill an older generation tank.
It also worths noting that Muv-Luv's equivalent of 120mm cannons are massively better, their raw kinetic energy measured in the few gigajoules and shooting projectiles that fly at least with Mach 19 speed.
By our standards it's like a powerful railgun.

A Challenger did that once in perfect conditions, against an enemy with no countermeasures. 5km should not be considered normal engagement range for tanks, especially not against a target which naturally resists EM and IR targetting systems (and yes, the minovsky effect occurs as a result of mobile suit reactors, if it didn't it would be irrelevant to the series because most of it takes place in locations with no other significant power generation, and it does fade over time).

Also doing a vertical jump of 1km from 10 kilometers would only require the Leopard to aim its turret upwards by 5.7 degrees.
The Leopard's turret can move up to +20 degrees.
Meaning it's easily within the machine's capacity to aim.

Except it won't acquire the target that quickly because the systems it relies on to do that are being interfered with.

But yeah, The Zakus and the Gundam can make jumps that are 1-2 kilometers long.

Amuro uses it to actually fly in gravity in just about the first episode after they return to earth.


The point remains, this is tank vs. target that can fly above its gun elevation, which it can't use anything other than visual target acquisition to aim at.

[Connor MacLeod]

First things first, putting this as 'tanks vs mechs' is pretty much a guaranteed way to poison the well in this discussion, because that will predispose people to think of it as 'tank vs tank on legs' Which is not really how a mobile suit is designed to operate (its more a space fighter with legs. and arms.) and the way it operates and fights has more in common with a space fighter than a tank.

secondly 10 km is rather long range even for modern weaponry, which is one reason why it so often involves guided missiles (even tank launched projectiles are guided to gain that sort of range, like the MRM munitions or LAHAT.) Mobile suits are known to engage at that range (although accuracy with projectiles and beams can be bad, as per 08th MS Team in the atmosphere at least.) Unless you're trying to think they're chucking 5-10 km/s projectiles at each other.

And ANOTHER point about gauging tank weapon firepower is.. its complex. So much of it hinges on (and is limited by) recoil, and that can depend on the kind of cannon (what propulsive method it uses, efficiencies, calibre, etc.) as well as target nature. Modern tanks do not go for super-huge velocities (much past 2-2.5 km/s at that) because the means by which they penetrate has a point of diminishing returns when it comes to velocity - past a certain point making it go faster actually makes your penetration worse (which IIRC is tied in with hypervelocity impacts and such.) which is one reason why bigger/heavier projectiles using high density materials is such a big deal. Simply comparing KE/momentum/force of a projectile, or giving it a bigger projectile (or one moving faster, or both) does not automatically make said tank weapon superior, and the recoil issues for a tank of a given mass can be a pretty negative tradeoff even if it does (especially for solid propellant weapons.)

[OmegaChief]

On the other hand you're pretty much wrong on the aerial mobility thing.
Fact of the matter, they can barely do more than perform a very long jump.

Something that's bugging me about your take on Mobile Suit aerial capabilities here Willy, specifically, why are you under the impression the Gundam's thrusters or limbs (AMBAC is admittedly designed for Zero G environments, but sky divers us a similar principle to guide their falls!) stop working when it's mid air? There's nothing stopping it from making mid-air flight path corrections here, so it's not like it's going to be on an easily predictable arc to expose itself to enemy fire here... well I guess maybe if we give it a really stupid pilot...

He still needed the rest of the White Base to cover him in order to not being picked off by the other fighters when he was in freefall

Because being overwhelmed by a greater number of more agile targets when you can't keep up sustained high altitude flight can't possibly be a more reasonable explanation here right?

Where the hell did you get the bolded part?

Ack, I can't actually recall the source for that one off the top of my head, going to have to go digging for it, I think we see it displayed in one episode of 08th MS Team? But the principle comes from the fact that the Minovsky effect causes distortions on the EM spectrum, which as you know, visible light is part of! I think it manifests as sort of like a heat-haze at longer distances making long range sniping unreliable against mobile suits! Again, I think, I fully admit I may not be correct on the specifics here until I dig through my sources some more.

But in any case, I think totally ignoring one of the big defining things about the entire UC setting is a bit... well cherry picking to get the result you want?

Though onto other topics, now that we're fleshing out capabilities a little more, it's looking a lot like the first person to land a hit on the enemy is going to win here... though if you don't get a Torso shot on the Gundam then it's still a pretty capable combatant! Heck the RX-78-2 has a Core Fighter even

[Stark]

With the following improvements:
- 120 mm cannon up to Muv-Luv firepower standards (meaning it should be able to penetrate Gundarium)

Oh rly?

