If Smaug had the Ring

[Johonebesus]

I just thought of something. What if Smaug had been a little less patient with Bilbo and just blasted the general area roasting poor Mr. Baggins? Smaug would then have come into possession of the Ring. Would he have recognized what it was? Would he be capable of wielding it? Would he have had the ambition or desire to wield it? How would it affect him? How would this affect Sauron's plans? Would he have learned that the Ring survived? I have my own ideas, and I thought some of you might like to discuss it, but probably not.

[Sea Skimmer]

If might not know what it was and simply throw it in his pile. But I suspect he would eventually fall under its power and bring it to Sauron.

[Stormbringer]

I just thought of something. What if Smaug had been a little less patient with Bilbo and just blasted the general area roasting poor Mr. Baggins? Smaug would then have come into possession of the Ring. Would he have recognized what it was? Would he be capable of wielding it?

This a going to take a while I see.

Smaug being a very old and knowlegdable dragon would certainly have recognised that it was a magical item of great power. No doubt he had some incling from just Bilbo's limited use. Whether he'd recognise it as The One Ring is another question and couldn't be settled from available information.

He would have certainly been able to weild it. It would have been to a lesser degree than say Saruman, Gandalf or Galadriel but far outstripping Bilbo or Frodo. Dragons have the kind of magical inclination which would allow them to weild the Ring effectively, Smaug even more given his age and strength of will.

Would he have had the ambition or desire to wield it? How would it affect him?

Being a dragon he would naturally have the ambition and desire to. Even good and decent creatures are corrupted by it. A creature born to evil like a dragon most certainly would have the desire. It would most likely be used to turn the whole of the world into a plunder pile though.

He's evil to begin with. Nothing much would change.

How would this affect Sauron's plans? Would he have learned that the Ring survived? I have my own ideas, and I thought some of you might like to discuss it, but probably not.

It would ruin Sauron's plan. As the Necromancer he had intended to use Smaug (through a bargain Gandalf says he struck) to ravage the North while his own armies marched from Dol Guldur. Basically he would have used Smaug as a shock force against Lothlorien and as cover for his own armies. When Smaug died that's why Sauron abondoned the Necromancer cover and fled to Mordor.

Sauron already knew the Ring survived. He was already searching for his Ring. It's made clear the Sauron knew from day one that Isiuldur never destroyed the Ring. It was just a matter of finding it and reclaiming it.

[Stormbringer]

If might not know what it was and simply throw it in his pile. But I suspect he would eventually fall under its power and bring it to Sauron.

No. The old Dragon like Smaug considered themselves equal to the likes of Sauron, the same as the Balrogs did. Smaug never would have returned the Ring willingly.

[Johonebesus]

Being a dragon he would naturally have the ambition and desire to. Even good and decent creatures are corrupted by it. A creature born to evil like a dragon most certainly would have the desire. It would most likely be used to turn the whole of the world into a plunder pile though.

He's evil to begin with. Nothing much would change.

My question was not whether it would corrupt him, but in what way. Smaug's chief ambition was to sit on his treasure. He didn't seem to have any ambition to rule over people. He also didn't deem to be very concerned with increasing his wealth. He could have taxed the people of Laketown, but he didn't. I wonder if the Ring would have influenced him to do anything other than guard his treasure, eventually driving him to paranoia and maybe even madness. If he did not have the ambition to command subjects or rule lands or even demand tribute, would he really wield the Ring, use it to some end, or merely sit on it as his chief treasure like Gollum, especially if he did not know what it was or how it could be used.

Sauron already knew the Ring survived. He was already searching for his Ring. It's made clear the Sauron knew from day one that Isildur never destroyed the Ring. It was just a matter of finding it and reclaiming it.

I seem to remember Gandalf stating that Sauron believed Isildur and Elrond destroyed the Ring, and that he only learned otherwise when Gollum was captured in Mordor. If that is true, then Gollum, upon hearing that Mr. Baggins never came back from the mountain, would surely have gone there himself in search of the Ring instead of wandering around looking for the Shire, so he would most likely have ended up in Smaug's belly rather than Mordor to tell Sauron about the Ring, so Sauron would have been clueless. Would he have been slower to attack Gondor if he did not think the Ring was still waiting to be reclaimed, perhaps by an enemy? Under the Ring's influence, would Smaug have heeded Sauron's call? Would he have ever challenged Sauron?

[PrinceofLowLight]

Who says the ring would survive at all? Didn't Gandalf say that dragonfire would destroy the ring?

