GE v Shivans(Descent Freespace 1 & 2)

[Mobird53]

Two scenerios of war between the GE and the shivans of Descent Freespace 1 and 2.

1) A huge battle of fleet versus fleet. The empires fleet is that of the one in the end of Return of the jedi. The Shivans, just as big. Who would win????(just one big battle to decide the entire war)

2) A long and agonizing war of battle upon battle, little skirmishes until some one wins. Who would?

And don't forget the shielding around Lucifer class ships can Only be penetrated in subspace. Don't forget about beam cannons. if u haven't played one AND two than do research or play them. And don't forget about the number of satanis class ships around the star.

P.S.-Hey admins if this should be in other scifi than sorry, just move it for me. not sure were it would go. Thanks and sorry in advance if it is.

[Ace Pace]

Freespace verse gets pwned, no matter who you put it up against, simply due to range.

Firefights are in the hundreds of meters range, capital ships fire in the low kilometers range, I think max range demonstrated was in the lower tens.
Acceleration is closer to shit then anything, as well as 'max speed'.

The verse rocks, it just can't compete for crap.

[HSRTG]

For the reasons Ace has stated above, plus the consensus has been that Freespace verse has weapons in the 10-30 gigaton range. Star Wars's guns are in the high gigatons, low teratons. No matter how good the Freespace shields are, when they're being hit by hundreds of teratons to petatons per second, they'll feel something.

Not to mention that the entirety of the Shivan fleet, taken together, is a rounding error in comparison to the Empire's. So, fleet to fleet battle, GE wins. Lots of skirmishes, GE wins. I'm not sure how fast Freespace FTL is, but unless it's comparable to the GE's, the skirmishes will quickly turn into curbstomps.

[Mobird53]

I don't know about the low weapons power, cause the Lucifer destroyed the vasudan home world. so it has to be at least more powefull than a star destroyer if one of them could destroy a planet in one hit. As for it's shields, if they couldn't be damaged by any one in the freespace verse cept in subspace it would take at least a couple star destroyers to take it down.

As for speed can't tell, cause they can only jump at jump nodes, so theres no way to tell what would happen in SW universe. and visa versa for the GE.

[Ace Pace]

I don't know about the low weapons power, cause the Lucifer destroyed the vasudan home world. so it has to be at least more powefull than a star destroyer if one of them could destroy a planet in one hit. As for it's shields, if they couldn't be damaged by any one in the freespace verse cept in subspace it would take at least a couple star destroyers to take it down.

As for speed can't tell, cause they can only jump at jump nodes, so theres no way to tell what would happen in SW universe. and visa versa for the GE.

Lets watch the video again. The homeworld was NOT destroyed, it was made uninhabitable, at no point was the world destroyed.

And speeds would still be low, as it takes several minutes plus to go from a solar system to another in the same quadrent. The GE can do far better.

[Mobird53]

I don't know about the low weapons power, cause the Lucifer destroyed the vasudan home world. so it has to be at least more powefull than a star destroyer if one of them could destroy a planet in one hit. As for it's shields, if they couldn't be damaged by any one in the freespace verse cept in subspace it would take at least a couple star destroyers to take it down.

As for speed can't tell, cause they can only jump at jump nodes, so theres no way to tell what would happen in SW universe. and visa versa for the GE.

Lets watch the video again. The homeworld was NOT destroyed, it was made uninhabitable, at no point was the world destroyed.

And speeds would still be low, as it takes several minutes plus to go from a solar system to another in the same quadrent. The GE can do far better.

By speed i meant that they can't really be compared cause in FS u can only jump at nodes. and in SW u can ne were. So it isn't known if SW ships would have to use nodes or not if they in the FS verse. and if FS in SW verse than they might be completely stuck as (as far as we know) there are no nodes. That is what i meant by can't compare. it takes minutes cause they have to go from node to node. Yes the Ge can get to places faster, but thats cause they dont have to go from node to node. If the terrans, vausdan, or shivans didn't have to that they might be as fast. but like i said u can't really tell as the FS verse and SW verse are differnt in sub/hyper space travelling.

[Stark]

No, idiot, the trip through the node takes longer than the GE would simply using hyperdrive. Hence, FS is slower (as well as weaker, less firepower, etc).

