Is the Heresy how you pictured it? (40K)

[Bedlam]

There are now a fair number of Horus Heresy (HH) books out and we've been given a picture (if not necessarily a consistent picture) of the 31st Millennia. To a certain extent it seems like the series is running out of steam (only 2 books due to year as far as I can see, one is out already and the other is a short stories anthology). However, how does the universe as its portrayed differ from how you though it would be? Not just any changes to the fluff over time (although we can discuss that as well) but stuff that was never mentioned and you assumed the universe would be in a certain way.

For me the biggest thing was how secular the 31st millennia has been portrayed. I'd always assumed that the God Emperor had been worshiped from the first time he appeared and that he literally just popped up and said 'Hi, I'm God' instead we find out that the great crusade is all about wiping out religions and it’s almost a crime to consider the Emperor Holy. I did not see that coming. I suppose it makes sense when you think about it as it seems that worship makes the chaos powers stronger and stylistically it shows how much the imperium of the 41st century has fallen away from its original tenants. The growth of the imperial religion is also interesting in the background of many books if a bit uneven, in some it seems to be practically unknown in others there are large hidden religious groups in the background.

It’s all about the marines. It seems that the whole crusade is run just by the Space Marines; the normal human troops are just there to support the marine armies. In my mind I saw the marines being an important part of the crusade but not almost the totality as many of the books seem to indicate. I suppose it’s been done because Marines are the most popular army and the Primarchs are the major players in the HH but it just seems a bit excessive.

A third point is how drawn out the HH seems to be. To me it always seems that Horus went straight from the Istvan drop site massacre to besieging earth with very little in between but so far it’s been what, 2 years as of Nemesis and Horus is still making his way to earth, it looks like it might be another year or 2 before he gets there. I suppose it makes sense that you can’t run a campaign to overthrow a galaxy wide empire in a few weeks but it just seems, well a drag. On a similar note it doesn't seem like the loyalists are doing anything to stop Horus, the fists are fortifying earth and everyone else seems to have just disappeared, the whole loyalist strategy seem to be to defend Earth which seems to be asking to loose. I know there is more backstory to say that the various loyalist forces are ordered into traps by Horus but again given the time it’s now taking him to get to earth they seem to all be staying out of position for far too long. Similar to my second point it seems to be only the Space Marine forces that are of any importance what about the other billions of troops the empire has?

Do you have any commentary on my thoughts or any other points you want to raise?

[2000AD]

Overall I'm quite liking the series. The only bit that was unexpected was the whole Emperor not wanting to be worshipped bit. Apart from that I can't really say it's not been as I pictured it as most of it was not really well documented before so I didn't have much of a picture. We knew Horus lead half the legions in rebellion, that it started at Istvaan and ended on Earth and that some loyalists escaped on the Eisenstien but apart from that I can't remember any publications going into a lot of detail, and even when they did go into detail it was mostly focused on the siege of Terra.
Actually there is one other unexpected thing and that's the Assassin temples being well established. I allways assumed they were set up by the High Lords after the Horus Heresy.

Also (spoiler for Legion): Spoiler

Alpharius having a twin and also kinda being a loyalist

But that's just unexpected like a plot twist, not unexpected in terms of 'not how I imagined it'.

[xt828]

The secularism thing struck me as weird straight off, as from the get-go the fluff has been that the Adeptus Mechanicus were brought on-side by making the Machine God and aspect of the Emperor's divinity. It does kinda work in the sense of providing a feeling of a descent from enlightenment for the 41st millennium stuff, though.

The marine focus annoys me, in that I had a similar mental picture of the crusades to you. It's never made sense to me that such expensive and difficult to replace troops would be the main force. IIRC there is some development of the idea that the Marines were meant to be disposed of after the Great Crusade, but I can't place it atm.

