Yoda vs The Hulk

[LordShaithis]

Besides, didn't Hulk lose to Wolverine? I like Wolvy, but he's not in the Superman league at ALL.

[Superman]

In all fairness, I say Hulk should have kicked Wolverine's ass from here to New Zealand. That was some fanboy writing or something.

But Prawn is right, short of pulling kryptonite out of his ass, there is nothing at all Wolvie could do against Superman.

[Crossover_Maniac]

You can whine all you want, but I saw that Marvel/DC crossover, and the Hulk got knocked the fuck out.

The following isn't a comment on the Supes vs. Hulk fight: the Marvel/DC crossover is not a good source for any vs. debate. The winners of each match was decided by polls, IOW, character popularity. Otherwise, Lobo would have ripped the skin off of Wolverine's adamantium bones and Wonder Woman would have KO'ed Storm in the first microsecond of the match. Instead, the more well-known and more popular Storm and Wolverine won the match.

[ShinjiGohan]

What was the point of Superman being in this debate? Sure I brought him up to show that he could survive really hot tempertures, and thus wouldn't be sliced with ease due to a lightsaber.

Then it goes into who'd win in a fight? Of course Superman should win. He has too many advantages. From flight, speed, a good variety of powers, 10.000 years of battle experience etc... And having a strength that rival the Hulks.

If the point of that was to say that because the Hulk should lose to superman then he must lose to Yoda. (KK remember its the spiderman fight that had the average jedi not this one ^.^). Then that point doesn't hold much basis as Superman should be every big strong guy out there.

A better example would be Wolverine going even with the Hulk on so many occassions. However then also realize that the writers are fans themselfs, and also want to make the comic successful, so they make the comic book have a story or fight that shouldn't exist (or exist in the manner that they represent it). And since Wolverine still has one of the largest fan followings, they gear comics with him in it to give him the edge. Look at the X-men movies. Were those movies really about the X-men? Or was it really a Wolverine movie that just incidently had the X-men in it. Or look at the Marvel vs DC crossover that was voted upon by polls, that had the comic in normal grossery stories. and look at the result of the Wolverine vs Lobo fight. Sure Wolverin could last a while, but he should lose. But the fans voted that wolverine would win. So they had to make their fight under the bar, so we couldn't see what actually happened just so Wolverine would somehow unrealisitic win.

Almost all fights between the Hulk and Wolverine had that.

And Superman does have some kind of TK field when he flies or carries objects (the explaination as to why when he holds up a ship that the ship doesn't crack in half due to it being held by one (in perspective) small being, and should logically fall through superman).

[Superman]

The following isn't a comment on the Supes vs. Hulk fight: the Marvel/DC crossover is not a good source for any vs. debate. The winners of each match was decided by polls, IOW, character popularity. Otherwise, Lobo would have ripped the skin off of Wolverine's adamantium bones and Wonder Woman would have KO'ed Storm in the first microsecond of the match. Instead, the more well-known and more popular Storm and Wolverine won the match.

Agreed.

[Jonathanos]

1) Just like what he said in the original crossover, when Superman was ready for Hulk, Hulk couldn't do shit against him. He pounded on an invulnerable immovable body.

2) Second crossover, Hulk loses.

3) Third crossover, Hulk managed to throw Supes into space ONCE. When Superman was ready, he clearly had the advantage. He was too fast for the missiles Hulk threw at him, and Supes even rendered them inert in the process. We never saw the conclusion because they teamed up, but I still say Superman had the advantage there.

The silver age Superman has indeed moved planets, but I am not aware of him doing this recently. I believe Ghost Rider gave the example before...

1.) I said Superman seemed in control at the end. In control is not winning, however. He even admitted that it wasn't easy and that was Pre-Crisis Superman.

2.) I said the Hulk lost. I only pointed out that the Hulk was handicapped for that fight thus making it far from the definitive take on who is stronger.

3.) Did I say the Hulk tossed Superman into outer space more than once? Nope. Superman was "clearly" in control? Funny, who was that who was holding Superman with one hand and drawing back for a punch just before they landed? We don't even see most of the fight but what we do see is Superman saying he's letting loose... and the Hulk getting back up unharmed. Even fight. The most effect Superman had was with that sudden attack at the start of the fight--sucker punching the Hulk before he knew what was going on.

Superman's flight power aids him in moving things. He's said as much himself.

You can whine all you want, but I saw that Marvel/DC crossover, and the Hulk got knocked the fuck out.

Debate aside, looking at that list of comic references... That's fucking stupid. Planet-moving strength from a human body mutated by radiation? It's the Goku effect: We need more material! Well, just make the hero stronger!

Hellooo. I said the Hulk lost the Marvel/DC fight.

It's not the "Goku" effect. The Hulk has had the power to increase his strength with rage since almost the very beginning. STAN LEE wrote the Hulk at that level.

So what's your take on Superman with a sundip moving Warworld?

[Darth Wong]

All comic-book crossovers are guided by the principle of "no humiliation", which means that neither side can be curb-stomped by the other.