EDIT - He even uses the 'invincible Lucifer shield' thing! It's like he doesn't know that 'no limits' is a fallacy.

[Vympel]

Moved to the appropriate forum ....

[HSRTG]

That is what i meant by can't compare. it takes minutes cause they have to go from node to node. Yes the Ge can get to places faster, but thats cause they dont have to go from node to node.

Concession accepted on the speed then. So the Shivans are outgunned as well as outmaneuvered when it comes to fighting against the Empire.

as it takes several minutes plus to go from a solar system to another in the same quadrent.

Out of curiosity's sake, how big is a quadrant? Since it's obvious that the Shivans can't take the fight to the Empire, I want to know how well they'd defend.

[Stark]

Since the systems in FS aren't necessarily the systems they're named after (since they can't get anywhere else and the 3d maps shown in cutscenes don't match their physical locations) there's not much information on how far apart their systems are. It's clearly not a serious slice of the galaxy, though.

Hilariously, even if the Shivans were dangerous, the Empire could simply destabilise all the nodes below the point where the Shivans can use them.

[Ace Pace]

As Stark said, there are known inconsistencies in the FS maps and the real world, and between FS1 and FS2 maps.

However, we can assume it's basically our neighborhood, certinly no farther then what would be a few minutes drive for the GE.

[Hotfoot]

And don't forget the shielding around Lucifer class ships can Only be penetrated in subspace. Don't forget about beam cannons. if u haven't played one AND two than do research or play them. And don't forget about the number of satanis class ships around the star.

OKay, this part alone makes me want to kill you. First of all, the shields of the Lucifer could only be BYPASSED in 1 by attacking it in Subspace, using the weapons the GTVA had in the first game, which was woefully lacking compared to the armament in the second game. The generally accepted thought is that the beam weapons from 2 would make short work of the Lucifer from 1. You are also treading on a no-limits fallacy, claiming that because the GTVA couldn't do it, NOBODY could, which is idiotic. This is like saying that because cavemen couldn't fight off a modern Main Battle Tank, nobody could. Clearly this is not true, because even in the modern conflict in Iraq, we have lost several such tanks to weapons carried by otherwise normal human beings. It is clearly shown that the Galactic Empire is vastly superior to the races in Freespace on just about every level, so to assume the couldn't damage the shielding on the Lucifer is ludicrious.

I still can't fucking believe how many people still buy the Lucifer = Invul crap. It's live every person that starts one of these threads buys into it.

I don't know about the low weapons power, cause the Lucifer destroyed the vasudan home world. so it has to be at least more powefull than a star destroyer if one of them could destroy a planet in one hit.

It's been a while since I've seen the cutscenes, but I don't recall Death Star-like destruction from just one hit. Ace described it as making the planet unlivable, which is hardly the same as boiling off the oceans and turning the land into molten rock, or blowing the planet into pieces a la Death Star.

As for it's shields, if they couldn't be damaged by any one in the freespace verse cept in subspace it would take at least a couple star destroyers to take it down.

I know I covered this already, sparky, but a second time shouldn't be a problem. See, we tend to measure things here by firepower calculations, not gut feelings, or worse, game mechanics. A single Star Destroyer can throw out damage so powerful that it makes the biggest gun in Freespace look like so much spooge from a Jack Russel Terrier.

Had you done a simple search for Freespace and Star Wars in this forum, you would have found at least two previous threads that have debated this into the ground, here and here

Naturally, had you expanded your search somewhat, you would have found Wing Commander vs. Freespace, and of course Wing Commander vs. Star Wars, from which to draw additional conclusions. Like the fact that I hate you. Not because you started the thread, but because you brought back the brain bug of Luci = Invul, something I THOUGHT I had beaten out of enough Freespace fans to be safe, but clearly I was wrong. Now, thanks to you, I'm going to start a guerilla war against ALL freespace fans that still think the Lucifer is impervious to ALL weapons even though the larger and more powerful Satanas was not, blah blah, so on and so forth.

When people ask what your role was in the coming holocaust of ruined memories, just tell them that you are the waker of the sleeping nightmare, and lament.

[Ace Pace]

And don't forget about the number of satanis class ships around the star.

