What factions could Canon Star Wars beat?

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Gurgeh
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What factions could Canon Star Wars beat?

Post by Gurgeh »

Star Wars used to be one of the most powerful fictional settings. A single Star Wars Legends faction could go toe to toe with a Warhammer 40K faction and at least they could give them a good fight. Now since all the EU content has been retconed many people downplay Star Wars pretty badly. I can only think of a handful of fictional settings that Star Wars can win against:

nBSG
Firefly
Mass Effect
Modern Halo
B5 Younger Races(maybe)

Are there any others they could beat?
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Re: What factions could Canon Star Wars beat?

Post by Tribble »

Well as of Rise of Skywalker they can build fleets of star Destroyer sized planet killers, which is a pretty big leap forward tech wise.

Also strong force users like the Emperor have now been shown on screen as being capable of knocking out an entire fleet of ships single handed too.

I really don’t see much of a depreciation compared to the old EU.

Still a long way from mere time-travelling dalek scavengers being able to build a planet killer bomb small enough to fit in a dude’s chest, but it’s nothing to sneeze at. Lol
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Re: What factions could Canon Star Wars beat?

Post by Solauren »

Star Trek (Federation and similiar tech races, The Borg, and possibly the Voth)

Star Wars superiority to it was demonstrated by the movies, which have not (and can not without a full reboot) be decanonized.

Other Franchises -
The Movies remaining cannon also means anyone that Star Wars could give a good fight to or beat without old EU stuff, they still can.

Really, all the old EU did in terms of firepower was a few super weapons

Specifically

Eclipse and Sovereign Class.
Replaced by the Superlaser Star Destroyers.

World Devastators
Since those were just automated factory starships with tractor beams and energy weapons, you could easily create those still.

The Suncrusher
So, no solar system killer Starfighter. Big deal.
Not a big deal when you can just send in a single Superlaser equipped Star Destroyer to blow up the planets individually.
Really, the Suncrusher was inefficient overkill.


Everything else lost from the EU, the Superlaser Star Destroyers exceed.

Hell, I'd love to see a cross-over where the Vong invade the Disney Star Wars before the Emperor sends his broadcast out in 'Rise of Skywalker'.
Where instead, the Emperor waits for the invasion to go forward, do lots of damage, then reveals his super-fleet to eradicate the invaders to the applause of the galaxy. He then invites his grand-daughter, Rey of Jakkoo, to take her place as the next Empress.
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Re: What factions could Canon Star Wars beat?

Post by Batman »

Wars used to be one of the most powerful fictional settings since when? It may be more powerful than the other 'everybody with a TV knows them' ones but there have been factions that could eat Wars for breakfast since long before Wars existed. Doctor Who anyone?
As for factions it can beat-
Trek is toast without the quasiomnipotents or the 'long dead' civilizations
B5 is toast even with the Vorlons and the Shadows. Their vessels fall to a single-figure number of YR ships and below-GT proximity detonations
nBSG loses hard
BattleTech but then they lose to pretty much everybody
The Expanse
Firefly I'd actually vote 'insufficient data'. The setting certainly looks primitive and they use what are for all practical purposes modern day firearms but we no very little about the rest of their technology. Even rustbuckets like Serenity have artificial gravity, they can go orbital in a matter of moments, and they have the terraforming to turn pretty much any celestial body in a '1 gee surface gravity, breathable atmosphere, halfway tolerable climate' world
Never played Mass Effect or HALO so no opinion there
Honor Harrington loses, hard. Their FTL is slow compared to Trek, they have that pesky hyper limit problem, very limited FTL comms, and their firepower is little greater (if any) than Trek
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Re: What factions could Canon Star Wars beat?

Post by RogueIce »

Yeah, I mean Star Wars always had the Death Stars, built in secret both times so clearly not overly draining to the galactic economy enough for anyone to notice.

And then the ST just ramps that up with Starkiller Base that can absorb the energy from a star - literally - and then use that to shotgun-kill multiple planets and moons from however many star systems away they were from Hosnian Prime. And then as mentioned the Planetkiller Star Destroyer fleet. Again, like the Death Stars, built in secret and nobody seemed to find out about them until they were unleashed upon the galaxy (or almost unleashed in the case of the PKSDs, where only one actually got put to use).

If anything, the Sequel Trilogy alone probably upped the ante way, way beyond the "200 gigatons" of the EU...
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Re: What factions could Canon Star Wars beat?

Post by Jub »

RogueIce wrote: 2021-05-16 03:03pm Yeah, I mean Star Wars always had the Death Stars, built in secret both times so clearly not overly draining to the galactic economy enough for anyone to notice.