And assuming it survived, it would be glowing and displaying the little ingram. Then it all depends on whether he can read the Black Speech, and I think he probably would. Other than that I can't say. He'd probably gain at least a bit of an urge to conquer.

[Balrog]

Who says the ring would survive at all? Didn't Gandalf say that dragonfire would destroy the ring?

And assuming it survived, it would be glowing and displaying the little ingram. Then it all depends on whether he can read the Black Speech, and I think he probably would. Other than that I can't say. He'd probably gain at least a bit of an urge to conquer.

He said maybe some of the rings could be consumed by dragon fire, but not even the mightiest dragons of the past could not destroy it.

[NecronLord]

More than likely he would crisp Sauron without effort, didn't Morgoth intend dragons to be able to fight Valar (or at least cause them trougble)?

[Slartibartfast]

He said maybe some of the rings could be consumed by dragon fire, but not even the mightiest dragons of the past could not destroy it.

That's a double negative. You're saying that the dragons were unable to not destroy it. So they always destroyed it, because they couldn't help themselves

[Smiling Bandit]

How would this affect Sauron's plans? Would he have learned that the Ring survived? I have my own ideas, and I thought some of you might like to discuss it, but probably not.

1) Smaug would soo find himself wanting to rule over mere mortals - let them bring him his dinner and serve a truly great creature like himself. Puny humans.

2) Smaug is really strong. He's really strong in will, too. He is one of the "Greats" of Middle Earth. He would be able to use the Ring to its full potential.

3) Tolkein wrote in one of his letters that one of the mightier powers of Middle Earth, with the Ring in hand, would be just about even with Sauron. In a fight, they'd be going toe-to-toe, and the outcome was a 50/50 shot either way, so we don't know who'd win.

[Stormbringer]

More than likely he would crisp Sauron without effort, didn't Morgoth intend dragons to be able to fight Valar (or at least cause them trougble)?

Yes, he did. That doesn't mean they worked. The best the entire Host of Angband which included massed ranks of dragons was to force a faltering of the Host of the West. The dragons got royally bitchslapped for their trouble.

[Stormbringer]

1) Smaug would soo find himself wanting to rule over mere mortals - let them bring him his dinner and serve a truly great creature like himself. Puny humans.

That might come to pass. But more likely he would have simply used it to simply horde more treasure as that is the cheif ambition of dragons. They aren't interested in power so much as wealth and hording it.

2) Smaug is really strong. He's really strong in will, too. He is one of the "Greats" of Middle Earth. He would be able to use the Ring to its full potential.

He was a great power. But mostly because he was one of the last dragons and the last of the Uruloki (fire drakes). He would have used the Ring, and been powerful indeed. But he would not and could not have done as well as Gandalf or Galadriel. Magic/knowledge isn't the forte of dragons.

3) Tolkein wrote in one of his letters that one of the mightier powers of Middle Earth, with the Ring in hand, would be just about even with Sauron. In a fight, they'd be going toe-to-toe, and the outcome was a 50/50 shot either way, so we don't know who'd win.

But Smaug is not one of the great powers specifically.

[Stormbringer]

My question was not whether it would corrupt him, but in what way. Smaug's chief ambition was to sit on his treasure.

That pretty much sums it up. Dragons have no other real ambition and the Ring "tailors" it's inticements to the bearer. Look at the visions of Galadriel, Gandalf, Frodo, and Sam. All very personal.

Most likely it would have increased Smaug's desire for treasure. It would have overcome his reluctance and inheirent conservative nature to cause him to plunder more and more.

I seem to remember Gandalf stating that Sauron believed Isildur and Elrond destroyed the Ring, and that he only learned otherwise when Gollum was captured in Mordor

No, that's not the case. Sauron was so linked to the Ring that he would know beyond a shadow of a doubt if it was destroyed. He had been searching for it ever since he had the power to return.

Not to mention that whole bound to it's fate thing.

Sauron simply didn't know where the Ring was until he grabbed Gollum. Before that he had been searching the area where Isiuldur fell. Gollum merely pointed him to the Shire.

[Johonebesus]

No, that's not the case. Sauron was so linked to the Ring that he would know beyond a shadow of a doubt if it was destroyed. He had been searching for it ever since he had the power to return.

Not to mention that whole bound to it's fate thing.

Sauron simply didn't know where the Ring was until he grabbed Gollum. Before that he had been searching the area where Isiuldur fell. Gollum merely pointed him to the Shire.

