David Weber's Starfire series

[Samuel]

Has anyone else read the Starfire series (now five books)? I liked the space combat, but Insurrection grated on me- the politics seemed off and I couldn't find myself rooting for the traitors.

Also, has anyone read the newest one, Exodus? I took a look at the description and it didn't look so good.

[The Romulan Republic]

Was he the same one who wrote the "Honor Harrington" series?

I haven't read the series in question but if he is the same author, I find his writing to be melodramatic, his plots confusing, and his politics and books in general to be disgusting. No offense meant to any fans here, but its just how I feel.

[Raxmei]

I've read The Shiva Option. The characters were uninspiring, the politics caricatured, and somehow action scenes with hundreds of exploding spaceships became boring. He's trying very hard to be epic and failing to even be interesting. His characters generally are Mary Sues or exist solely to support or oppose the Mary Sues. I know he's capable of writing a decent space combat, but the battles in The Shiva Option were dull paint by numbers affairs of ships moving around, exploding, and heroic senior officers feeling a little bad about the thousands of casualties suffered by the men under their command. It's a bit like winning Master of Orion, in a way. Massive fleets are moving around kicking ass in an epic interstellar bloodbath, but you're really just counting the turns till it's over. Except here you get cutscenes of admirals talking to each other in between turns.

On the plus side, this volume doesn't seem to suffer from the author's usual infodump problem.

[Samuel]

None taken! I have no taste what so ever- that is part of the reason I came to SD.net and Giant in the Playgrounds- to learn to distinguish crap.

Yes, he is responsible for the Honor Harrington series and one of the Universe's biggest Mary Sues. He does that often I take it (haven't read the HH series)?

His politics are heavily slanted to the right- stupidly so.

and heroic senior officers feeling a little bad about the thousands of casualties suffered by the men under their command. It's a bit like winning Master of Orion, in a way. Massive fleets are moving around kicking ass in an epic interstellar bloodbath, but you're really just counting the turns till it's over.

But half the fun is watching the enemies being crushed before your relentless fleets! Watching other people... oh yeah, like watching paint dry.

Of course, I was more curious to how logically coherant fleet tactics are in the Starfire series it has fighters, but tries to justify them. Anyone know if it is still handwaving?

[The Romulan Republic]

Yes, he is responsible for the Honor Harrington series and one of the Universe's biggest Mary Sues. He does that often I take it (haven't read the HH series)?

Yes Harrington is a rouge asshole of an officer who should be court martialled yet her actions are always justifiable and any character who opposes her is always an irredemable monster. I kind of liked some of books 1 and 3, but book four's ode to vigilantism really pissed me off, and it largely went down hill from there.

His politics are heavily slanted to the right- stupidly so.

My memory's a bit vauge, but I think his writing's somewhat liberal on the "social values" issues. Definitely right on the militarism and pro-vigilanty crap though.

[Aeolus]

Has anyone else read the Starfire series (now five books)? I liked the space combat, but Insurrection grated on me- the politics seemed off and I couldn't find myself rooting for the traitors.

Also, has anyone read the newest one, Exodus? I took a look at the description and it didn't look so good.

I have read them all and played the game alot back in the 80's and early 90's. I always liked the universe.
As to the insurrection, the central government had it coming. They abuse the outer worlds for centuries. Then when finally the outer worlds have enough votes to solve their disagreements legally and peacefully the corp worlds toss in a wrench and basically wipe out the outer worlds chances for several more centuries. They had every right to withdraw at that point. Treason be damned governments are a means to an end not an end unto themselves. once they no longer serve the interests of the people they govern they no longer have any validity.
I wish they would write books about the first 3 intersteller wars. I would also like to get more points of view from the Ophuchi and Gorm.

[Aeolus]

None taken! I have no taste what so ever- that is part of the reason I came to SD.net and Giant in the Playgrounds- to learn to distinguish crap.

Yes, he is responsible for the Honor Harrington series and one of the Universe's biggest Mary Sues. He does that often I take it (haven't read the HH series)?

His politics are heavily slanted to the right- stupidly so.

and heroic senior officers feeling a little bad about the thousands of casualties suffered by the men under their command. It's a bit like winning Master of Orion, in a way. Massive fleets are moving around kicking ass in an epic interstellar bloodbath, but you're really just counting the turns till it's over.

But half the fun is watching the enemies being crushed before your relentless fleets! Watching other people... oh yeah, like watching paint dry.

