Doctor Who S32e5 "Rebel Flesh" [Spoilers]

[Crazedwraith]

I think Necronlord's been raptured...

***

Not bad episode, wasn't hard to see what the cliffhanger was going to be though.

I do hope they're not going to kill off Rory, again

[Broomstick]

Yeah, I'm getting a little tired of how they're always killing Kenny Suzy Rory. That sort of thing gets old fast.

Still waiting on access to the episode here - soooo annoying.

[Captain Seafort]

Not bad episode, wasn't hard to see what the cliffhanger was going to be though.

3, I reckon. The problem is that the entire episode is virtually a repeat of part one of last year's Silurian two-parter, and it's giving me much the same vibes. It might buck up and provide something decent, or it might be another Cold Blood. I hope to Christ it's not the latter.

I do hope they're not going to kill off Rory, again

At least they recognise that it's starting to get daft.

[NecronLord]

I think Necronlord's been raptured...

Out on a date, I'm afraid. Still here.

[Bedlam]

I though it was fairly good. An interesting idea and I'd like to see where they go with it a suversion of the normal evil duplicates just wanted to kill the originals.

Nice to see Rory actually get some time in the spot light and his own semi love interest, maybe Amy will start treating him better from now on.

I'm going to call in advance that I think the Rory and Amy we've followed so far as dupluicates, I might be wrong but they woke up in the vat chamber, dont know what happened to the originals though.

I also think the change in the doctors footware will be important as well, I'd guess the duplicate is still wearing shoe's where as the original now has boots, someone will notice this right at the end showing that their dealing with the duplicate.

[Broomstick]

Great – I announce to the world “It's Doctor Who time!” and what happens? My spouse keeps trying to hold a conversation about other stuff and my parrot keeps trying to remove my headset. >sigh< As if I don't have enough trouble getting to see the show. Anyhow, not the strongest story, but then, it has the misfortune to follow “The Doctor's Wife”. Not as bad as Doctor Who Meets Pirates of the Caribbean, at least the rationale for making the flesh people makes some sense.

I'm not sure how much good those acid suits actually do – I guess they're more for protection against vapor than the actual stuff?

Ah, nice domestic scene in the TARDIS, although I'm getting a little tired of the Schroedinger Pregnancy. Nice irony with Amy saying “Whatever you're doing I want to be part of it,” as the Doctor's face implies that yes, she is part of it, but he doesn't want to tell her that. Though these two companions are probably two of the very few who have as many secrets from the Doctor (spoilers!) as he does from them. And we have yet another ship without seatbelts. But why should that surprise me? It's not like the TARDIS has ever had seatbelts, right?

But it was sweet when Amy kissed Rory's finger to make it all better.... I am actually pleased at the Rory love shown in this episode. He's being sensible. He's being kind. He didn't die. And he's pouring out the empathy: “I thought I was going to die”/ “Welcome to my world.” I think Rory's 2k years as a plastic copy is giving him a unique insight to this predicament. I would really like that to be a key part of this story. It was so touching to have him go after Flesh Jennifer after she scared the living piss out of him, she scared him but he didn't reject her as a person. I also thought for a moment he was channeling the Tennant doctor (“Amy's a lucky girl.” / “Well.... yeah.” with the inflection 10 used to use). Actually, he's acting rather Doctor-like the way he protects Flesh Jennifer, don't you think? And bravo, Rory, for tackling the Insanely Scared Lady with the Cattle Prod! I just hope he doesn't eventually get killed for good one day playing hero like that.

Amy going after Rory, yes, let's have her act like she actually cares about her husband.

Did you notice that when the Doctor first runs into the harness room he's looking around, as if looking for something... or someone? He clearly either suspects or knows someone in the room is a ganger. And he seems to know who is and who isn't. How does he know that?

Let's see – contrived emergency... check... I am really glad they didn't leave the door of the TARDIS open (ew)... and the Doctor takes another improbably high fall. What's the deal with that? Gallifreyans bounce or something?

What's the deal with the guy who keeps sneezing? You know that's going to be important.

But, you know – the doctor when into the chapel at the end and he knew his doppelganger would be there. He triggered its formation. He shouldn't have looked so surprised. You'd think a man who had changed his entire body ten times over wouldn't be looking so squicked.