- Anti-laser coating (which should be capable of taking at least 3-5 shots from the Gundam's beam rifle)

You mean the rifle that isn't even slowed down by hitting space battleships and that is not a laser? What's this '3-5 shots' thing from? Did you just make it up?

- More advanced sensors and electronics (seismic detectors, for example, which can trace movement by ground vibrations)

Oh dearrrrrr

- Possible use of carbon nanotubes in armor and overall design (making it lighter yet strudier than the original)

Holy shit I was warned but I still can't believe it! CARBON NANOTUBES!

- Other minor improvements we don't know much about

Thanks for letting us know then, I guess.

So it's a tank, with tanklike movement and mobility with good bullets. Since the only relevant interaction is what happens if the Gundam is hit, maybe you should talk about its fire control etc, because otherwise it's going to come down to the usual stuff around position, tactics, etc. Out in the open, I think Vendetta is being too generous; the Gundam can just use its agility and one-shot the tank with its retardedly powerful particle beam.

But I'm being a bit optimistic asking these questions of someone who just made a 'versus' thread and said 'armour will obviously defeat weapon' and 'weapon will obviously defeat armour' with quite literally no evidence at all.

[Connor MacLeod]

Frankly if we were just going to go by arbitrary firepower standards we know Gundamverse tanks are like in the 155-175 mm range and can travel (as per 08th MS Team) anywhere from 2-10 km/s, so if thats all that was relevant it could probably be very easily resolved. lol.

[Stark]

I'm curious why there's no mention of the Gundam's shield; it is often shown to be even more resilient than the suits armour itself, and we see suits flying with the shield covering their entire exposed profile except the head camera. It'd certainly make Vendetta's 'fly out of arc and lol' plan a lot safer, if its effective against super tank bullets.

[Connor MacLeod]

Well there is the shield but there's lots more to it, because they can angle the shield obviously so its a sloped surface, but there's also the fact we dont know if Gundams are designed to take direct or glancing hit.s I could buy they're designed to avoid direct hits and survive glancing hits rather than simply slug it out with tanks or other shit. Like I said, its a space fighter with arms and legs. Mobile suits originated in space (with Zeon) and the Federation sort of played catch up, but their primary role is space warfare and thats where they excel. So being 'less capable' in the atmosphere compared to a tank would be not that big a shock and hardly worth criticism, any more than sticking a tank in space and expecting it to do well would.

Its even kinda funny since as has been noted before there are lots of examples even in Gundam where tanks triumph over Mobile suits. It does happen the other way too (IGLOO) but IIRC its in a very specific set of circumstances.

[Atia]

- 120 mm cannon up to Muv-Luv firepower standards (meaning it should be able to penetrate Gundarium)

It really should be pointed out that the Zaku II main weapon is a 120mm cannon and it's been shown to do fuck all against a Gundam but scuff the pain a little. So there is no guarantee that it will penetrate Gundariam.

[Stark]

In fairness, those guns appear to fire mostly HE shells (given the enormous, tank-throwing explosions). Muv Luv projectiles could well be more effective... not that we'd know because there's no information in the thread. :V

[Connor MacLeod]

I'm also not sure that just because its the right caliber means its = tank gun either. I mean there's other stuff to compare, like barrel length, do they use sub-calibre/full calibre ammo, or whatever.

Plus, whilst they are machine guns, they are as subject to recoil as any other gun. Depending on ROF their performance may be less than modern tank guns (to compsenate for the increased ROF - scoring hits may matter more than penetration, depending on how Gundams are designed.)

As a side note: This is WHY numbers are not easy, despite people insisting they are or accusing me of over thinking this. A big number for energy can, depending on how the weapon works and various other parameters, that its a really powerful gun, or its just horribly inefficient at what it does. And even if you have two beam weapons that have the same enegy output, if one of them operates via a succession of energy pulses explosively vaporizing (or converting to plasma) the target, it will be considerably more powerufl than a weapon that wastes that energy in melting/vaporizing the target. Context matters.

[Jub]

So, willyvereb, what exactly is the point to this thread? It can't be for treating the topic as a legitimate debate because the scenario as it stands is pointless when one side is defined and one side is constantly being tweaked to balance it and it obviously isn't for a general discussion of mechs vs. tanks.

You could have picked actually sci-fi tanks to compare to common sci-fi mechs if you wanted a versus battle. On the flip side you could have simply asked what situations are better suited to tanks and which are better suited to mecha.

Figure out what you want to know and this board can likely talk about it.

