SGA 4x12: Spoils of War

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2008-01-15 03:31am

Yes, if you deliberately fuck up a ZPM with exotic particles that aren't inherent to its composition, it will blow up a solar system.

If you stick enough shit in a nuclear reactor, it will blow up a large city. That doesn't mean a normally functioning reactor has the same capability for disaster.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2008-01-15 03:49am

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Yes, if you deliberately fuck up a ZPM with exotic particles that aren't inherent to its composition, it will blow up a solar system.

Smearing some splodex, or whatever it was, on the casing doesn't notably increase its energy reserve. That much energy had to be in it anyway, unless you think the goa'uld have system-shattering chemical explosives that are invisible to the naked eye.

If you stick enough shit in a nuclear reactor, it will blow up a large city. That doesn't mean a normally functioning reactor has the same capability for disaster.

Yes. And that reactor can only explode with as much force as its fuel can supply. More to the point, unlike a nuclear reactor, when a ZPM fails, it fails on. It explodes, releasing all its stored energy.

Say you've built a ZPM, but a transcription error alters a parameter on its failsafe software...

SGA Critical Mass wrote: McKAY: The problem is, our Trust operative figured out a way to rewrite Atlantis' operating system and disable the failsafes, but mask it in such a way that the city sensors didn't detect it.

WEIR: So the dialling of Earth would cause the ZeeP.M. to overload.

McKAY: Oh, yeah! And given that dialling another galaxy requires tremendous amounts of power, we're talking catastrophic overload. I mean, the explosion would destroy not just the city, but, uh, most likely the entire planet.

Do you want to be testing the thing on your home world, or somewhere where only the technicians responsible (or better yet, no one) will die? Bear in mind that this thing fits into a knapsack, and you can cross the galaxy in a step.

Themightytom · Post by **Themightytom** » 2008-01-15 09:58am

Do you want someone else to take over your ZPM factory? Do youw ant to be cut off from your ZPM factory when the population of an entire city depends on it?

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2008-01-15 10:50am

Themightytom wrote:Do you want someone else to take over your ZPM factory? Do youw ant to be cut off from your ZPM factory when the population of an entire city depends on it?

Do you want it to wipe out your population center in case of a malfunction? Oh, wait...

CaptJodan · Post by **CaptJodan** » 2008-01-15 10:57am

NecronLord wrote: The Asurans clearly didn't build their ZPMs off-world. Why would the Ancients need to?

What gives you that idea? We saw them in use. Not being made. It's not like Asuras had buried its stargate or anything; it was clearly in a non-restricted access civillian area.[/quote]

Maybe the fact that the Asurans are all considered dead...that their homeworld has been destroyed and that no other facility is known to exist might clue you into the fact that they build them on-site. Until someone comes around and says "Hey, we found a facility the Asurans were using to create their ZPMs", then they likely were creating them on their homeworld.

So far, all you've come up with are examples of completed, tampered ZPMs with destructive capabilities. If someone deliberately sabotages a nuclear reactor, then the effects can be far reaching. Nothing different here with the ZPMs (and of course we've seen 3 ZPMs with far less destructive energy via Rodney's sabotage, so a ZPMs destructive capability varies considerably on how you fuck with it). In their natural, un-tampered state, they are remarkably stable. There is no reason or evidence that ZPM creation is inherently a dangerous process.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2008-01-15 10:59am

NecronLord wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote:Yes, if you deliberately fuck up a ZPM with exotic particles that aren't inherent to its composition, it will blow up a solar system.
Smearing some splodex, or whatever it was, on the casing doesn't notably increase its energy reserve. That much energy had to be in it anyway, unless you think the goa'uld have system-shattering chemical explosives that are invisible to the naked eye.

You make some good points, except in the SG-verse we already have two examples of materials which greatly enhance the explosive force of nuclear and thermonuclear explosions (naquadah, naquadriah) so it isn't unreasonable to assume more variants exist.

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2008-01-15 12:25pm

CaptainChewbacca wrote:
JME2 wrote:I also liked how Teyla's finally getting character development that we haven't seen since the first season. Now if only the same could happen for Ronon. Overall, a nice end to the mid-season trilogy.

4.5/5
From the spoilers I've seen about Ronan, [size=0]He and doctor Kaylee are going to start having some sort of relationship[/size].