And then the ST just ramps that up with Starkiller Base that can absorb the energy from a star - literally - and then use that to shotgun-kill multiple planets and moons from however many star systems away they were from Hosnian Prime. And then as mentioned the Planetkiller Star Destroyer fleet. Again, like the Death Stars, built in secret and nobody seemed to find out about them until they were unleashed upon the galaxy (or almost unleashed in the case of the PKSDs, where only one actually got put to use).

If anything, the Sequel Trilogy alone probably upped the ante way, way beyond the "200 gigatons" of the EU...
The ST may have upped the raw numbers, but it also introduced weapons that lob shots in space and that turbolasers have significant damage fall off after relatively short distances.
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Re: What factions could Canon Star Wars beat?

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

Batman wrote: 2021-05-16 02:53pm Never played Mass Effect or HALO so no opinion there
Mass Effect I can't answer in great detail, but I suspect that SW has a distinct advantage in strategic mobility/FTL speeds what with not needing to be tied to the Mass Relays.

Halo - the UNSC, the Covenant and the Flood would all go down hard. The Forerunners could happily fight the Empire at their height and win.

I'll also throw in the "Andromeda" factions - the Systems Commonwealth and Nietzcheans. Commonwealth might have a numbers advantage but their ships lack shields, FTL comms and sensors. Slipstream drive is most likely faster than hyperdrive though less reliable. As for the Magog, hmmm their Worldship versus the Death Star...interesting matchup.

The original BSG Cylons possibly come close to SW levels depending on how you interpret things.
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Re: What factions could Canon Star Wars beat?

Post by Tribble »

Sequel trilogy changes the advantage for War Planets IMO. The Beast Planet could definitely take on the Death Star and win, but it's doubtful it could take on an entire fleet of planet killer Star Destroyers all at once. Not too sure if it would win against the Star Killer Base: the ladder has far superior range and firepower, but it takes time to absorb a star, and the Beast Planet is fully capable of moving / FTL travel. It might depend on which one gets the drop on the other first?
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Re: What factions could Canon Star Wars beat?

Post by Solauren »

I don't think the Beast Planet can eat Stars. Otherwise, it could have simply eaten the War planets central Star, let them all freeze over, then eat them.
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Re: What factions could Canon Star Wars beat?

Post by bilateralrope »

Batman wrote: 2021-05-16 02:53pm Never played Mass Effect or HALO so no opinion there
Mass Effect has the quirk that their shields only project against physical objects. But they lose hard even without that coming into play.
Eternal_Freedom wrote: 2021-05-16 04:32pm Mass Effect I can't answer in great detail, but I suspect that SW has a distinct advantage in strategic mobility/FTL speeds what with not needing to be tied to the Mass Relays.
Plus those relays can take out a star system if they get blown up. Add in the lack of FTL sensors and the first sign of a SW ship trying to exterminate a star system could be the shockwave from the relay exploding.
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Re: What factions could Canon Star Wars beat?

Post by Tribble »

Solauren wrote: 2021-05-16 09:24pm I don't think the Beast Planet can eat Stars. Otherwise, it could have simply eaten the War planets central Star, let them all freeze over, then eat them.
True, but it can emerge from stars unharmed and shoot armoured moon busting shots from at least several millions of kilometres away. And tank planets ramming into it and/or exploding inside it without any apparent signs of damage. Plus the swarms of drones it can send out.

IMO Death Star would lose that fight one on one, though the combined Exogol fleet should be able to pull off a win. Getting hit with hundreds of planet killer weapons at once can’t be good for it.
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Re: What factions could Canon Star Wars beat?

Post by Solauren »

Also, the Beast planet probably as a 'containment unit' (or whatever it was called) like the drones and the named beast-planet natives. Hit that, and it dies.

And 'emerge' from a star is alot different then flying through it or consuming it. Technically speaking, floating at the edge of the Corona and flying away is emerging from the star.
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Re: What factions could Canon Star Wars beat?

Post by NecronLord »

I think with the Xyston fleet and the Starkiller base, they could probably take out most of the 40k factions, certainly the Imperium isn't going to survive a few weeks of the Starkiller striking key worlds as a single coherent polity, let alone hit and run attacks from Xystons. Taken together I think the two forces are fairly impressive.
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Re: What factions could Canon Star Wars beat?

Post by Solauren »

Using Starkiller Base and the Xyston Destroyer fleet (1080 ships according to Wookiepedia), assuming each had a recharge rate of 24 hours.

That could wipe out 1081 (or more) systems per day. More if they have faster recharge rates.

Could ANYONE short of the Culturevurse really resist them?

Heck, what would a Culture orbital do if it was hit by Starkiller base, or 10 or more superlaser shots?
(I'm actually curious on that one. I expect the Culture would be able to destroy the Final Order rather easily)
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Re: What factions could Canon Star Wars beat?