Of course, I was more curious to how logically coherant fleet tactics are in the Starfire series it has fighters, but tries to justify them. Anyone know if it is still handwaving?

In universe not one used fighters till the 3rd war. the Rigellians developed them to keep their big expensive ships away from the battle line. Their reactionless drives make more like plances than ships. However most of their fighting involves warppoint seiges so they still need lots of big battlewagons. They have mentioned that the ophuchi and khantate use fighters more for their emotional appeal than practicality. The Rigellians invented them, no one else before had thought the idea practical. Humans adopted them during the third war but still rely much more on big dreadnaughts.

[Dahak]

Well, the books are mostly just the Starfire Games in writing
I consider them popcorn-reading. Fun for a quick read, but nothing that invites deep thought

As for the fighters, IIRC the Drive had the problem that at the stern of the ship a disturbance allowed for shots through the Drive Field and made for easier killings, hence fighters could inflict heavy damage...

[dragon]

His Mary Sue is no worse than the ones you find in any book or show. After look at all the stuff that chacter shields protect their people from. Hell look at all the crap Carter, Leia put up with. Then don't forget about the male Mary Sues what ever their refered to. People like Han, Luke, O'neil and don't forget Daniel (mister I died, ascended and came back).

At least with Honor she got managled quite a bit. Lost an arm, her eye, her loved ones, was captured and totured. So at least his Mary Sue suffers the consequnces of the actions unlike many such stories.

[Vehrec]

But isn't a characteristic of Mary Sue that she'll die tragically and be mourned by all the characters? Getting beat up does not a Mary Sue redeem. They are the characters who pull us out of the story. A come from behind, skin of the teeth win that winds up killing hundreds of Captain Sue's crew for instance is not a failure, although forgetting to put any tension into the scene may be one on the author's part.

[dragon]

But isn't a characteristic of Mary Sue that she'll die tragically and be mourned by all the characters? Getting beat up does not a Mary Sue redeem. They are the characters who pull us out of the story. A come from behind, skin of the teeth win that winds up killing hundreds of Captain Sue's crew for instance is not a failure, although forgetting to put any tension into the scene may be one on the author's part.

Dieing is not a requirement. However by the characteristic below Honor meets some but not other. She is overly idealizez but she has very noticable flaws. And since the Honor Harrington has a large fan base she not to ostentatious for the audience. Oh well many of the Weber books end up on the best sellers list as well as have rave reviews from the supposed experts (that get paid a lot read a book and write a flattering review). Now that sounds like a good job paid to read.

Code: Select all

Mary Sue, sometimes shortened simply to Sue, is a pejorative term used to describe a fictional character who plays a major role in the plot and is particularly characterized by overly idealized and hackneyed mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as wish-fulfillment fantasies for their authors. Perhaps the single underlying feature of all characters described as "Mary Sues" is that they are too ostentatious for the audience's taste, or that the author seems to favor the character too highly. The author may seem to push how exceptional and wonderful the "Mary Sue" character is on his or her audience, sometimes leading the audience to dislike or even resent the character fairly quickly; such a character could be described as an "author's pet".

"Mary Sues" can be either male or female, but male characters are often dubbed "Marty Stu", "Gary Stu", or similar names.[1] While the label "Mary Sue" itself originates from a parody of this type of character, most characters labeled "Mary Sues" by readers are not intended by authors as such.

[Molyneux]

Yes, he is responsible for the Honor Harrington series and one of the Universe's biggest Mary Sues. He does that often I take it (haven't read the HH series)?

Yes Harrington is a rouge asshole of an officer who should be court martialled yet her actions are always justifiable and any character who opposes her is always an irredemable monster. I kind of liked some of books 1 and 3, but book four's ode to vigilantism really pissed me off, and it largely went down hill from there.

Uh...what the hell? I just finished reading the second book in the series, and all the Havenite officers seemed to be decent men forced, through quirk of birth, to serve a corrupt government. The only real bastards in that book were the Masadans.

[dragon]

Damn lack of edit hit submit instead of preview. Can a mode fix my tags and the link for the above info. I know its wikia but its a place to start.

Sue

[dragon]

Yes, he is responsible for the Honor Harrington series and one of the Universe's biggest Mary Sues. He does that often I take it (haven't read the HH series)?

Yes Harrington is a rouge asshole of an officer who should be court martialled yet her actions are always justifiable and any character who opposes her is always an irredemable monster. I kind of liked some of books 1 and 3, but book four's ode to vigilantism really pissed me off, and it largely went down hill from there.

