Saw Inception, did not enjoy it (spoilers)

[Modax]

I have heard all the praise this movie has received and I really wanted to love this movie, so I rented it the other day.

But from the beginning it was difficult for me to suspend disbelief in the premise. For one example the idea that you can just somehow 'import' an architectural design that you made on a piece of paper into someone else's subconscious just seems looney. Okay, so Fisher's subconscious is locked up like a guarded military base, but it's literally an actual base designed by Ariadne prior to them ever meeting?

The morally ambiguous nature of the film and its character is interesting, but I did not ever get emotionally invested in the movie. There just did not seem to be much at stake. And Leonardo Di Caprio was never really a believable character for me.

There were a lot of eye-rolling moments during the exposition, where it seems the movie doesn't even manage to be internally consistent. We see Ariadne exerting god-like control over one dream world, but when that power would come in handy during their mission it is never available for anyone. Why doesn't the tumbling van immediately wake up everyone if the sedative is 'customized to leave the inner ear unaffected', and the sensation of falling is all that is needed for the sensation of a 'kick'?

Ordinarily i could just ignore things like this, but this movie takes itself so seriously and has gotten so much praise. Overall I am just perplexed to be the only person I know who does not really like this film.

[DPDarkPrimus]

We see Ariadne exerting god-like control over one dream world, but when that power would come in handy during their mission it is never available for anyone.

You missed the part right after where it is learned that if you fuck around like that the entire dream turns on you and tries to kill you?

Why doesn't the tumbling van immediately wake up everyone if the sedative is 'customized to leave the inner ear unaffected', and the sensation of falling is all that is needed for the sensation of a 'kick'?

It's not the falling, it's when you stop falling.


These are some basic things that somehow you didn't pick up on, despite them being brought up.

[Modax]

You missed the part right after where it is learned that if you fuck around like that the entire dream turns on you and tries to kill you?

I remember that now. But for example when they are in the alpine base and the dream is already trying to kill them...why they can't dream up an airstrike or do anything special to help their mission? I think it would have been good for them to have been forced to 'fuck around' with the dream world and then have to deal with the consequences.

But anyway, that concept is pretty hard to believe on its own, because people in real life practice lucid dreaming and exert control over their dreams and obviously their dreams don't "turn against" them.

It's not the falling, it's when you stop falling.

I missed that detail. But it's somewhat confusing because when I dream i am falling, I always wake up before I land. i.e. it is the sensation of falling that wakes me up.

[Simon_Jester]

You missed the part right after where it is learned that if you fuck around like that the entire dream turns on you and tries to kill you?

I remember that now. But for example when they are in the alpine base and the dream is already trying to kill them...why they can't dream up an airstrike or do anything special to help their mission? I think it would have been good for them to have been forced to 'fuck around' with the dream world and then have to deal with the consequences.

But anyway, that concept is pretty hard to believe on its own, because people in real life practice lucid dreaming and exert control over their dreams and obviously their dreams don't "turn against" them.

Yeah, because it's their dream.

Here, you're basically sucking a person into dreaming a dream of your own design. There's a split in the power- the dreamer's subconscious 'populates' the dream, but the person who designed it also has power. The problem is that in a conflict between the designer and the subconscious of the person who's actually doing the dreamer, the subconscious tends to win. Hence the need for a degree of subtlety.

When people deliberately dive into their own dreamscape, it's a whole different matter. That's a plot point in the story- look at what happened when Cobb and his wife went into their own dream. They had tremendous power over the dream-world, and there was no direct danger to them there from doing so... indeed, the power became so addictive it was hard for them to want to stop.

It's not the falling, it's when you stop falling.

I missed that detail. But it's somewhat confusing because when I dream i am falling, I always wake up before I land. i.e. it is the sensation of falling that wakes me up.

I can sort of get that, though I've never actually had the falling dream- I don't know why. I think in this case it's best to just accept that as one of the premises of the story; it may not square with your own experience of dreaming, but almost by definition your experience of dreaming isn't universal.

[SylasGaunt]

I remember that now. But for example when they are in the alpine base and the dream is already trying to kill them...why they can't dream up an airstrike or do anything special to help their mission? I think it would have been good for them to have been forced to 'fuck around' with the dream world and then have to deal with the consequences.

Because the more you make changes you make the more hostile the dreamworld gets and the sooner it can zero in on the person actually dreaming the dream (which if they get killed will screw your hole plan).

[Dave]

Why doesn't the tumbling van immediately wake up everyone if the sedative is 'customized to leave the inner ear unaffected', and the sensation of falling is all that is needed for the sensation of a 'kick'?