The length of time it takes Horus to get to Earth/Terra really bugs me. My perception of the Heresy previously was that the main series of events began with the genocide of Istvaan, followed by the first marine on marine combat at the drop-site, with Horus using the shock and temporary superiority in Marines granted as his window of opportunity to assault Earth and attempt a coup. This is resisted, and the stalemate on Earth serves as the backdrop for warfare to break out across the galaxy. The only possible indicator of how long the siege took I can think of off the top of my head comes from the antics of Fabius Bile - IIRC the Emperor's Children got distracted during the siege, and Bile found the time to rewire their brains so that they gained pleasure from everything.

[Niz1]

Other than to echo the secularism/Emperor god denial thing that is going on I cant really think of anything that has completely struck me as strange or unexpected as of yet within the series.

However Im not sure where people are getting that it should go Istvaan---->Earth with nothing in between or really quickly. Its always been the case in the fluff that Istvaan was the starting point and Earth the End Battle of All Times War to End all Wars(TM) kind of thing. But to think that there wasnt a campaign between the two is kindof nieve at best, silly at worst.

I can see where people are getting the impression that the marines are doing most of the fighting, but then the focus of the series is on the Primarchs and Legions since they are both the protagonists and antagonists within the heresy. However Legion shows infantry fighting with the marines and im sure there are snippets in the other books to imply its not just the marines doing it all. Plus we already have a book showing the mechanicum side, and the assasins, so there is plenty of time for a book solely on the guard experience to come.

[Manus Celer Dei]

I think it only seems like the crusade is being fought entirely by the marines because virtually all of the books are about marines and from the viewpoint of them. There's quite a few mentions here and there of expeditionary forces that don't have an Astartes presence, and every expeditionary force we've seen in the books has had regular soldier folk alongside them. We just see them that often because the books focus on the story of the Astartes. And honestly I think that's a good thing; I'm reading the HH series because I want hot Astartes-on-Astartes action, not the adventures of some no-name riflebloke. Then again, I've never really gotten into any book about the IG that doesn't have Cain in it.

I'm fairly sure the length of the Horus Heresy has been established as a few years in the fluff for quite a while now, both before the HH series started and in stuff like the Visions of Heresy artbooks. Horus just storming straight towards Terra is a cool image, but Istvaan was chosen because it was a far-away system and while his forces were fighting back towards the heart of the Imperium they no doubt needed to deal with things like forging an adequate supply chain and the like for his forces. I actually like that the Heresy took a few years, as it helps sell the idea that it was this huge war that split the Imperium in half culminating in his attack on the Emperor's palace. If he'd just popped straight there and got mired in a siege immediately it'd feel more like some sort of failed coup or something.

Personally, the biggest problem I've had with the series is the weird Council of Nikea stuff. I mean, not only is not coherent inside the series - A Thousand Sons and Battle for the Abyss both depict the Emperor's ruling as having taken place a good while before the Heresy, while in Fallen Angels there's still Librarians tooling around carefree - it seems weird that the "modern-day" marines would fuck it off and go back to using Librarians. I guess that might be addressed in a future book, though.

Another thing that bugged the hell out of me, though this is less to do with the depiction of the Heresy and more with the structure of the series - is how the earlier books ended up showing us the same events at Istvaan over and over. I mean, the most obnoxious example is the attack on the Istvaanian listening post, which is a minor skirmish that's in no less than three books!

[Kojiro]

I'm sadly torn on the series. There's a lot that is different from the way it was originally, but I can forgive that.

I'll agree, the secular aspect was a big shock, I too assumed the God-Emperor has always been such. Looking back over the old fluff though there isn't actually a reference to the Emperor as God-Emperor in the original Epic. It must have snuck in somewhere but I can't recall where. That said it's also one of the most annoying ideas in it's implementation. I get that the general schmuck has to not believe in god, lest he attract Chaos but why oh why are the primarchs ignorant? The Emperor would have to know they'd find out (especially Magnus) and lying to them is exceeded in it's stupidity only by not preparing them. It also makes you wonder how the Word Bearer's got their name if worship is so completely blocked.