Hmm. Well, it'd certainly be better than what they've done with his character thus far.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2008-01-15 12:59pm

CaptainChewbacca wrote:You make some good points, except in the SG-verse we already have two examples of materials which greatly enhance the explosive force of nuclear and thermonuclear explosions (naquadah, naquadriah) so it isn't unreasonable to assume more variants exist.

What? So Camulus had access to an explosive millions of times more powerful than Naqadriah? Why is he not Supreme System Lord?

Post by **NecronLord** » 2008-01-15 01:15pm

CaptJodan wrote:Maybe the fact that the Asurans are all considered dead...that their homeworld has been destroyed and that no other facility is known to exist

Because, of course, the Tau'ri have checked every star system. Not to mention whatever space stations or similar facilities might exist away from habited, gated planets.

might clue you into the fact that they build them on-site. Until someone comes around and says "Hey, we found a facility the Asurans were using to create their ZPMs", then they likely were creating them on their homeworld.

Presumably. Of course, I'm pretty sure they're not going to stay dead, even though their current homeworld is destroyed.

While it's certainly possible that the Asurans may have such facilities on their homeworld, or in the same system, it's not particularly cautious; but then, they don't seem to be that worried about most things around them - they didn't bother to let the Atlantis team smack into a stargate shield, for example. On the other hand, the theory that there's one in Atlantis

So far, all you've come up with are examples of completed, tampered ZPMs with destructive capabilities. If someone deliberately sabotages a nuclear reactor, then the effects can be far reaching. Nothing different here with the ZPMs (and of course we've seen 3 ZPMs with far less destructive energy via Rodney's sabotage

The sabotage that made the Asuran city ship explode very slowy from various different points, including its outer piers, rather than producing a single (or triple) blast. The city was destroyed by explosions coming from its central tower, and the base of each pier, not by a single blast from the central tower, as one would expect if a single large explosive were set off there. I would assume he just dialled up the output until it quickly exceeded the city's heat-sink capacity, rather than destroyed the (elsewhere stated to be vastly more volatile) devices themselves.

, so a ZPMs destructive capability varies considerably on how you fuck with it). In their natural, un-tampered state, they are remarkably stable.

Remarkably stable? Are you kidding? They can be made to explode by invisible amounts of explosives used by a race far inferior to their designers. Sure, they last a very long time, and appear to be extremely reliable, but I've seen nothing to suggest they're particularly durable.

Themightytom wrote:Do you want someone else to take over your ZPM factory? Do youw ant to be cut off from your ZPM factory when the population of an entire city depends on it?

Why not? They're the Ancients (or Asurans) they don't need to worry about anyone else dialling in; they've shields, and they could simply set the stargate on the relevant planet to only accept incoming wormholes from one planet (Before I Sleep). And what are the chances that anyone will find it? These things are detectable from space, sure, but as far as we know, not from interstellar distances. And even if they do; it's a ZPM production factory. I'm sure you could spare a fair bit of power to supply defences for it.

Of course, the Ancients appeared to be so foolish or callous (I'm not sure which is worse) as to put a highly experimental, potentially dangerous and even more powerful defense system on a world inhabited by a 'wonderful race of people' whom said device promptly exterminated (Trinity), over the researchers on site' objections, mind, but it was still a stupid location for something so dangerous. So I must conceede that their putting something that's potentially dangerous (if to a far lesser degree) on their own doorstep isn't that unlikely.

Gustav32Vasa · Post by **Gustav32Vasa** » 2008-01-15 02:49pm

NecronLord wrote:What? So Camulus had access to an explosive millions of times more powerful than Naqadriah? Why is he not Supreme System Lord?

Wasnt he a System Lord before he lost everything to Baal and Camulus defected to Earth?

I think that youre right, didnt Sam say that the ZPM had been changed so it would release all its energy at once.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2008-01-15 03:10pm

Gustav32Vasa wrote:Wasnt he a System Lord before he lost everything to Baal and Camulus defected to Earth?

Supreme System Lord. Over-Ruler of the Goa'uld. Ra and Anubis, basically. If he had an explosive so powerful that a tiny smear could blast planets, how would they stop him? All he'd need to do is toss grenades through stargates and he'd have wiped out his enemies within a day. Even Anubis would simply have to beg for mercy and start kissing his feet.