Post by bilateralrope »

Solauren wrote: 2021-05-17 12:04pm Heck, what would a Culture orbital do if it was hit by Starkiller base, or 10 or more superlaser shots?
(I'm actually curious on that one. I expect the Culture would be able to destroy the Final Order rather easily)
If they manage to hit the orbital, I don't know how well the shielding will withstand it. But, given the power of Culture weaponry and effectors, any ship with a superlaser is going to have trouble firing the shot.

Also orbitals are capable of FTL. Sure, Culture FTL is slower than SW Hyperdrive, but how much do they need to move to make it hard for Starkiller base to hit them ?

Maybe they get to take out two orbitals if they take the Culture by surprise. One with superlasers, another with Starkiller base. But that's it.
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Re: What factions could Canon Star Wars beat?

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

Solauren wrote: 2021-05-17 12:04pm Using Starkiller Base and the Xyston Destroyer fleet (1080 ships according to Wookiepedia), assuming each had a recharge rate of 24 hours.

That could wipe out 1081 (or more) systems per day. More if they have faster recharge rates.

Could ANYONE short of the Culturevurse really resist them?
Time War-era Daleks would eat the First/Final Order combo for lunch, burp, then happily move on. Time War era Time Lords (or probably any era Time Lords that we've seen) would do the same. Starkiller Base or Exegol would find themselves time-looped before they acted and sealed off from the rest of the universe for eternity (as was done to the villains of "The War Games") while the High Council sipped their tea and discussed changing their robe styles - or depending on whether Rassilon has been woken up, one DeMat gun shot fired after grabbing Palpatine with the Time Scoop would eliminate him and everything he's ever done from time.

Even without using time-travel, Time Lord or Dalek magnetrons can move planets over at least interstellar distances (possibly intergalactic). Pull Starkiller Base and Exegol into a star or the supermassive black hole at the galaxy's core, then resume sipping tea/yelling "Exterminate!" as appropriate.

So yeah. Night-night time.

31st century Federation would probably do the same if not quite so easily, weaponising time travel makes an awful lot of "insurmountable" threats go away.
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Re: What factions could Canon Star Wars beat?

Post by Tribble »

Eternal_Freedom wrote: 2021-05-17 12:56pm
Solauren wrote: 2021-05-17 12:04pm Using Starkiller Base and the Xyston Destroyer fleet (1080 ships according to Wookiepedia), assuming each had a recharge rate of 24 hours.

That could wipe out 1081 (or more) systems per day. More if they have faster recharge rates.

Could ANYONE short of the Culturevurse really resist them?
Time War-era Daleks would eat the First/Final Order combo for lunch, burp, then happily move on. Time War era Time Lords (or probably any era Time Lords that we've seen) would do the same. Starkiller Base or Exegol would find themselves time-looped before they acted and sealed off from the rest of the universe for eternity (as was done to the villains of "The War Games") while the High Council sipped their tea and discussed changing their robe styles - or depending on whether Rassilon has been woken up, one DeMat gun shot fired after grabbing Palpatine with the Time Scoop would eliminate him and everything he's ever done from time.

Even without using time-travel, Time Lord or Dalek magnetrons can move planets over at least interstellar distances (possibly intergalactic). Pull Starkiller Base and Exegol into a star or the supermassive black hole at the galaxy's core, then resume sipping tea/yelling "Exterminate!" as appropriate.

So yeah. Night-night time.

31st century Federation would probably do the same if not quite so easily, weaponising time travel makes an awful lot of "insurmountable" threats go away.
Ya, Doctor Who is massive overkill for the Star Wars universe, especially Time War era. Even without using their ultimate weapons like The Moment, the Reality Bomb, Ultimate Sanction etc, the war between the Daleks and Timelords left "every moment in space and time burning" with literal gods dying and apparently only a portion of the multiverse surviving. Plus things like Timelords literally inventing black holes? Better foe for them would be Xeelee and Photon birds (either of which would of course would curb stomp Star Wars).

Star Wars is upper middle tier at best, there are other much harder hitting franchises out there and barring Force users getting some precognition they are particularly vulnerable to anyone who has time travel.
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Re: What factions could Canon Star Wars beat?

Post by Solauren »

Yeah, anyone with time travel beats anyone without time travel. Simple as that.
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Re: What factions could Canon Star Wars beat?

Post by Bedlam »

NecronLord wrote: 2021-05-17 10:14am I think with the Xyston fleet and the Starkiller base, they could probably take out most of the 40k factions, certainly the Imperium isn't going to survive a few weeks of the Starkiller striking key worlds as a single coherent polity, let alone hit and run attacks from Xystons. Taken together I think the two forces are fairly impressive.
I'd say the Imperium isn't a single coherent polity in the first place. It would probably take years if not decades for the majority to realize you'd destroyed important worlds with the possible exception of Terra and that's a tough target.
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Re: What factions could Canon Star Wars beat?