A quick skim of the second chapter turned up this on p. 61: "'And this is the dreadful chance, Frodo. He [Sauron] believed that the One had perished; that the elves had destroyed it, as should have been done. But he knows now that is has not perished, that it has been found.'" I will need to reread "The Council of Elrond" to be sure that Gandalf was not contradicted, but that is a pretty straightforward statement. Maybe Elrond or someone else corrected Gandalf and I just don't remember, that is well possible, but otherwise there is no reason to believe that he is wrong.

[Stormbringer]

A quick skim of the second chapter turned up this on p. 61: "'And this is the dreadful chance, Frodo. He [Sauron] believed that the One had perished; that the elves had destroyed it, as should have been done. But he knows now that is has not perished, that it has been found.'" I will need to reread "The Council of Elrond" to be sure that Gandalf was not contradicted, but that is a pretty straightforward statement. Maybe Elrond or someone else corrected Gandalf and I just don't remember, that is well possible, but otherwise there is no reason to believe that he is wrong.

There's plenty of evidence that Gandalf's statement is in error.

Gandalf is indeed corrected, not by other characters, but by events. The spectacular results of the Ring's destruction show Sauron would indeed have known. Do you really think all that would have happened to him unoticed?

Not to mention Sauron had agents searching for the Ring as soon as he had re-emerged. That alone argues that he knew it survived.

And of course that the foundations of Barad Dur (which were built with the Ring) endured everything the Numenorians threw at it.

And that the other Rings hadn't faded. Particularly the Nine.

And that he was still linked to it.

There's a lot of evidence that says Sauron knew that the Ring survived. Gandalf's statement is at best a guess, more than likely a confidence booster that he knew was untrue. After all, Gandalf knew Sauron was looking for the Ring while the Dark Lord was operating as the Necromancer.

[NecronLord]

He was a great power. But mostly because he was one of the last dragons and the last of the Uruloki (fire drakes). He would have used the Ring, and been powerful indeed. But he would not and could not have done as well as Gandalf or Galadriel. Magic/knowledge isn't the forte of dragons.

I don't know about that. Galurung was pretty damm good at it.

[Johonebesus]

There's plenty of evidence that Gandalf's statement is in error.

Gandalf is indeed corrected, not by other characters, but by events. The spectacular results of the Ring's destruction show Sauron would indeed have known. Do you really think all that would have happened to him unoticed?

But we know what would have happened because we know what did happen at the end. We cannot be certain that Sauron knew that the destruction of the ring would weaken him so thoroughly. He was already weakened just by being separated from it. It does seem logical that he would know whether the ring was destroyed or not, but it is plausible that he did not fully realize just how badly he would suffer when the Ring perished.

Not to mention Sauron had agents searching for the Ring as soon as he had re-emerged. That alone argues that he knew it survived.

No, it is made pretty clear that the Nazgûl did not go out until relatively recently. I do not know if it is stated positively that they did not go out as soon as he revealed himself, but neither is it stated that they did. The implication is that they only recently rode forth.

And of course that the foundations of Barad Dur (which were built with the Ring) endured everything the Numenorians threw at it.

Just because we know that Barad-Dûr would collapse and Sauron would fade into a weak spirit does not necessarily mean Sauron knew that. After all, Tolkien seemed to believe that evil made one kind of stupid.

And that the other Rings hadn't faded. Particularly the Nine.

No-one was absolutely certain that the Three would fade, so it may not be certain that any of the rings would fail with the loss of the One. I seem to recall that Sauron did not personally make the other rings, but directed their making, then took them from the elves by force. That was why he destroyed Eregion.

And that he was still linked to it.

Point, maybe, but was he aware of it?

There's a lot of evidence that says Sauron knew that the Ring survived. Gandalf's statement is at best a guess, more than likely a confidence booster that he knew was untrue. After all, Gandalf knew Sauron was looking for the Ring while the Dark Lord was operating as the Necromancer.

Where does Tolkien state that Gandalf knew the Necromancer was searching for the ring? It doesn't seem much like Gandalf to lie. Why not tell Frodo that he is not in real danger as long as he gets the Ring to Rivendell soon? Why does he tell Frodo so many terrible things and hint at even worse things and then tell a nice lie as a confidence booster? It seems to me that Gandalf believed what he said. Now, he might be mistaken, and your points have some weight, but the problem is it is all speculation and assumption. You assume Sauron fully understood what would happen when the Ring was destroyed. That is logical, but not certain. In the face of a positive statement, I think that is not quite enough. My attitude is that what is in print outweighs speculation, no matter how well reasoned and logical. I will need to read more and go over the Tale of Years to be sure, but right now I am not willing to assume that Gandalf's printed statement is wrong.