Jesus, I just noticed this.

80 Sathanas as far as I know.

Goes like this; three wings of Fighters and bombers, If I recall the makeup of that mission perfectly it's four bombers, four fighter bombers and four fighters, manage to DISARM a Sathanas. Alone.
You Better have a good reason why the GE can't do that when they have torpedoes of far higher MT.

[Thag]

Not only that, but FS ships are tied to the jump nodes for travel between systems, while SW can go pretty much where they want. All the empire has to do is get in front of the Shivans, camp out at the exit nodes, and pick them off as they come through.

[Stark]

Jesus, I just noticed this.

80 Sathanas as far as I know.

Goes like this; three wings of Fighters and bombers, If I recall the makeup of that mission perfectly it's four bombers, four fighter bombers and four fighters, manage to DISARM a Sathanas. Alone.
You Better have a good reason why the GE can't do that when they have torpedoes of far higher MT.

Er, [V] gave Trebuchets ridiculously laughably stupidly high subsystem damage multipliers to make it work... so now Trebs rule any and all caps since they're not interceptable like bombs. Hilarious.

[Winston Blake]

Since the systems in FS aren't necessarily the systems they're named after (since they can't get anywhere else and the 3d maps shown in cutscenes don't match their physical locations) there's not much information on how far apart their systems are. It's clearly not a serious slice of the galaxy, though.

You're right, but that's GTVA space, whereas we actually have no idea where the Shivans themselves come from, or how many of them there are. The fleet of the first game was shown in the second to have been a mere scouting force, and Sathanas juggernauts were still streaming in through the farthest known Knossos gate when the Capella system was destroyed. Their territory is a complete mystery, and it's suggested that they're native to subspace itself and only come out to kill any civilisation that becomes starfaring. So we can only reasonably discuss SW fighting the seen 80+ Sathanas fleet, or the fleet invading the SW galaxy.

Now, I've only played FS2 and not for a few years, but I had an idea for estimating Knossos gate FTL speed:

MISSION BRIEFING 1

At 1540 hours, the GTD Aquitaine entered the subspace portal in Gamma Draconis and jumped to our current position. We have entered a nebula, a vast and dense ionized field, and possibly the remnant of a supernova. We have travelled farther than any Terrans in the history of subspace travel.

This means the Aquitaine took less than a day to jump into the nebula, otherwise he would have said 'At 1540 last Tuesday' or something.

The nebula is a remnant of a supernova thousands if not billions of light years from earth, and I wonder now if our ancestors witnessed the death of this star, erupting over the egyptian landscape, blazing with the brilliance of 400 million suns.

They apparently have no clear idea of where the hell the nebula is (not surprising given its impenetrable turbidity). Hence the lower limit for this journey is 2000 ly per day, or 730 kilocees. Upper limit is 730 gigacees, so a top-of-the-line GTVA destroyer might be 3 orders of magnitude faster than the fastest SW speeds when using a Knossos portal.

From the Gamma Draconis gate to the second Nebula gate to the far gate in the system beyond the nebula, we never saw where they come from. Shivan territory could be wanktastically big for all we know.

Hilariously, even if the Shivans were dangerous, the Empire could simply destabilise all the nodes below the point where the Shivans can use them.

Yes, since shield and weapons tech was reverse engineered from captured Shivan ships, it's almost certain that the Empire can capture ships without them self-destructing or anything. Once the Empire possesses the jump-drive, there is absolutely nothing the Shivans can do to stop them from tossing transports (packed with seismic charges?) into every node they can find.

As I see it, all the Shivans can really do is suicidally camp on a star with a star-killing Sathanas fleet and then simply hit the Big Red Button if the Empire busts in. The starkiller fleet was 80+, with about half jumping out to avoid the explosion. Assuming the Shivans have many more Sathanas', they might be able to hold systems hostage as a way of avoiding direct conflict with the Imperial fleet. It really depends on how fast they can get a star prepared for destruction.