It's not the falling, it's when you stop falling.

No, it's not the impact. During their test runs in the warehouse they showed scenes where someone was sleeping, a colleague pushed over the chair, and they woke up fast enough to catch themselves.

However, sometimes they won't wake up from shaking/falling (e.g. when they did the job on the train at the beginning of the movie, and Dom wouldn't wake) and they resorted to dunking him in a bathtub.

Of course, didn't Dom take his own sweet time after the van was submerged? (Arthur, sitting on the shore afterwards: "It's a pity Dom didn't make it." Ariadne: "No... he made it.")

[Kingmaker]

The van tumbling doesn't wake them up because by that point they're already asleep in the hotel. Hence the need for the kick in the elevator.

[Skgoa]

And Dom didn't wake up because he was going even deeper to get Seto.

[Dread Not]

The van tumbling doesn't wake them up because by that point they're already asleep in the hotel. Hence the need for the kick in the elevator.

The motions of the van still should have woken up Arthur, unless there is something that prevented it. The best explanation I've heard is that people dreaming within his dream keeps him anchored to his dream in the hotel, since otherwise the dream will collapse, leading to a paradox of sorts.

I really wish Christopher Nolan would just come out and clarify some of the rules of his universe. Some speculation is fun, but figuring out some of the elements can feel like work.

For one example the idea that you can just somehow 'import' an architectural design that you made on a piece of paper into someone else's subconscious just seems looney. Okay, so Fisher's subconscious is locked up like a guarded military base, but it's literally an actual base designed by Ariadne prior to them ever meeting?

That is quite adequately explained IMO. Each shared dream has a dreamer and a subject. The dreamer builds the world, the subject populates it with their subconscious. Everyone else sharing the dream are observers/inhabitants. The architect, Ariadne, designs each dream world and then teaches the designs to each dreamer: Yusaf, Arthur and Eames. In order to achieve extraction, the dream is designed with a secure location like a safe or vault. The subject's subconscious then feels secure in storing the secrets of their mind in that metaphorical safe location, allowing for Cobb and his team to steal it.

[DatBurnTho11]

The best explanation I've heard is that people dreaming within his dream keeps him anchored to his dream in the hotel, since otherwise the dream will collapse, leading to a paradox of sorts.

That's what I thought too, makes the most sense. I guess the movie really didn't have time to spell out all the rules of this process, but that seems handwavable.

There just did not seem to be much at stake.

I actually had a similar concern after watching Inception. Once they realized they were facing a "militarized subconscious", the whole team was willing to bail. Cob convinced them that the only way to get out of there alive was to stay the course and complete the plan despite the danger. This defined the tension in the movie: they had to complete this mission for their very survival.

BUT, I don't think Cob's explanation of "the only way out is through" makes sense.

If we identify each "dream within a dream" with a layer number n, we can say that reality in the airplane was n=0, the dream with the car chase in the rainy city was n=1, the hotel was n=2, etc.

The movie's clear that with sedation, people on layer n cannot control their motion to n-1. Further, there is no way to communicate from n to n-1.

Because of the sedation, there were only two ways to "wake up" (move from n to n-1):
1) Wait until the dream expires by the dreamer in n-1 naturally waking up
2) Undergo a "drop" on layer n-1

All right, so on layer n=1, the team is unexpectedly confronted with Fischer's militarized projections, and they discuss their options:
a) Killing themselves to wakeup
b) Waiting out / evading the projections until the dream expires (someone said this would be a week in n=1 time)
c) Continue with their plan

I'll accept a) won't work because of the sedation. But they dismiss b) out of hand and go right to c).

I was thinking about this a bit. They have no control of their motion from n=1 to n=0. They're dependent on conditions 1) or 2) occurring in n=0 to move up. And they can't communicate with the guys on n=0, to tell them they were successful or were aborting the mission. Even if they complete the mission, they are stuck in n=1 until n=0 performs a drop or a natural wake-up. Either way they're stuck in n=1 until something happens in n=0. And from the perspective of n=0, it doesn't matter whether the team does b) or c).

In short, since they're stuck on n=1 for a set amount of time either way, why not focus on evading the projections instead of continuing the plan?

So where's the tension? I mean, it's nice for the action/excitement element of the film that they banded together and proceeded with the plan. Don't get me wrong I thought the movie was really fun. But, I couldn't help but think why these guys are willing to go along with what would be a really dangerous plan! If they follow option b), I'm sure they'd be much safer all working together to evade the projections rather than having all but one of the team unconscious!

[Simon_Jester]

Evading an army of commandos (or their subconscious dreamscape equivalent) for a week is probably pretty tough. That might influence their choice not to pick (b).