The Legion spoiler also pissed me off no end. It's just silly that such a being would exist and Alpharius' actions were crazy. He's no loyalist.

I'll also agree it seems drawn out, though this could just be because so much of what I've read is concurrent with previous books. I'm hoping that picks up soon (I'm currently reading Mechanicus). I will note that I wasn't expecting to see Terra prepared for a fight. I was always under tha assumption that Horus turned and immediately led the attack against Terra, catching them off guard more or less. It seems logical- a quick strike and take power. Letting them fortify just seems like a bad idea though- if nothing more you're guaranteeing that more loyalists will arrive in time. Horus could not possibly hope to have the same resources as the Emperor in overall military might. If I recall the fluff of old it was precisely this that led him to allow the Emperor to assault his ship, it was either end it or the reinforcements will end it for you.

One thing I do notice is that the marines tend to use servitor pilots for things back in a time when marines were a dime a dozen (or so it seems). Where as now they use marine pilots, which seems a colossal waste given the now rarity of marines. It's also highlighted for me the absurdity of modern drop pods- the value of a fully laden drop pod would be immense in a current setting and losing 10 marines in a drop would be crushingly painful. It also makes me wonder how technology gets so messed up between then and now.

Horus' turning was also different and in my opinion handled badly. Where previously he'd been possessed (and thus his betrayal entirely believable) now he's simply a whiney jerk. It's also resulted in the fluff change of Chaos Marines showing up much earlier (as distinct from mere traitor marines). It means Fulgrim's turn is also done poorly, Alpharius is an idiot and I still don't know what happened with Mortarion.

Much of my idea of the Horus Heresy comes from the old Space Marine rule book imagery.

[Lonestar]

Personally, the biggest problem I've had with the series is the weird Council of Nikea stuff. I mean, not only is not coherent inside the series - A Thousand Sons and Battle for the Abyss both depict the Emperor's ruling as having taken place a good while before the Heresy, while in Fallen Angels there's still Librarians tooling around carefree - it seems weird that the "modern-day" marines would fuck it off and go back to using Librarians. I guess that might be addressed in a future book, though.

It actually seems to me that the Nikea ruling is less clear than that, after all the Space Wolves just kept on using Runepriests like nothing had changed after the ruling, and if that was really in defiance of the Emperor then presumably Russ wouldn't have been dispatched to bring in Magnus.

[andrewgpaul]

Much of my idea of the Horus Heresy comes from the old Space Marine rule book imagery.

Fuck yeah.

To answer the OP, no it isn't mostly because in the original material that Kojiro shows, the Imperial institutions - the Inquisition, the Adeptus Terra, etc - already existed, so to have the current view of the Heresy omit them seems a bit off. Note that I'm not necessarily saying the current depiction is bad - just that it's not how I always saw it.

It does, however, have a similar modernist feel - the original Epic material didn't use the same pseudo-Latin technobabble - Computer rather than Cogitator, Space Marines rather than Adeptus Astartes, and English names for the Titan Legions - so even though the same Imperial institutions existed it still seemed more traditionally Sci-Fi.

I think part of the reason some people (myself included, to be honest) always saw the Heresy as being Istvaan 3 - Istvaan 5 - Earth is because no other conflicts really got any "screen time". Of course, as soon as I type this, the counter-example of Tallarn (as described in Codex Titanicus) springs to mind, and the description of Horus' advance through the Solar System - whioch was slow enough that the Loyalists had time to begin full production of mark 6 armour (including distributing it across the galaxy), move the production lines from Mars to Earth and being production of mark 7.

[Elheru Aran]

The Space Wolves have this elitist shit going on about how, oh, hey, Rune Priests aren't *actually* psykers, they're just using the magic effect of the magic runes, now shut up and go away...