Uh...what the hell? I just finished reading the second book in the series, and all the Havenite officers seemed to be decent men forced, through quirk of birth, to serve a corrupt government. The only real bastards in that book were the Masadans.

There is actually a reason for that. Later in the series many of the Havenites become members of the Grayson military. Weber made most of the Haven people decent so he could give the Grayson a leg up with their military.

[eyl]

There is actually a reason for that. Later in the series many of the Havenites become members of the Grayson military. Weber made most of the Haven people decent so he could give the Grayson a leg up with their military.

AFAIR the only significant Havenite to join the Grayson military while it's still building up was Alfredo Yu. All the rest (and it's not that many, really) join after the GSN has gotten "a leg up". And that still leaves most of the Havenites decent people - it's not like all the good guys defect to the Alliance by a long shot.

[Count Chocula]

After In Enemy Hands, IIRC, Honor escaped the Peoples' Republic's prison planet with around a half million Havenite ex-prisoners, most of whom joined the Grayson armed forces. The person mentioned above wasn't the only ex-Peep to join the Manticorans/Graysons, but the first of many.

As far as the Mary-Sueing H. Harrington goes, well heck Weber's made her a hugely entertaining character. While the characters, situations and plots are vastly different, you could compare Honor's experiences as similar to Frodo Baggins in the LOTR trilogy. Both characters lose people close to them, both have to fight to their goals, both take their licks, but win in the end.

Besides, IMO Han Solo has a stronger character shield. He shot down Darth Vader in ANH, yet Vader didn't kill him in ESB. He flew through an asteroid field that wiped out TIEs left and right and crippled at least 1 Star Destroyer, while mostly blind he knocked Boba Fett into a Sarlacc's mouth. Oh yeah, and he led a band of Rebels that defeated one of the Empire's best Stormtrooper regiments. Heck, he didn't lose anyone close to him until the EU books came out.

[dragon]

After In Enemy Hands, IIRC, Honor escaped the Peoples' Republic's prison planet with around a half million Havenite ex-prisoners, most of whom joined the Grayson armed forces. The person mentioned above wasn't the only ex-Peep to join the Manticorans/Graysons, but the first of many.

As far as the Mary-Sueing H. Harrington goes, well heck Weber's made her a hugely entertaining character. While the characters, situations and plots are vastly different, you could compare Honor's experiences as similar to Frodo Baggins in the LOTR trilogy. Both characters lose people close to them, both have to fight to their goals, both take their licks, but win in the end.

Besides, IMO Han Solo has a stronger character shield. He shot down Darth Vader in ANH, yet Vader didn't kill him in ESB. He flew through an asteroid field that wiped out TIEs left and right and crippled at least 1 Star Destroyer, while mostly blind he knocked Boba Fett into a Sarlacc's mouth. Oh yeah, and he led a band of Rebels that defeated one of the Empire's best Stormtrooper regiments. Heck, he didn't lose anyone close to him until the EU books came out.

Wonder if Vader knew he had in his possesion the man that shot him down considering he has killed men for less. But after the above person mentioned that only 1 person really went over I went back and read the end. Pretty much only the captain stayed it was the prisoners that I must have been thinking about.

[eyl]

After In Enemy Hands, IIRC, Honor escaped the Peoples' Republic's prison planet with around a half million Havenite ex-prisoners, most of whom joined the Grayson armed forces. The person mentioned above wasn't the only ex-Peep to join the Manticorans/Graysons, but the first of many.

It should be noted that many of those half-million were not Havenites (many of them were prisoners of Haven's conquests); more significantly,, by the time they joined the GSN had already "upgraded".

[Mr Bean]

Let me speak a moment on Harrington series.
David Weber writes very interesting and very uninteresting characters, for the most part. Thomas Theisman for example I think is one of his better characters. He's only an above average admiral, his main quality is his patriotism to Haven. He has no magic best friends. He is an interesting character who started all the way back in the second book in the series.

Honor Harrington is not, she is a Mary Sue, she has a magic talking treecat(Ok it's not magic but it is telepathic), she has over the books gone from wet behind the ears but excellent tactician to Harrington Queen of the Spaceways, speaker with aliens. Duchess of all oh and great politician despite most of these things being her greatest flaws a few books ago. She is a Mary Sue. She, the Alexanders, can go bugger themselves for all I care. As far as I'm concern whatever story and character development takes place despite her instead of because of her. Same goes for the entire extended Harrington Family.