[Zac Naloen]

Sato was also dying, whilst being Cobbs ticket home. Cobb didn't have a week to wait. He had a matter of hours or the whole reason for the mission is bust.

[DatBurnTho11]

Evading an army of commandos (or their subconscious dreamscape equivalent) for a week is probably pretty tough. That might influence their choice not to pick (b).

Right, but once they finish their mission what will they have to do? Evade an army of commandos for a week.

This is based on the idea that nothing they do on level n will allow them to go to level n-1, which I think is supported by the movie. Why would going to the lower levels shorten the time they would be in level n=1?

Also, Sato may be dying and they can go lower to extend the relative amount of time he had to live. But, once the mission is over, they return to n=1. There they still have to wait until the dream ends, and so Sato will die at that point. You're letting him experience more hours, but you're not saving him from dying.

[YT300000]

Once they completed the inception and returned to the rainy city dream level, Fischer's projections were no longer attacking them. Presumably, this is because they were no longer trying to make any changes, and so were not treated as a threat. Since they need to spend a week on that dream level anyway (they can't cut the dream short until the clock runs out on the PASIV), the only way that they can reasonably survive the next six and a half days is if they're not under attack. Of course, the movie doesn't show them waiting around for nearly a week, because that wouldn't be terribly interesting.

[DatBurnTho11]

Once they completed the inception and returned to the rainy city dream level, Fischer's projections were no longer attacking them. Presumably, this is because they were no longer trying to make any changes, and so were not treated as a threat.

All right. So why didn't they just stop trying to make changes right away so they would no longer be perceived as a threat? Why did they have to go through with the mission before they could start laying low?

Yeah, I wouldn't want to see a movie just of guys trying to hide for 7 days It was just in my back of my mind the whole movie: Why are they putting up with this? Remember these guys were more than willing to shoot themselves and bail right away once they found out how difficult this would be. The reason they continued is because they were convinced it was the only way to survive. But, I really don't see how that's the case.

[Simon_Jester]

For Cobb, because if he steps off the plane without Saito making that phone call, he's screwed.

For the others, I don't really know- Cobb probably had to do a lot of fast-talking.

[DatBurnTho11]

All right, let me restate what I'm saying. Here's what we've got.

- There is no way to move from n=1 to n=0 from level n=1
- There is no way to communicate from n=1 to n=0
- Due to time dilation, they are in level n=1 for around a week.


Here are their options:

They go through with the mission
The team goes under sedation while one team member drives them around, evading the projections and planning the drop. After everyone's back, they lay low for the rest of the week.

The all avoid the projections
They lay low for a whole week.


Now, tell me why they didn't chose the second option.

For Cobb, because if he steps off the plane without Saito making that phone call, he's screwed.

As for the Saito thing, it managed to work out somehow (if you believe the ending), but how could they have know that they would magic him back to life? Again, even going under, they'd eventually come back to n=1 for a whole week. It didn't seem like he had much time left at n=1. Hell he died at level n=3!

For the others, I don't really know- Cobb probably had to do a lot of fast-talking.

So this only works if the characters were idiots...

[Simon_Jester]

They go through with the mission
The team goes under sedation while one team member drives them around, evading the projections and planning the drop. After everyone's back, they lay low for the rest of the week.

The all avoid the projections
They lay low for a whole week.

Because it will be a fuckton more difficult for them to lay low before succeeding in the mission; they've already roused the 'immune system' of the n=1 level, and have been perceived as outsiders to be destroyed by that immune system.

If they succeed, this is resolved and they will not be actively hunted down for the remaining week, which makes it much easier to lay low and avoid the projections.

[DatBurnTho11]

Because it will be a fuckton more difficult for them to lay low before succeeding in the mission; they've already roused the 'immune system' of the n=1 level, and have been perceived as outsiders to be destroyed by that immune system.

If they succeed, this is resolved and they will not be actively hunted down for the remaining week, which makes it much easier to lay low and avoid the projections.

Hm... Hadn't thought of it that way. It seems a bit of a stretch, why would completing the mission stop the n=1 militarized projections from hunting the team? But that's actually the best explanation I've heard so far

[Simon_Jester]

Because by reaching the secure level they plan to reach (n=3), and co-opting editing Fischer's subconscious, at least potentially lets them 'write themselves in' and stop screwing around.

The reaction of the 'militarized subconscious' is essentially an immune response; once you are detected as an element that does not belong, you are attacked. By adjusting your environment so that you do belong in it (now), you make yourself safe... assuming you survive that long.