Overall, the Heresy has been a decent series. The biggest glaring sore-thumb of the series so far for me? Battle for the Abyss. I kept thinking that'd be about the Ultramarines versus Word Bearers at Calth. No... just Word Bearers build an OMGAWESOMEUBER battleship, in total secrecy apparently, and send it off to kill Macragge. Somewhere on the way, the A-Team, excuse me, a Smurf captain finds out, and gets a bunch of diverse Marines to help his ass out to stop it... which they do, after various engagements... but guess what? It doesn't really fucking matter to the ENTIRE series. 300+ pages of story that ultimately adds NOTHING to the Heresy. There was this ship, and explosions.

At least it's been partly redeemed by offhand mentions in later books, but honestly. And there were like, what, three or five entire Chapters of Word Bearers on that ship? When it was basically just supposed to Death-Star Macragge? Ugh.

Even 'Nemesis' was more purposeful as an side story. Sure, like Battle for the Abyss, it didn't add much to the Heresy, but at least it gave us a detailed, rather excellent, look at an aspect of the Imperium that we hadn't really seen much of before. I have to say I definitely enjoyed it a lot more than Abyss. The short story collection was a bit of a letdown, though.

But on the upside: I have Prospero Burns and The First Heretic! I'll be reading them both and giving opinions shortly...

[Kojiro]

I'll add another thing that is different (probably because of the art) which is the armour. Most of the series is plodding around in MK4 (as far as I've read) but the book has lots of art (even a detailed armour cut away) all depicted in MK6. As a pet peeve it also bugs me the change they made to virus weaponry and the insanity of not keeping that shit on it's own servitor run ship.

Two of the primarchs (Dorn and Russ) are also pictured and honestly look down right plain compared to current descriptions. In fact that seems to conflict with an enlightened scientific age- you'd think the primarchs would wear pretty looking armour but above all it would be functional. Modern HH depictions have them with all manner of absurd attachments and styling that would increase their profile, mark them out and get snagged on things.

Another thing that occured to me was how the Emperor must have made his pitch to the primarchs. The primarchs are all pretty intelligent blokes, I can't help but think that some of them have an issue with the outright genocidal stance on xenos (or understand the Emperor's position). "Hi son, I'm your father, want to retake the galaxy for me and psychotically destroy every deviation from my strict code?" I can't believe someone like Guilliman for example didn't raise an eyebrow when he was told how to handle such things.

[andrewgpaul]

Regarding the ornateness or otherwise of the armour, this is how Horus and Rogal Dorn appeared in the 1st edition Space Marine rulebook:

Warmaster Horus:


Rogal Dorn:


I think I prefer that to the ornate beskulled look that they have now.

[Simon_Jester]

Another thing that occured to me was how the Emperor must have made his pitch to the primarchs. The primarchs are all pretty intelligent blokes, I can't help but think that some of them have an issue with the outright genocidal stance on xenos (or understand the Emperor's position). "Hi son, I'm your father, want to retake the galaxy for me and psychotically destroy every deviation from my strict code?" I can't believe someone like Guilliman for example didn't raise an eyebrow when he was told how to handle such things.

Well, one thing to bear in mind is that the Emperor has really impressive command presence: displays of literally godlike ability in almost every field of human endeavor, overwhelming psychic might such that his aura can practically make your head explode by accident, and so on.

So just as the Space Marine legions 'instinctively' obey their Primarchs, the Primarchs probably have at least a limited automatic tendency to defer to the Emperor.

[Kojiro]

Ah yes, I forgot that pic of Horus at the start. I expect some embelishments on the armour- personal heraldry and such. I also never got the impression that the primarchs were massively superior to marines. There's a line in Russ' description that says he was as an adult, spared by spear and arrow wielding hunters, bound and gagged and dragged before the king. I can't imagine that happening to one of the 'new' primarchs.

@Simon_Jester: I can totally buy that he engineered/psychic mind screwed them to his cause. Again, I never really got the impression the Emperor was as powerful as he's now depicted back then but I put that down to the nature of the beast. That said the HH is evidence that the primarchs are not all that bound to the Emperor's will.