Never mind that Doctor Lee took a 'microscopic' sample of it and induced charge. If the explosive were meaningfully contributing to solar system destroying power, it would have blasted Cheyanne Mountain up beyond escape velocity.

Compare, if you will, to the Naquadah-Potassium reaction in Singularity, where they can't even test it in the same room, it's so powerful.

I think that youre right, didnt Sam say that the ZPM had been changed so it would release all its energy at once.

Perhaps you are thinking of this:

Zero Hour wrote:LEE: We were gonna send it to Antarctica! Look, can you imagine if someone had taken it and plugged it into the chair in the Ancient outpost? I-I can't even imagine the magnitude of the explosion. A charged Z.P.M. detonating that -- I don't know, I mean, it could have destroyed the whole planet.

1138 · Post by **1138** » 2008-01-15 04:56pm

NecronLord wrote: Remarkably stable? Are you kidding? They can be made to explode by invisible amounts of explosives used by a race far inferior to their designers. Sure, they last a very long time, and appear to be extremely reliable, but I've seen nothing to suggest they're particularly durable.

Well, they didn't explode catastrophically when the ship that was containing them was destroyed (e.g. Asuran city ship and Odyssey). Maybe that was the level of damage the Ancients designed them for and they considered it sufficient.

1138 · Post by **1138** » 2008-01-15 05:02pm

Sorry, I didn't realize there was no editing. By catastrophically I mean solar-system or planet destroying explosion. The Asuran city ship was already over Atlantis when it overloaded. It's been awhile since I saw the episode, so I don't remember how far it was from Atlantis when that happened.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2008-01-15 05:21pm

It was in a fairly normal orbit. See above for my comments on that; I don't think that was the ZPMs exploding, so much as the city not being able to take the overload output.

Xon · Post by **Xon** » 2008-01-15 05:28pm

It is fairly clear that the ZPM itself doesnt contain the energy it supplies, hell it is stated they draw from a pocket of subspace linked to the ZPM.

That the ZPM can be safely transported via the various teleportation devices in Stargate, indicates that the ZPM is the doorway to the actual source of energy and not physical container of said energy.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2008-01-15 05:35pm

What precisely was the point of that post? We know. The point is, sometimes they explode with... ultraviolence... sometimes, they're simply lost or buried in explosions (as in this episode, where one assumes the ZPMs are in the wreckage somewhere.)

CaptJodan · Post by **CaptJodan** » 2008-01-15 06:17pm

NecronLord wrote:What precisely was the point of that post? We know. The point is, sometimes they explode with... ultraviolence... sometimes, they're simply lost or buried in explosions

Ultraviolence that isn't demonstrated without tampering. There is ample enough evidence here that a ZPM doesn't just spontaneously explode through minor mismanagement or because someone dropped it on the floor too hard. Lost, buried in explosions, but retaining their ability to supply power when needed thousands of years later. Seems pretty damn durable to me.

The ZPMs, when set to explode, explode violently. But the whole point is that they are not intrinsically barely contained bombs waiting to go off. While we know absolutely nothing about the process for creating a ZPM, to take a few small examples of a functional ZPM exploding when it was modified to do so and declaring the process of making one too dangerous to have on a heavily populated world is a leap.

(as in this episode, where one assumes the ZPMs are in the wreckage somewhere.)

As a perfect example of a stable system that doesn't cause massive explosions when exposed to high levels of trauma (such as the destruction of that base, or the Asuran city).

Themightytom · Post by **Themightytom** » 2008-01-15 07:13pm

Dahak wrote: Do you want it to wipe out your population center in case of a malfunction? Oh, wait...

ZELENKA: The ZPM is reaching critical energy state, its overloading!
MCKAY: If that ZPM goes it could vaporize the entire city!
SCOTTY: SHe's gonna blow cap'n
SHEPERD [grabs ZPM and throws it through the stargate]
[After a long pause]
MCKAY: Why was Scotty here?

I really don't think its a disaster if somehow the ubersafe futuristic ZPM started to do anything bad, the ancients had two others as backups, the Expedition has Naquida generators which are much more volatile and a ready means of disposing anything dangerous.