It's a damned sneaky way to have a multi-Doctor episode next week.

[Broomstick]

I'm going to call in advance that I think the Rory and Amy we've followed so far as dupluicates, I might be wrong but they woke up in the vat chamber, dont know what happened to the originals though.

Hadn't thought of that. I'm a little inclined to doubt it, as neither has been in one of the harnesses, nor did they touched it/sonic it like the Doctor did.

I also think the change in the doctors footware will be important as well, I'd guess the duplicate is still wearing shoe's where as the original now has boots, someone will notice this right at the end showing that their dealing with the duplicate.

Could be, although clearly it's no secret (to the humans, at least) there's a ganger Doctor around. The trailer shows two Doctors traveling with the same group, at least for awhile. It also implies Flesh Doctor (um... that sounds dirty but it isn't) will be having a bit of an identity crisis or something at some point.

How they wrap up the plot will be the make-or-break for this story. So far so good, looking forward to next week.

[Broomstick]

Hey... is the "flesh" in this episode any relation to the "flesh" the cat people used to grow the diseased people in "New Earth" way back in Series 2?

[NecronLord]

And we have yet another ship without seatbelts. But why should that surprise me? It's not like the TARDIS has ever had seatbelts, right?

I think the ninth doctor one may have had a lap belt on its car seats, but I'm not sure.

Let's see – contrived emergency... check... I am really glad they didn't leave the door of the TARDIS open (ew)...

I suspect they might get back in by the Doctor borrowing an acid suit and clicking his fingers to get sucked down, actually.

[Minischoles]

3, it was alright, but very formulaic. It was like the writer went through a list of things to include in a two parter to build suspense, and just went through checking them off. Most of the events were telegraphed completely, such as Cleeves (?) being Flesh when he meets her after being knocked out, and the solar storm arriving.

I don't know about anyone else, but when they were wearing those acid suits and marching around, I got a definite Sontaran vibe from them.

[DarkSilver]

interesting set up.

The entire episode my mind kept screaming "Nestzine Consciousness", as in this is the begining of the Nestzine (Sp?) from the episode Rose.


A set up episode, gave it a three.

[Drooling Iguana]

interesting set up.

The entire episode my mind kept screaming "Nestzine Consciousness", as in this is the begining of the Nestzine (Sp?) from the episode Rose.


A set up episode, gave it a three.

The Nestene Consciousness was around for more than thirty years before "Rose" aired. It first appeared in the episode "Spearhead from Space" in 1970.

[Bedlam]

But why should that surprise me? It's not like the TARDIS has ever had seatbelts, right?.

I think some seatbelts turned up in one of the Colin Baker stories, Vengence on Varos I think.

[Lord Woodlouse]

OK ep, seemed a bit off somehow though. :/

[El Moose Monstero]

Usual Doctor Who first parter - lots of setup, not much else. The episode flew by and I can't honestly say that anything interesting really happened.

And I am not going to be happy if they make us sit through a load of dramangst over 'Amy is jealous because Rory is looking after someone else'. I'm not going to be pleased. It was heavily signposted this episode, but I can seriously live without it, thank you.

[Revy]

And I am not going to be happy if they make us sit through a load of dramangst over 'Amy is jealous because Rory is looking after someone else'. I'm not going to be pleased. It was heavily signposted this episode, but I can seriously live without it, thank you.

Really? I honestly thought they were going to go for that, but Amy seemed like such a nonentity this episode that to me she didn't seem jealous or troubled by it at all. In fact she didn't seem anything other than bland. I really got the feeling she was phoning this episode in. It comes to something in an episode when I actually notice Rory more than I do Amy. You could remove her from this episode and nothing much would change.

Gave it a 3, and if part two turns out bad I'd retcon that score down to a 2. Didn't really hate it but didn't like it much either. The gangers seem to have serious mood swings. Ganger Jenny (was that her name?) went from scared to angry to scared to 'war! Rar!'. That's worse than my mood swings. Really though, maybe it's just me but I would actually get along quite well with a duplicate/clone of myself. I mean she'd have all the same tastes and opinions as me, we'd agree about everything. Still, I guess they need drama. Can't make an episode out of everyone geting along. Seems forced though. Maybe if there was some kind of legal legisation that says that living gangers must be terminated, or are classed as company property?