But I have to confess I do want to know how the universe works out.
Spoilers

When last we left things in At All Costs, Lester Tourville had just surrendered what was left of his fleet to Harrington. Javier Giscard is dead. The War looks over in one great battle. But Haven's ability to produce ships is unaffected even if it's lost most of it's A list talent, Manticore meanwhile has just be forced into the equivalent of Battle of Gettysburg. Strategically a tie, Manticore retains control of it's home system yet Superior Haven allow it to go right back on the offensive as soon as the ships can be found while the main striking force of Manticore is tied down defending it's core systems.

And look what we have on the horizon, some definite stirrings out of Manpower the Genetic Slavers and of course you have the Solarium League on the verge of a total civil war
Even if I don't care for the main characters the story behind them is damn interesting and some of the people in it stand out like diamonds in a sea of bland.

[Samuel]

He shot down Darth Vader in ANH, yet Vader didn't kill him in ESB.

No, he just put him in carbonate, leaving him permanently stuck between life and death.

I have read them all and played the game alot back in the 80's and early 90's. I always liked the universe.

That was before computer games. How did they get played out? To me, the oddity is that defense is not supreme- you know where they are coming and there is a choke point. Apparently they can't keep their ships on high alert for extended periods of time.

The thing I liked the most about it was the way they handled different ship classes. It makes sense- the expensive ones take longer to build and are more useful and you screen them with the cheaper more expendable ones.

The part I hated most was their tech. They had a "new and improved" missile in Insurrection that if it went past the target would turn around!

As to the insurrection, the central government had it coming. They abuse the outer worlds for centuries. Then when finally the outer worlds have enough votes to solve their disagreements legally and peacefully the corp worlds toss in a wrench and basically wipe out the outer worlds chances for several more centuries. They had every right to withdraw at that point. Treason be damned governments are a means to an end not an end unto themselves. once they no longer serve the interests of the people they govern they no longer have any validity.

Because that makes no sense what so ever? The Feds join up with the Khanate... who are ideologically identical to the Outer Worlds. That and the oppression is economic... which doesn't make alot of sense.

The fact that the core worlds don't use life extension tech (seriously, WTF?) and the outer worlds are all racial enclaves is also odd.

As for the fighters, IIRC the Drive had the problem that at the stern of the ship a disturbance allowed for shots through the Drive Field and made for easier killings, hence fighters could inflict heavy damage...

Why not use missiles? In the Shiva option they went through fighters like popcorn, so it isn't like they need something that comes back.

Honor Harrington is not, she is a Mary Sue, she has a magic talking treecat(Ok it's not magic but it is telepathic), she has over the books gone from wet behind the ears but excellent tactician to Harrington Queen of the Spaceways, speaker with aliens. Duchess of all oh and great politician despite most of these things being her greatest flaws a few books ago.

There is a poster that sums this up perfectly. I couldn't find it though. I did find this which fits a similar bill.
http://forums.comicbookresources.com/ar ... 95050.html

But I have to confess I do want to know how the universe works out.

The military people unite to face an external threat of black hats and everyone lives happily ever after. At least that is my prediction. Of course, it looks like it is trending that way...

[Nephtys]

His Mary Sue is no worse than the ones you find in any book or show. After look at all the stuff that chacter shields protect their people from. Hell look at all the crap Carter, Leia put up with. Then don't forget about the male Mary Sues what ever their refered to. People like Han, Luke, O'neil and don't forget Daniel (mister I died, ascended and came back).

At least with Honor she got managled quite a bit. Lost an arm, her eye, her loved ones, was captured and totured. So at least his Mary Sue suffers the consequnces of the actions unlike many such stories.

She's also a genetically enhanced super-strong, fast, martial artist who enjoys long range pistol shooting, jet fighter flying, and hang gliding. She defeated a planet's second ranking swordsman after only a year of training in a duel after escaping a plane crash, she has cybernetically augmented vision, a telepathic alien kitten, and a railgun built into her finger. She is a dutchess on two planets, a former countess, and has won the equivalent of four medals of honor within 10 years. Everyone she's worked with either was a worthless person or loves her unadoringly. She has mental powers. She's in some bizzaro trio with a much adored quadropelegic saint and a dashing super-admiral. She has noon tea with the heads of two states frequently.