[Connor MacLeod]

the Secularism in the HH novels was meant to be something of an irony or a joke I think. Basically they tried to portray the Crusade era Imperium as being opposite the "modern" 40K - "logic and science" rather than religion and superstition guiding stuff. It doesn't quite work out that way though, as the "Imperial Truth" comes across as being just as dogmatic as the "Imperial Cult/Creed" of the more modern era. Basically no real difference, except hat instead of religious fanatics you have ideological fanatics. All in all though, it does seem thematically similar to what they intended with the HH.

[Simon_Jester]

@Simon_Jester: I can totally buy that he engineered/psychic mind screwed them to his cause. Again, I never really got the impression the Emperor was as powerful as he's now depicted back then but I put that down to the nature of the beast. That said the HH is evidence that the primarchs are not all that bound to the Emperor's will.

Well, if the Primarchs were less powerful back in the day and the Emperor was less powerful back in the day, it'd tend to cancel out.

The Heresy shows that the Primarchs aren't subject to super-mind control, true. But it's easy to posit that the great power of the Emperor's personal command presence (exactly how great that is irrelevant) helped him convince the Primarchs to go along with his plans.

Remember, it's not just mind control I'm talking about; it's charisma, the ability to impress people by besting them in physical feats, and so on.

[Kojiro]

I don't really disagree with any of your points Simon_Jester, just noting my own cognitive dissonance at the modern depictions. In my 40K there are squats and ogryns and beastmen working for the Imperium- the level of sheer bloody mindedness to exterminate xenos strikes a chord, particularly contrasted against (though as Connor pointed out) the pro logic and reason setting (which as Connor points out, still has it's own dogma).

On a competely unrelated but amusing note, re-reading Rogue Trader the example character they give for an inquisitor is named Obiwan Sherlock Closeau.

[Cykeisme]

Perhaps the "kill all xenos" mandate is, in fact, the conclusion reached after long discourse and logical deliberation on the subject?
Is that possible?

[TC27]

The Imperial truth is dogmatic but you can understand it as being necessary from the Emperors point of view (better than the religion it was replaced with).


I have read the main three books that cover the Lunar Wolves and Horus turning to chaos.

TBH I thought the authors were always going to have a hard time making the characters believable and it turned out to be true...the Primarchs come across as severly emotionally disfunctional with suspect reasoning.


The big moment where Horus throws his lot in with Chaos is quite poorly explained and you dont really understand why he makes his choice even after Magnus explicity tells him he's being tricked and manipulated by the Word Bearers.

[Stravo]

While I have generally enjoyed the Heresy series I am coming at it as a relative noob so I had few preconceptions before picking up the series as my exposure to modern fluff was very limited.

I have my own issues with the series in particular with the depiction of the primarchs and their legion's descent into chaos. I was expecting and wanted to see something a little more tragic and awful. You know the whole road to hell is paved with good intentions bit where these guys think they're doing the right thing and keep on making small concessions to Chaos until they realize they are way over their heads and some of them even find themselves liking it.

Instead we get very little articulation as to just why Horus turned and how he got the others to turn. I'm expected to believe he met with these guys one on one and convinced them to make war on a man they viewed as their father? In Fulgrim, a book I particularly enjoyed, I was sorely disappointed by how easily a guy who devoted himself to perfection fell for some pretty simplistic arguments and then dragged his legion down to madness in a short time.

I mean seriously, if you have people painting with shit (literally) and demons appearing in a concert and butchering civilians around you in the span of a month and you fully embrace it then either you were already long fucking gone or you were mind controlled into your fall and that is the feeling I get from the depiction of these falls from grace. In Fulgrim they go from one of the most discplined and organized legions to raving loons after visiting a single temple. Does that not smack of "Fulgrim and the Emperor's Children failed their Invulnerable Save and are now Charmed per the Chaos special rule."