[CJvR]

I would think Sauron was slightly distracted at the end of the second age, getting killed again and having Mordor smashed by the last alliance. He might have considered himself fortunate to have survived at all even with the ring lost/destroyed and not questioned his good fortune. Once he have an opinion on something Sauron don't change it easily.

[Tsyroc]

Smaug with the ring would be a very cool alternative story to what was in the Hobbit and the LotR.

I'd also be interested to see what the ring would do to Smaug. Look what it did to Gollum and he was essentially a Hobitt. Certainly Smaug would be more powerful, live longer etc... but would it eventually mutate him?

Since dragonfire wouldn't destroy the One Ring just imagine if Smaug figured out he had the ring after he swallowed Bilbo. So, how would you get Smaug to fly himself into the lava at Mt. Doom? It's either that or try to kill Smaug (with the ring) and then cut it out of him before taking it to Mt. Doom.

I think Middle Earth would eventually be in much worse shape with Smaug getting the One Ring that it would be if Sauron got it. The only exception would be if the ring made Smaug want to stay in his mountain even more, guarding the ring, guarding the treasure and the ring. If it made him seek out more treasure I just picture Smaug (with the ring) scorching much of Middle Earth if he wants to.

[Sea Skimmer]

I'd also be interested to see what the ring would do to Smaug. Look what it did to Gollum and he was essentially a Hobitt. Certainly Smaug would be more powerful, live longer etc... but would it eventually mutate him?

I always figured Gollum's appearance was a side effect of his very long life, not a direct result of the rings power.

[Smiling Bandit]

I will need to reread "The Council of Elrond" to be sure that Gandalf was not contradicted, but that is a pretty straightforward statement. Maybe Elrond or someone else corrected Gandalf and I just don't remember, that is well possible, but otherwise there is no reason to believe that he is wrong.

Sauron didn't realize the Ring was still around. It was only the intervention of Golllum that let Sauron know he might have the Ring back.

He was a great power. But mostly because he was one of the last dragons and the last of the Uruloki (fire drakes). He would have used the Ring, and been powerful indeed. But he would not and could not have done as well as Gandalf or Galadriel. Magic/knowledge isn't the forte of dragons.

Not true, Dragons don't usually use spells or wards, because they are naturally endowed with powers to make such things pale by comparison, but they can indeed know them. Moreover, no magical skill or knowledge is needed to use the Ring. Tolkein said it worked by the user's will - its primary role is to control other beings. You can make them afraid or master their wills, like Sauron did with the Nine. This is ultimately what saved Bilbo and Frodo and Sam and even GOllum to some extent - they had no desire to force other people to bow before their will. However, towards the end, you'll note Frodo started acting a little... suspicious, shall we say? The Ring IS Sauron, and it contains a portion of his own evil as well as his power. He wanted EVERYTHING under his control.

In the beginning, Smaug would have found his appetite for treasure increasing, and that would be that. Given enough time, he would surely begin to use the Ring to force people to bow before him and bring him wealth. He might never become a Dark Lord like Sauron - but I wouldn't bet against it. Even Galadriel was very near that road, and she rejected the Ring entirely.

Regardless of what he wants, sooner or later he would come into conflict with Sauron. Sauron desires th Ring as well - alkthough his personal power revied over the years, with the RIng he would be mightier than ever before, and he would never allow Smaug to simply keep it. With the Ring in hand, Smaug would fight a mighty struggle -a terrible battle between the two greatest powers of Middle Earth.

I always figured Gollum's appearance was a side effect of his very long life, not a direct result of the rings power.

True; since Dragons seem to have extremely long lives, if not immortal, this is not really an issue. At worst, he would become a sort of wraith-dragon, which really would be bad - then NO ordinary weapon could hurt him. Think Nazgul Dragon on Steroids.

[Stormbringer]

He was a great power. But mostly because he was one of the last dragons and the last of the Uruloki (fire drakes). He would have used the Ring, and been powerful indeed. But he would not and could not have done as well as Gandalf or Galadriel. Magic/knowledge isn't the forte of dragons.

I don't know about that. Galurung was pretty damm good at it.