... did I forget anything? Because I'm not sure I can apply anything that ridiculous to any other character in existance.

[Count Chocula]

Samuel wrote:

The military people unite to face an external threat of black hats and everyone lives happily ever after. At least that is my prediction. Of course, it looks like it is trending that way...

No, no, that's the Starfire series, not the Honorverse series!

As another poster noted, the Starfire series are popcorn books. Much less complex than Weber's other series, with fairly predictable space battles. It was, after all, a book adaptation of an RPG. Has anyone read the novel Doom, based on the game? I haven't but my guess is it's a bit light on plot development and fairly predictable in action.

[Samuel]

Count, you can attribute authors in quotes. Just do quote, than the person's name in ", and you get:

Samuel wrote:

The military people unite to face an external threat of black hats and everyone lives happily ever after. At least that is my prediction. Of course, it looks like it is trending that way...

No, no, that's the Starfire series, not the Honorverse series!

As another poster noted, the Starfire series are popcorn books. Much less complex than Weber's other series, with fairly predictable space battles. It was, after all, a book adaptation of an RPG. Has anyone read the novel Doom, based on the game? I haven't but my guess is it's a bit light on plot development and fairly predictable in action.

I have heard later books in the series set them up against an external slavery enemy. Anyone read the last three?

As for space battles... aren't they going to be predictable? it isn't like morale is going to be a major factor, and with a large number of ships, chance dampens down.

[Aeolus]

I have read them all and played the game alot back in the 80's and early 90's. I always liked the universe.

That was before computer games. How did they get played out? To me, the oddity is that defense is not supreme- you know where they are coming and there is a choke point. Apparently they can't keep their ships on high alert for extended periods of time.

The thing I liked the most about it was the way they handled different ship classes. It makes sense- the expensive ones take longer to build and are more useful and you screen them with the cheaper more expendable ones.

The part I hated most was their tech. They had a "new and improved" missile in Insurrection that if it went past the target would turn around!

As to the insurrection, the central government had it coming. They abuse the outer worlds for centuries. Then when finally the outer worlds have enough votes to solve their disagreements legally and peacefully the corp worlds toss in a wrench and basically wipe out the outer worlds chances for several more centuries. They had every right to withdraw at that point. Treason be damned governments are a means to an end not an end unto themselves. once they no longer serve the interests of the people they govern they no longer have any validity.

Because that makes no sense what so ever? The Feds join up with the Khanate... who are ideologically identical to the Outer Worlds. That and the oppression is economic... which doesn't make alot of sense.

The fact that the core worlds don't use life extension tech (seriously, WTF?) and the outer worlds are all racial enclaves is also odd.

As for the fighters, IIRC the Drive had the problem that at the stern of the ship a disturbance allowed for shots through the Drive Field and made for easier killings, hence fighters could inflict heavy damage...

Why not use missiles? In the Shiva option they went through fighters like popcorn, so it isn't like they need something that comes back.
.

.[/quote]

It was played on a starmap with lots of counters and paperwork.
The Khantate had more in common witht he heart worlds than the corp worlds or frontier worlds. The corp worlds manipulated the heart worlds and thought it could do the same with the khantate. Also the frontier worlds did not like the Khantate. They had fought two really ugly wars with them and faced raids on occasion.
The Heart worlds where Earth, and a half dozen or so worlds originally settled by the UN in the 21 and 22 century. Really built up and heavily populated. Safe from attack for centuries and liberal democracies all.
The Corp worlds were settled during the first two wars. They were built at important resources or strategic choke points. Very wealthy and industrialised. They were oligarchies and by the time of the insurection had dominated the federation for several hundred years. They also were pretty militant.
The frontier worlds were settled by individual nations and political, ethnic groups in an attempt to fill up all the worlds found or taken in the various wars. They were needed as a buffer. They tended to on the frontlines in all the wars. They had a lot of worlds but most had small populations and were always pushed around by the corp worlds. They tried to build up industry and commerce but the corp worlds always went after them. They also made up most of the military.
The games play out in order of the story so you get a full picture. The books are out of order. The frontier had every reason to leave the federation.
As to why not use missiles. The games is late 70's early 80's they have shit for computers and their drives make their ships move like UFO's from the 50's. Plus fighters were not universally approved of.

[Aeolus]

The lanti agathic drugs were legal on the frontier to encourage immigration. They were illegal on the Heart worlds and really expensive on the corp worlds.