The Doctor seemed ... off about something. Does anyone remember what he said about 'old technology' or something? He said something that caused Amy and someone else to get suspicious of him, like he knew more than he was letting on, and he sidestepped their questions. What was that all about? Did he come to that place for a reason? Why was the Doctor acting kinda shifty at times?

... oh! Thought! What if the Doctor we saw die in Impossible Astronaut was a ganger? Is that possible? Maybe the Doctor wanted to fake his death somehow, so he remote controlled a ganger duplicate and let it get shot to make the Silence that was watching them think he had died for real? Come to think of it, does anyone think ganger Doctor will be able to regenerate? I wouldn't have thought so. Hmm.

[evilsoup]

That really depend on how regeneration works. If it is purely biological, then the Flesh is '100% programmable'. If it's related to the TARDIS/Time Vortex/some other tech., then it would be a bit more complicated (but still not impossible, given that this is the Doctor we're talking about).

[Revy]

When it came to the Doctor's clone daughter, he said there was more to being a Time Lord than just DNA. She didn't totally regenerate when she died, but she did so something similar to it. Maybe it's part natural ability augmented by Time Lord science/tech? Either way I am sure the Doctor we saw die at the start of the season was a ganger. It's the simplest and easiest explanation by far. That's where I'm putting my money.

[HMS Sophia]

It could easily have been a similar regeneration to Jenny's. After all, we didn't see future doctor change did we?
So I would say... maybe...

[Gurachn]

And I am not going to be happy if they make us sit through a load of dramangst over 'Amy is jealous because Rory is looking after someone else'. I'm not going to be pleased. It was heavily signposted this episode, but I can seriously live without it, thank you.

I hear you there!
Though I also didn't seem much evidence of jealously on Amy's part.

Rory showed an interesting side to his character in this one.
It seems to me the primary characteristic of his personality up till now has been his insecurity.
He fully realizes that he isn't particularly intelligent, brave, capable or even very interesting. His massive inferiority complex includes not only the doctor, but also Amy, who he realizes is more decisive and heroic than himself.
I'm guessing that he hasn't had much experience with women, and that even now is more than a little unsure of both how he managed to snag Amy, and whether she truly cares about him as much as he does for her.
This makes him not only cling to her, but I believe it also makes him a bit resentful.

So when he encounters Jennifer, who is not only more insecure and lost than he is, but also reasonably cute, I think he finds it an attractive mix.
Not only that, but suddenly here is someone who clearly regards him as both attractive and heroic.
The result is that we suddenly we see him taking her side against Amy, gravitating closely to her and even holding her hand (perhaps unconsciously trying to foment a bit of jealousy?) and even taking on an uncharacteristically forceful and heroic roles in defending her ('Nobody touches her!') and attacking Cleaves.

Up until now, imo, his one redeeming characteristic has been his supposedly unshakeable love for Amy, but now I question how much of that was due to the fact that secretly he believed that getting Amy was the most import and worthy achievement of his life.
Perhaps his true feeling is less love, than a deep-seated dread that without her, he would be basically insignificant.
This would certainly explain his clear gravitation to a cute girl who seems to be attracted to him for his own attributes. I think he secretly believes that Amy is far above his league, and realizes that someone like Jennifer would be a much more satisfying match.

Frankly I wouldn't mind seeing them matched up, and Rory's character apologetically (but contendedly) retired to a calm life free of gratuitious-deaths.
Unfortunately, I suspect Jen will be conveniently killed off to remove poor Rory from temptation.

[Iroscato]

When it came to the Doctor's clone daughter, he said there was more to being a Time Lord than just DNA. She didn't totally regenerate when she died, but she did so something similar to it. Maybe it's part natural ability augmented by Time Lord science/tech? Either way I am sure the Doctor we saw die at the start of the season was a ganger. It's the simplest and easiest explanation by far. That's where I'm putting my money.