How so? The hypnotic gaze would be. But other than that there isn't much that I recall. And Smaug demonstrates only the hypnotic gaze.

[Sea Skimmer]

As I recall Sauron thought the ring had been washed into the sea, placing it effective beyond his reach. Saruman said the same thing to Gandalf, though didn't seem to believe that himself.

[Stormbringer]

But we know what would have happened because we know what did happen at the end. We cannot be certain that Sauron knew that the destruction of the ring would weaken him so thoroughly. He was already weakened just by being separated from it. It does seem logical that he would know whether the ring was destroyed or not, but it is plausible that he did not fully realize just how badly he would suffer when the Ring perished.

It's entirely possible he didn't know how bad it would be. But there's no question he knew that the Ring being destroyed would pretty much ruin him forever. As is repeatedly pounded into our heads, he's linked to it and he did that deliberately. That link alone would tell him.

No, it is made pretty clear that the Nazgûl did not go out until relatively recently. I do not know if it is stated positively that they did not go out as soon as he revealed himself, but neither is it stated that they did. The implication is that they only recently rode forth.

It doesn't say that he used the Nazgul. He could have used any number of lesser minions. It's never said who, but it's mentioned that he had agents searching the Gladden Fields area for a long time.

Just because we know that Barad-Dûr would collapse and Sauron would fade into a weak spirit does not necessarily mean Sauron knew that. After all, Tolkien seemed to believe that evil made one kind of stupid.

Given that Sauron built it that way, I'd say he's aware of the consequences. He's familiar with how the Rings work, they were his creation.

No-one was absolutely certain that the Three would fade, so it may not be certain that any of the rings would fail with the loss of the One. I seem to recall that Sauron did not personally make the other rings, but directed their making, then took them from the elves by force. That was why he destroyed Eregion.

The only uncertainty came from the fact it hadn't happened. It's pretty clear those that held the contrary opinion did so mostly out of wishful thinking. Willful delusion over the unpalatable truth. Rather like creationists actually.

Sauron had a hand in all the Rings save The Three. All the others he had a hand in while he was decieving the Elves into thinking him a friend. And he was also the one that took the craft to the point it was. Celebrimor had Sauron's aid from nearly the beginning after all. Sauron is Lord of the Rings.

Point, maybe, but was he aware of it?

Given he takes advantage of it to try and harm/ensnare Frodo on at least two ocassions I'd say yes.

Where does Tolkien state that Gandalf knew the Necromancer was searching for the ring? It doesn't seem much like Gandalf to lie. Why not tell Frodo that he is not in real danger as long as he gets the Ring to Rivendell soon?

Unfinished Tales and the Appendices (I believe). It's not stated flat out when and what Gandalf knew but it's made pretty darn clear that Gandalf knew. And he certainly was aware of Sauron's search once Sauron returned to Mordor.

And impartial sources tell us that Sauron was most certainly searching. That alone argues that he knew the Ring had not been destroyed.

Oh, and Gandalf will flat out lie for a good cause (Beorn, remember?) and he's also been know to hide and/or not bring up things. All in all, it's clear that either way Gandalf's statement is in error.

Why does he tell Frodo so many terrible things and hint at even worse things and then tell a nice lie as a confidence booster? It seems to me that Gandalf believed what he said.

I agree that it's possible. But he does call it a "dreadful chance" so it doesn't sound like he's certain. Guessing or stretching the truth for Frodo's benefit.

Now, he might be mistaken, and your points have some weight, but the problem is it is all speculation and assumption. You assume Sauron fully understood what would happen when the Ring was destroyed.

No, it's a logical extension of what we know as readers as opposed to what the characters think with their imperfect knowledge.

Given that he made the Ring. And really none of this was so hard to forsee once you're familiar with the Ring and how Sauron used it. Remember, Gandalf expected a lot of this with regards to all things built upon the power of the Ring. Why would they think Sauron and Mordor exempt?

That is logical, but not certain. In the face of a positive statement, I think that is not quite enough. My attitude is that what is in print outweighs speculation, no matter how well reasoned and logical. I will need to read more and go over the Tale of Years to be sure, but right now I am not willing to assume that Gandalf's printed statement is wrong.

But the fact is the information comes from canon. And remember, Gandalf is a character and his knowledge is limited. Gandalf has had his knowledge limited by centuries (with medivael tech) and second or more hand information.

We as reader however are near omniscent. That changes a whole lot of things.