On the other hand something like the depiction in "Thousand Sons" was totally up my alley. In trying to save themselves they damned themselves and Magnus' own overblown ego made him ripe for a fall. Yet at no time do you get a sense that they just turned evil. They were almost brutally forced down that path until finally they just go "fuck it." or as Ahriman so deliciously noted when his power staff turned black after killing the Space Wolf Runepriest "so be it." That was an awesome depiction of a legion that falls from grace and we need to see more of that.


I am very impressed with the depiction of the Emperor. He's not the hero of the story as depicted in many Horus Heresy retellings in the fluff. He is a far more ambiguous figure, oftentimes more than a douche to his children and there is always this sense that he views everyone as tools or a means to an end and perhaps that's what pricked at Horus, that deep suspicion that once the Crusade was over he and his brothers would no longer be needed and instead would be put away to be used in case of emergencies in the future. Because he was closest to the Emperor maybe he saw that tendency and that is partly what drove him to turn, Unfortunately none of that is in the book where he made his decision.

The marine centric story is natural considering that the primarchs are the stars but I have to say I was really curious by what we saw of other forces for example in Legion we have a very good look at the nascent Imperial Guard and it was quite interesting to see the depiction of elite forces from Earth like the Lucifer Blacks and other non-Marine units. I hope we get to see more of that.

I just received Prosepero Burns so I'm hoping to start that shortly.

[Manus Celer Dei]

In Fulgrim they go from one of the most discplined and organized legions to raving loons after visiting a single temple.

Oh, hardly. They were influenced of a period of months by the daemon prince inside Fulgrim sword which had previously held an entire planet of sentients in it's thrall. And even then Fulgrim was, on some level, aware of how much it had fucked him up; the scenes where he kills the sculptor the whole showdown with Ferrus show he knows he totally fucked up somewhere along the line but his mind is so screwed he can't figure out how to save himself.

Honestly I thought the fall of Fulgrim and the Emperor's Children is one of the best presented so far. Fulgrim is probably one of my favourite Black Library novels.

Horus' fall just sort of felt like there was supposed to be another book in between the second and third, he turns so abruptly.

[Niz1]

They were influenced of a period of months by the daemon prince inside Fulgrim sword which had previously held an entire planet of sentients in it's thrall.

QFT. This is missed by so many people who whine that Fulgrims fall was badly depicted its sad.

So far Ive been really impressed with the series as a whole, with the exeption of Battle for the Abyss since its such a throwaway novel of no import to the whole series. As soon as I read that the target was McCragge I was like "oh well thats all dramatic tension gone then" since we all know that McCragge is doing fine in the 41st millenium with the exception of some tyranid trouble

I will admit that Horus' fall wasnt as well depicted as id hoped , but then I put that down to later writers not following through on Abnetts initially excellent characterisation. Legion was a bit meh overall with the fall not being particularly believable. But Fulgrim was excellent, Lorgars was well done imo with a bit of the slippery slope/good intentions that Stravo was wanting and Magnus was the crowning glory of hubris causing calamity.

[Sinewmire]

I'll agree, the secular aspect was a big shock, I too assumed the God-Emperor has always been such. Looking back over the old fluff though there isn't actually a reference to the Emperor as God-Emperor in the original Epic. It must have snuck in somewhere but I can't recall where. That said it's also one of the most annoying ideas in it's implementation. I get that the general schmuck has to not believe in god, lest he attract Chaos but why oh why are the primarchs ignorant? The Emperor would have to know they'd find out (especially Magnus) and lying to them is exceeded in it's stupidity only by not preparing them. It also makes you wonder how the Word Bearer's got their name if worship is so completely blocked.

I like the Secular Aspect. It's completely logical. If you were the Emperor and you decided to destroy the Chaos Gods, how would you do it?

Remove them an item of worship. Tell everyone they're just some other Xenos. Check.

Rigorously inspect and control human and astartes psykers. Check.

Find a new way to travel that doesn't require the warp so much. Check.