I already know how the Doctor skates around his death, but I'm not telling

Also, this episode wasn't bad, but felt a little forced and rushed, but overall quite good. The only thing I'm getting sick of is seeing the Doctor get seperated from the TARDIS AGAIN. It's the third time in a row this has happened in this series. What used to be a good way of making the Doc helpless has now become a bit overused.

[NecronLord]

Amy, who he realizes is more decisive and heroic than himself.

Rory, not heroic? What?



He was pretty much the more decisive and heroic one last episode too, keeping Amy moving at least once.

He's grown a lot since we first met him, rather like how Mickey Smith went from sobbing at the sight of the TARDIS to a cyberman-hunting leader of men.

[Broomstick]

Revy, you are the second person I've seen bring up the possibility that it was a ganger Doctor shot during the beginning of "The Impossible Astronaut".

It could clear up some problems.

1) How The Doctor lasted 200 years on one regeneration - assuming that wasn't a blatant lie, but let's go with it for now. Since Two he's been lucky to go even 10 years in a body, much less 200 years. That has bothered me since the series opener. But, if gangers are in some way more durable (possible, with their flesh being at least potentially more malleable) then maybe a ganger Doctor could last 200 years. Hell, maybe even 1103 years since crawling out of a vat of goo. We just don't know.

2) It would explain why an older Doctor doesn't look older. Obviously, he can regenerate to a younger appearance but the 1103 year old Doctor hadn't regenerated, and we know that, while they age slowly, Time Lords do, in fact act. But would a ganger Doctor age at all?

3) If it was the ganger Doctor being shot could it be the original Doctor in the moon suit doing the shooting? In which case they both deserve that slap from River.

4) Why the companions had to be discouraged from looking too closely, but urged to burn the body immediately - I'm guessing River's scanner whatsit could distinguish between a ganger Doctor and a genuine Gallifreyan if she looked closely enough, and that couldn't be allowed to happen.

BUT - why the hell would a ganger Doctor agree to a course of action that results in his certain death? Because it seems obvious that the 1103 Doctor knew he was going to his death. Also, there's the regeneration issue. Would a ganger Doctor regenerate? Could the effect be faked? (Almost certainly - just need a little golden glowy stuff from Sexy Thing).

The ganger Doctor isn't a ganger like the other ones - he has never been controlled by anyone, for starters. The Doctor sonic'ed him out of the goo, but from the start ganger Doctor has been his own man and controlled by no one. Somehow, I don't think he'd submit to the original Doctor strapping on a harness and and attempting to control him. I also have trouble imagining the Doctor doing that to a copy of himself that he sees as a fellow sentient being. If that was the ganger Doctor in S06E01 he had to be a willing collaborator.

Really though, maybe it's just me but I would actually get along quite well with a duplicate/clone of myself. I mean she'd have all the same tastes and opinions as me, we'd agree about everything.

Oh, gosh, I don't think I could stand living with a duplicate of myself. Neither of us would want to do housework, for starters. The arguments would be both loud and epic. We'd definitely have to go off and live separately, then there's the issue of who'd get the spouse, as there is only one of him....

The Doctor seemed ... off about something. Does anyone remember what he said about 'old technology' or something?

He said it was early in the technology, there was still so much to learn.

Of course the Doctor knows more than he's letting on, that's the usual state of affairs, but in this episode it appears that they didn't arrive by accident and he really does know more about these particular events than he's saying.

From the trailer it does look like ganger Doctor is also prone to mood swings and instability though, of course, that could be deliberately misleading.

I rewatched the episode this morning, and noted that before the original Doctor started demanding "show yourself!" there was a female voice which might have been Jennifer (could be either one) wailing the word "WHY?" Did the Doctor think there was someone else besides his ganger there? Human Jennifer (I think it was human Jennifer) had gone into the chapel and, while we didn't see him, she saw the ganger Doctor, likely in an even less congealed state than we did, and ran back out of the room. I believe that's the one Rory heard and went after. We see ganger Jennifer above a doorway as those two run by. The other gangers are in acid suits marching down the hallway.... so who else was in the chapel? Or are we overhearing Jennifers with Rory?

[Broomstick]

I already know how the Doctor skates around his death, but I'm not telling

Damn you! How could you know that?