[YT300000]

Once they completed the inception and returned to the rainy city dream level, Fischer's projections were no longer attacking them. Presumably, this is because they were no longer trying to make any changes, and so were not treated as a threat.

All right. So why didn't they just stop trying to make changes right away so they would no longer be perceived as a threat? Why did they have to go through with the mission before they could start laying low?

The nature of the inception is that once it's completed, the new idea is seen as being native to Fischer's mind. It belongs, and by extension Cobb and the team belong and are no longer targeted. Prior to the inception, they will continue to be pursued and quite quickly discovered (like in the warehouse).

This is also the basis for the shot of Fischer and Browning after they escape the sinking van and are sitting on the shore - the camera tracks around them, Browning is obscured by Fischer, and when we see him from the other side, he is now an undisguised Eames. The inception is successful, and no more deception is necessary.

[Dread Not]

The best explanation I've heard is that people dreaming within his dream keeps him anchored to his dream in the hotel, since otherwise the dream will collapse, leading to a paradox of sorts.

That's what I thought too, makes the most sense. I guess the movie really didn't have time to spell out all the rules of this process, but that seems handwavable.

If that is the rule in effect then they could have communicated it to the audience without much difficulty if you ask me. While Arthur and Ariadne are setting up the explosives in the hotel room Arthur could have thrown in a line like "The sooner we get you all down to the third layer the better. Any one of these bumps the van is hitting could potentially wake us all up. You guys dreaming underneath me will keep me anchored here."

That whole sequence is really the only part of the movie that still bugs me. There's also the problem where the van is flipping, causing the whole spinning hallway sequence. This should have caused all sorts of mayhem in the fortress level as the team are rolled across the floor and against the walls in their hotel room. That should have also caused Fischer and Ariadne to wake up as they fall off the bed/fall out of their chair.

A lot of people also question why the zero gravity effect doesn't carry forward past the hotel level. This bugs me less. Since it's Arthur's dream, whatever stimuli his sleeping body experiences effects the entire world of the hotel layer. The world is swaying and flipping etc. because its what he's experiencing. What the rest of the team is experiencing only effects them personally, and not the dream world (eg Saito's injury carrying forward). The team experiencing zero gravity in the hotel also wouldn't carry forward, since floating doesn't give the body a feeling of weightlessness. No force is being exerted on the team's bodies, and so it shouldn't be much different than laying on a bed with gravity and normal force cancelling each other out.

Because it will be a fuckton more difficult for them to lay low before succeeding in the mission; they've already roused the 'immune system' of the n=1 level, and have been perceived as outsiders to be destroyed by that immune system.

If they succeed, this is resolved and they will not be actively hunted down for the remaining week, which makes it much easier to lay low and avoid the projections.

Hm... Hadn't thought of it that way. It seems a bit of a stretch, why would completing the mission stop the n=1 militarized projections from hunting the team? But that's actually the best explanation I've heard so far

There are several factors that may of may not have played a role.

1) Fischer was no longer being held in captivity. His projections only started attacking after he was abducted.
2) As far as Fischer was aware, his abductors were dead. They stayed below the water for several minutes using breathing masks and swam out of sight.
3) The inception has put Fischer into a state of catharsis. He is no longer in danger and his dream has eased his subconscious into a relaxed state and is no longer interested in the team.

[Cykeisme]

The team experiencing zero gravity in the hotel also wouldn't carry forward, since floating doesn't give the body a feeling of weightlessness. No force is being exerted on the team's bodies, and so it shouldn't be much different than laying on a bed with gravity and normal force cancelling each other out.

That is incorrect.

Lying on a bed in 1G is not the same as floating in a zero-G environment.

While the object (person's body) as a whole is neither moving nor accelerating in both cases, in the first case, the body is still under the effects of a 1G gravitational field.

[Dread Not]

The team experiencing zero gravity in the hotel also wouldn't carry forward, since floating doesn't give the body a feeling of weightlessness. No force is being exerted on the team's bodies, and so it shouldn't be much different than laying on a bed with gravity and normal force cancelling each other out.

That is incorrect.

Lying on a bed in 1G is not the same as floating in a zero-G environment.

While the object (person's body) as a whole is neither moving nor accelerating in both cases, in the first case, the body is still under the effects of a 1G gravitational field.

But would the team be able to tell the difference? My point is that free-fall will give a much different sensation than simply floating. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Cykeisme]

Negative on that.
Being in free-fall (example: being in a container dropped out the back of an airplane) is completely indistinguishable from floating around in zero-G.

An inertial frame of reference, I think you'd call it.. an accelerometer would show zero.