In direct conflict, a HTL can probably destroy a Sathanas in one shot from beyond visual range, so there's no contest. The best the Shivans can do is use their tactic of jumping in right next to a ship and then firing all beam cannons simultaneously. IIRC this is what happened in the first encounter with a Rakshasa cruiser, and with the first Ravana destroyer. Also I think the first encountered Sathanas jumped in right next to the Psamtik, blew her to hell in one volley then jumped out before it could be identified. We know that the Battle of Endor was point-blank range, and if the Shivans can learn to use tactical jumps consistently, they could probably disable/destroy unshielded ISDs, or weaker vessels (such as commerce raiding).

So really, the unstoppable Shivan juggernauts are reduced to nothing more than cruiser warfare until the Empire starts building jump drives and utterly owns their FTL. Game over.

[Stark]

The GD nebula is probably (from dates and size and such) a particular nebula about 4,000ly away. I *think* it's the Wolf nebula, and a Phaorah could indeed have witnessed it's formation (with the right equipment) as Bosch muses.

However, transit time is not necessarily linked to distance in a direct way. The Knossos portal seems to be very fast, but since 4,000ly is 'further than any human had ever travelled' (or something) the other nodes are probably slower, perhaps much slower.

[Ace Pace]

Node jump times are not consistent. Witness the Knosses flights are not given time, but we can semi extrapolate that it's not very fast from the FS1 final mission, which gave you what, 15 minutes to destroy the Lucifer as it flies on towards Earth?

[Kane Starkiller]

15 minutes travel time from Delta Serpentis is not that slow. It is over 7 million c.

[Ace Pace]

As we've proven, Node maps and reality don't always mesh, and while I don't currently have acess to a VP unpacker, I distinctly recall Delta Serpentis being rather near to Earth.

[Kane Starkiller]

The Delta Seprentis is shown to be pretty close to Earth, well relative to other star systems in the map. However I think that the explanation for that is that real positions of these stars are completely irrelevant to GTVA mission planers and military officers. "Closenes" of two starsystems will be determined by number of jumps and they will be the determining factor in planning any military actions.
This is why they probably have their computer draw the map so the "connecting lines" between starsystems are shown clearly even if it means rearranging their positions.

[Stark]

So you're assuming these stars are the real stars, even though THEY'RE DIFFERENT COLOURS and AREN'T THE RIGHT NUMBER in binary/trinary systems? I'm pretty sure somewhere in the tech room they even *say* that they just used whatever names they wanted, because it's not like you could go anywhere else.

[Kane Starkiller]

So you're assuming these stars are the real stars, even though THEY'RE DIFFERENT COLOURS and AREN'T THE RIGHT NUMBER in binary/trinary systems?

We also saw green stars ingame. Obviously their appearance ingame cannot be used at face value. As for inaccurate portrayal of binary systems which ones are you talking about? I don't remember any binary systems except for the one in the mission "Into the Lion's den".

I'm pretty sure somewhere in the tech room they even *say* that they just used whatever names they wanted, because it's not like you could go anywhere else.

I certainly never saw anything like that in the tech room.

[Winston Blake]

However, transit time is not necessarily linked to distance in a direct way. The Knossos portal seems to be very fast, but since 4,000ly is 'further than any human had ever travelled' (or something) the other nodes are probably slower, perhaps much slower.

That was just supporting my point that the size of Shivan holdings could be so vast that a defensive scenario is impossible to describe (i.e. SW invades where?), and that we're limited to discussing the number of ships seen so far even though the true total could be mind-boggling. Oh-so-mysterious factions can be so annoying to quantify.

[Stark]

Wait, so we can't use ingame information... except the name? Riiiiiight. And look up the names of FS2 systems: they're not all single-star systems 'in real life', but as you note they aren't shown properly (ie Capella is a binary star, and a close one too). Hence they're probably not the 'real life' stars of the same name. Frankly I think it's hilarious you're prepared to throw out the actual appearance of the stars but not the names. Why did you decide on this hierarchy?

Then again, you also throw out the ingame nodemap - the arrangement of stars doesn't match the actual stars (and they could have just rearranged them, since only the links matter) and even the relative distances are wrong. Everything is wrong BUT the name, right? Even though they're in the wrong place and look wrong? Even though the 4,000ly nebula is a huge distance away? Even though the 'real' Epsilon Pegasi is *20 times* further from Sol than Capella, to pick a random example?

All this just to get higher FTL speeds for the cripplingly inflexible FS2 jumpdrives.