[Broomstick]

Rory showed an interesting side to his character in this one.
It seems to me the primary characteristic of his personality up till now has been his insecurity.
He fully realizes that he isn't particularly intelligent, brave, capable or even very interesting. His massive inferiority complex includes not only the doctor, but also Amy, who he realizes is more decisive and heroic than himself.

Oh, please - Rory isn't the smartest one of the bunch, and maybe not particularly capable, but dammit he CARES about people. He's a freakin NURSE! That's what he does, he takes care of people. His job is taking care of sick, helpless people (remember, when we first meet him it's in a coma ward). Remember that, I think it's an important part of the character.

So when he encounters Jennifer, who is not only more insecure and lost than he is, but also reasonably cute, I think he finds it an attractive mix.
Not only that, but suddenly here is someone who clearly regards him as both attractive and heroic.
The result is that we suddenly we see him taking her side against Amy, gravitating closely to her and even holding her hand (perhaps unconsciously trying to foment a bit of jealousy?) and even taking on an uncharacteristically forceful and heroic roles in defending her ('Nobody touches her!') and attacking Cleaves.

I think it's more what he told Amy in the hallway just before the Doctor enters with the rest of the gangers: "I can see she needs help." Rory helps people and he protects people, especially the helpless. Good lord, he spent two thousand years guarding Amy in the Pandorica, and granted that's because he loved her and he's got loyalty that makes the average faithful hound look fickle as hell but it's also because he protects and helps people. That's a huge part of who he is. In the mundane world that resulted in a nursing career, but charging about in the TARDIS it's starting to manifest as him defending the helpless and scared. AND charging at someone armed with a lethal weapon, tackling her, and disarming her.

I also believe that Rory's experience as a Nestene/Auton is playing into this - he remembers being a copy of himself and had a lot of time to think it over. He absolutely is in the best position to empathize and understand the ganger viewpoint, how confused, disorienting, and frightening it is to be simultaneously yourself and not yourself. He's not stupid about it - when ganger Jennifer is going nuts and punching holes in stuff he runs, it's the only sensible thing to do, but he comes back and he treats her as a person. Why? He's been there himself. He understands.

Unfortunately, I suspect Jen will be conveniently killed off to remove poor Rory from temptation.

All too likely, I agree.

I'd also like to point out another thing about Rory - he's lamented several times that he's a nurse but he hasn't been able to save people from dying. The Doctor gets shot dead in front of him (and everyone else) and he's in as much shock as anyone else and does nothing. There's not much for him to do in the pirate episode other than get stupid when the siren is around, so ignore that. In "The Doctor's Wife", though, Idris/TARDIS dies in his arms. There wasn't anything he could do but that's still got to hurt. In fact, he even said that, explicitly, at the end when he admitted her death was bothering him. (I still think the Doctor should have pointed out Sexy isn't dead, the TARDIS matrix was in fact back where she belonged and still as alive as she ever was, but whatever)

So, Rory's nursing skills aren't doing anyone much good right now - when they do encounter injuries they're worse than anything he can handle with no equipment anyhow. But Rory still wants to protect and take care of people, not because he's a nurse, but because that part of his personality is what lead him to nursing. It's still there. So, poor ganger Jennifer is having a crisis he can totally relate to, she's frightened, in danger - yeah, Rory is going to protect her. He's figuring out that sometimes something needs to be done before someone gets hurt, or before more people get hurt than are already lying on the ground.

The scene towards the end, when the Doctor is pulling Amy into the chapel and Amy is begging Rory to come with them and Rory says he's going after Jennifer - he tells the Doctor "I know you understand". The Doctor does understand, because what does the Doctor do? He defends the helpless and tries to make things better. He knows what's motivating Rory and that Rory isn't going to budge on this, so he pulls Amy into the chapel and shuts the door.

Amy is going "OMG! OMG! We don't have this or that and we can't this or that!" while Rory is out trying to actually do something to help someone else.

Rory is becoming more and more like the Doctor. It's not Rory's intelligence, or what technology he has, or whatever, it's that Rory is trying to take care of people and make things better, even at risk to himself. Of course, Rory did that last season, but while guarding the Pandorica he just had to avoid trouble for the most part. This time around, he's risking himself more directly.