Post by Solauren »

yeah, but Starkiller base can destroy Terra from across the galaxy. The Final Order could destroy Terra, and the Imperium not even know who did it for a long time.
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Re: What factions could Canon Star Wars beat?

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

Solauren wrote: 2021-05-18 09:02am yeah, but Starkiller base can destroy Terra from across the galaxy. The Final Order could destroy Terra, and the Imperium not even know who did it for a long time.
On the other hand, with only one or two Force users in place of psykers, I suspect the First/Final Order would get utterly fucked up by the denizens of the Warp.
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Re: What factions could Canon Star Wars beat?

Post by Solauren »

Oh, absolutely.

PROVIDED -
#1 - Hyperspace as it exists in Star Wars interacts with the Warp.
#2 - If #1 is true, how come it's not a problem in the GFFA? Some kind of shielding tech?
#3 - The First/Final Order can just shotgun repeated blasts with Starkiller base through Hyperspace, and clear out the warp.
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Re: What factions could Canon Star Wars beat?

Post by Batman »

Do we know the Warp exists universe wide or is it a localized phenomenon? Wars DOES happen in A Galaxy Far Far Away.
And can you actually clean out the Warp by blowing it up?
As for Starkiller Base destroying Terra from 'across the galaxy'-other than 'obviously interstellar' do we actually know the range? What are the variables? Stars come in a variety of sizes. Can she kill more systems/at a longer range with, say, a blue supergiant than a red dwarf? Does it even 'work' on anything other than Sol-type stars? Can it choose to blow up fewer targets but at a longer range? We know next to nothing on the limitations of that weapon
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Re: What factions could Canon Star Wars beat?

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

Solauren wrote: 2021-05-18 05:06pm Oh, absolutely.

PROVIDED -
#1 - Hyperspace as it exists in Star Wars interacts with the Warp.
#2 - If #1 is true, how come it's not a problem in the GFFA? Some kind of shielding tech?
#3 - The First/Final Order can just shotgun repeated blasts with Starkiller base through Hyperspace, and clear out the warp.
Interesting points. Usually in Versus arguments we assume each side's tech works as it normally does, so we might theorise that hyperspace and the Warp are the same thing, only the GFFA-Warp for some reason never developed Warp-entities like daemons and Khorne et al, and that 40K-Warp travel is slower because the Chaos Gods and other nightmares have riled it up something fierce (IIRC, Warp travel pre-Chaos Gods was a lot faster than it is in the main 40K era, as the Warp was "smoother").

As for point 3 - I honestly have no idea how that would play out. Killing a daemon in the real world just banishes it back to the Warp and it can be summoned again after a time. How that would work if the daemon is killed within the Warp, or if a Chaos God took the hit...yeah, no idea on that one.

Of course, while we know that Starkiller Base can fire at targets through[ hyperspace, that does not automatically mean it can fire at targets in hyperspace. And god knows what effect Warp Storms or the Eye of Terror might have on a shot's trajectory.

And also, Tzeentch might mess up their plans for shits and giggles, God of Magic and Trickery and all that.
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Re: What factions could Canon Star Wars beat?

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

Batman wrote: 2021-05-18 05:22pm Do we know the Warp exists universe wide or is it a localized phenomenon? Wars DOES happen in A Galaxy Far Far Away.
And can you actually clean out the Warp by blowing it up?
As for Starkiller Base destroying Terra from 'across the galaxy'-other than 'obviously interstellar' do we actually know the range? What are the variables? Stars come in a variety of sizes. Can she kill more systems/at a longer range with, say, a blue supergiant than a red dwarf? Does it even 'work' on anything other than Sol-type stars? Can it choose to blow up fewer targets but at a longer range? We know next to nothing on the limitations of that weapon
Good points. AFAIK the Warp exists across the entire universe (presumably like hyperspace). Blowing up a shitload of stuff in it probably doesn't clean it out though. At most you might temporarily disable some daemons, maybe one of the Gods (maybe), but the others would quite happily eat your soul while the weapon recharges.

As for Starkiller Base itself, we've seen it eat up what looked like a typical main-sequence G-type star (well I'm assuming main sequence G type, since the gun was built into a habitable planet circling a yellow star). I'm actually curious if it could survive being close enough to try eating an O-type blue supergiant, since at the approx 1 AU distance Starkiller was from the star it ate (again, an assumption based on it being built in a habitable world) it's be well inside a blue supergiant and probably quite toasty.
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