[Stark]

With threads of this type, I'm interested why people generally pick the original Gundam as their example. Sure, it was a hero robit in 1979, but even by Gundam standards internally it's not very interesting. Most modern anime viewers or robit enthusasts might not even know anything about it or ever have seen it in action. I uncharitably think this is why its chosen, as a weak example of robits, when they could pit a tank (for instance) against a Delta Plus or Asshimar (ie suits designed for combat in atmosphere) and it'd be utterly hilarious because they're essentially aircraft.

But frankly without actual information about Muv Luv (a universe I know very little about) simply saying it's a redesigned Leopard with magic bullets and CARBON NANOTUBES doesn't help anyone determine anything. At its core this kind of 'open field lol' bullshit is thoroughly uninteresting, because in a vs either one side is immune to the other (which the OP tries to suggest is the case) or it comes down quite a bit to situational, doctrinal, and tactical considerations rather than PEW PEW GIGATONS. I mean shit, if Amuro is piloting the Gundam it is driven by psychic space jesus, which might give it a slightly unfair advantage. :V

[Vendetta]

- 120 mm cannon up to Muv-Luv firepower standards (meaning it should be able to penetrate Gundarium)

It really should be pointed out that the Zaku II main weapon is a 120mm cannon and it's been shown to do fuck all against a Gundam but scuff the pain a little. So there is no guarantee that it will penetrate Gundariam.

Y'know, reading the link he provided, it looks like the weapon system is actually just a straight up modern Leopard 2A7 with fancy laser resistant paint, there's absolutely no mention of the tank guns being upgraded in any way, and the standard weapon used in-verse by their robits is actually a 36mm autocannon.

Which means that the cannon in question is actually the Rheinmetall 120mm L55 Smoothbore fitted to the current generation Leopards.

I can't be really bothered to scale a Zaku machinegun, but I'd say they're around L36 or so from eyeballing, so the modern tank gun would have better performance given the same shell, but we don't know how much propellant/penetrator technology has changed in the UC timeline.

[Vendetta]

With threads of this type, I'm interested why people generally pick the original Gundam as their example.

Look, OP doesn't want Lockon to snipe the tank from orbit.

[Stark]

It seems clear that in OYW period the 120mm generally used HE or HEAP shells, with heaps of blast force and flash. They have enough boom to blow a turret off a tank, but they do basically nothing to the Gundam with its armour. Zeon wasn't aware of the metallurgical advances that made it possible, I think, so they equipped their ground force Zakus to fight parity enemies rather than give them huge penetration. I'm not sure if you can discount that a modern kinetic penetrator might be effective against a Gundam, since I'm not sure anyone hits one with any.

[Gunhead]

It seems clear that in OYW period the 120mm generally used HE or HEAP shells, with heaps of blast force and flash. They have enough boom to blow a turret off a tank, but they do basically nothing to the Gundam with its armour. Zeon wasn't aware of the metallurgical advances that made it possible, I think, so they equipped their ground force Zakus to fight parity enemies rather than give them huge penetration. I'm not sure if you can discount that a modern kinetic penetrator might be effective against a Gundam, since I'm not sure anyone hits one with any.

HEAP would be total crap against any type of serious armor. HEAP is a HE round with an light armor penetrating tip and I'm not totally sure this type of round was ever widely fielded and even if it was, it would be suited to anti aircraft and anti vehicle work. You sure it's not HEAT, HESH or maybe APHE?

-Gunhead

[Stark]

Lol, yeah. HEAT is what I meant. They probably have regular APDS ammo for the 120mm, but think you could only tell by the lack of huge explosions when it's fired. The Federation suits and later Zeon suits use 80-100mm weapons that don't have huge explosions but are just as good against most targets, so I assume the 120mm is just packed with explosives most of the time.

[Gunhead]

Lol, yeah. HEAT is what I meant. They probably have regular APDS ammo for the 120mm, but think you could only tell by the lack of huge explosions when it's fired. The Federation suits and later Zeon suits use 80-100mm weapons that don't have huge explosions but are just as good against most targets, so I assume the 120mm is just packed with explosives most of the time.

Thought so. Then again, I have to say APDS FTW doesn't always hold true. If you're looking for massive after armor effects, a full bore AP round will seriously fuck up anything it hits provided it can penetrate the armor of the target. Which is something to remember when talking about future fantastic vehicles which easily lack internally stored fuel and ammunition, which are the reasons why depleted uranium shots are so effective combined with their penetrating power and are used as the main type of anti armor round in tanks today.

-Gunhead