Everything was going fine until Horus was presented with the choice Serve Chaos or Die.

Another thing that occured to me was how the Emperor must have made his pitch to the primarchs. The primarchs are all pretty intelligent blokes, I can't help but think that some of them have an issue with the outright genocidal stance on xenos (or understand the Emperor's position). "Hi son, I'm your father, want to retake the galaxy for me and psychotically destroy every deviation from my strict code?" I can't believe someone like Guilliman for example didn't raise an eyebrow when he was told how to handle such things.

Wow, if only there were detailed legends about how the Emperor convinced the Primarchs to join him. Oh wait. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Index_A ... startes_IV

None of them would have had much of a problem with the anti-xenos stance. Pretty much every major alien race in the 40k universe are some kind of sonovabitch or another, and I seem to recall reading something about how when the Age of Strife came, all the alien allies mankind had turned on them. So much for live and let live.

[Kojiro]

QFT. This is missed by so many people who whine that Fulgrims fall was badly depicted its sad.

Add me to the list of people who missed it. And also note that if a central aspect is 'missed by so many people who whine that Fulgrims fall was badly depicted its sad' then I respectfully submit the author failed on some level.

Also in Fulgrim it eluded me as to why they even assualted that temple. It was the last refuge, it was small and insignificant and the battle had already proven extremely costly. You've already captured dozens of the other atolls so the excuse of 'we need to study the tech' is gone- just bomb it into the ocean. But then the Emperor is stupid enough to tell them there's no such thing as monsters and send them off into the woods, ensuring that they can't recognise Chaos when they see it.

I far prefer the old method of falling- where Horus is possessed because of his arrogance and ignorance and then leads those he commands against the Emperor, who follow thier commander. Only after they've failed do they realise what they've done and who they serve, and must choose between oblivion at the hands of the Imperium or embracing Chaos.

Remove them an item of worship. Tell everyone they're just some other Xenos. Check.

Do you really think sending your troops off to war with information you know to be false is a good idea? I mean ever? I'm not saying tell the rank and file of the army but for fuck sake protect the primarchs.

The 'detailed legends' of the Emperor meeting the primarchs are sketchy if even present and the most detailed one involves drinking, eating and getting hit in the head (at least from the first 4 or 5). Not every xenos race in the galaxy is an asshat- the Technocracy (I think they were called) were proof of that and I'm sure there were others who were wiped out. I'm not saying the primarchs/marines wouldn't obey but surely they had to wonder what they were risking their lives for (and watching their friends lose thiers). Incidentally that's another thing that irks me- whenever someone does ask why to a higher up it's immediately met with 'know your place' or 'are you questioning me?' type of bullshit responses, as if invoking authority quashed curiosity or suspicion. The thing is that someone who sets up a system of government like Guilliman or knightly orders like Johnson doesn't just accept 'kill'em all because they're different.' Angron sure, but he's a mentally altered psychopath.

[OsirisLord]

The 40K galaxy is pretty big (wonder why?) and even with warp travel, getting from place to place is slow and unpredictable. I'm not surprised the series is being dragged on like this. After all this was a galaxy wide civil war that almost destroyed the Imperium.

I'm going to have to go with how secular everything is. Which makes the Word Bearers even weirder now that you think about it. Still I like it, sort of as a foil to show how far the Imperium has fallen. Once it was this big secular empire were science was supreme and everything required a logical explanation. Flash forward 10,000 years and now it's a tyrannically theocracy that distorts and subverts everything the Emperor stood for while claiming fanatic devotion to Him at the same time. Sometimes I wonder if GW is actually making a point with all this.

[Soontir C'boath]

Is the secularism truly surprising? It's been a couple months since I read Angel of Darkness (pub. 2003), but IIRC the 'traitor' Marine kept saying that the Emperor was not someone to be worshiped nor never wanted to be held as a god. If the old fluff stated he was GodEmperor, BL seemed to have moved away from that before Horus Rising (pub. 2006) was published.