That's why you can pretty much disprove any Marvel-verse wanking by looking for a Punisher crossover issue, or (conversely) justify any amount of wanking by looking for issues where your favourite character dices with cosmic beings and deities. This is the biggest single problem with all comic-book related arguments; there is simply no consistency.

[Darth_Shinji]

Most comic boards I've seen have already made rules to deal with it. Company crossovers are immedataly discounted and incompany fights are also disconted when one oppenent is totally out of his class (As with most of the punisher crossovers). Nothing a little logic couldn't handle.

[Darth Wong]

Most comic boards I've seen have already made rules to deal with it. Company crossovers are immedataly discounted and incompany fights are also disconted when one oppenent is totally out of his class (As with most of the punisher crossovers). Nothing a little logic couldn't handle.

Exactly what is the "logic" behind that rule? If anything, you are merely saying that you agree to throw logic to the winds, and admit that the Marvel universe itself is intrinsically inconsistent and therefore not subject to rational analysis.

[Iceberg]

I think this will be the rough sequence of events:

"HULK SMASH!!!"
"Me you do not wish to harm."
"I not wish to harm you."
"Calm you will be."
*Hulk transforms back to puny Banner*
"To have a beer, we will now go."
"Let's go have a beer."

End of fight.

[NeoGoomba]

Most comic boards I've seen have already made rules to deal with it. Company crossovers are immedataly discounted and incompany fights are also disconted when one oppenent is totally out of his class (As with most of the punisher crossovers). Nothing a little logic couldn't handle.

Thats a garbage excuse. To be fair. Punisher crossovers are probably the best (at least those written by Garth Ennis) in that they show how common sense and ingenuity can beat super-powers.

[Sea Skimmer]

Thats a garbage excuse. To be fair. Punisher crossovers are probably the best (at least those written by Garth Ennis) in that they show how common sense and ingenuity can beat super-powers.

Not to mention showing how stupid many superheroes are, a trait which the Punisher exploited more then once. He killed a couple of them with shots in the back after they had beat him as I recall.

[Darth_Shinji]

Most comic boards I've seen have already made rules to deal with it. Company crossovers are immedataly discounted and incompany fights are also disconted when one oppenent is totally out of his class (As with most of the punisher crossovers). Nothing a little logic couldn't handle.

Exactly what is the "logic" behind that rule? If anything, you are merely saying that you agree to throw logic to the winds, and admit that the Marvel universe itself is intrinsically inconsistent and therefore not subject to rational analysis.

More along the lines that there are inconsistent moments becuase the story is first and phyics secound.... Lets say a superhero picks up a tank, this tank is stated to be an Abrams, but the actaul size of the tank is quite smaller....In comics this is quite common.

As far as not subject to rational analysis that is true for most if not all of sci-fi. Its just a matter of how much. Degrees should not matter when all have the same qualitly. In sci-fi its going to be a matter of most consistent instead of totatily consistent.


And NeoGoomba as I've said it depends on the battle.... I doubt that Punisher is the smartest of the bunch all the time and has had the same happen to him. Like when spiderman killed the marvel universe in a what-if and the Hulk as well.

[Darth Wong]

As far as not subject to rational analysis that is true for most if not all of sci-fi. Its just a matter of how much. Degrees should not matter when all have the same qualitly. In sci-fi its going to be a matter of most consistent instead of totatily consistent.

When you decide to throw out whole categories of evidence because they annoy you, that is more than a mere matter of degrees.

And NeoGoomba as I've said it depends on the battle.... I doubt that Punisher is the smartest of the bunch all the time and has had the same happen to him. Like when spiderman killed the marvel universe in a what-if and the Hulk as well.

The point remains that the killing methods described in those crossovers would work; the outrageous consecutive successes merely require a ridiculous degree of luck, that's all. Frankly, that can be said for all superheroes. How long would Daredevil realistically live? Captain America? Punisher? Any of the X-Men who aren't bulletproof or speed-healers?

[Darth_Shinji]

As far as not subject to rational analysis that is true for most if not all of sci-fi. Its just a matter of how much. Degrees should not matter when all have the same qualitly. In sci-fi its going to be a matter of most consistent instead of totatily consistent.

When you decide to throw out whole categories of evidence because they annoy you, that is more than a mere matter of degrees.

Nope, not my intention at all. Its the way out in left feild examples that are totaly beyound/below the abilities of certain characters....

The point remains that the killing methods described in those crossovers would work; the outrageous consecutive successes merely require a ridiculous degree of luck, that's all. Frankly, that can be said for all superheroes. How long would Daredevil realistically live? Captain America? Punisher? Any of the X-Men who aren't bulletproof or speed-healers?

Some of them are, others are impossible. While I do not know of much dealing with punisher how about "black-hole surviving" silver surfer being ko-ed with a brick? Or "concussion grenade taking to the face" spiderman being ko'ed by aunt may and her vase?

[Darth Wong]

Nope, not my intention at all. Its the way out in left feild examples that are totaly beyound/below the abilities of certain characters....

As far as I can tell, the only outrageous things about those examples are the luck involved, which is really nothing more than character shielding.

Some of them are, others are impossible. While I do not know of much dealing with punisher how about "black-hole surviving" silver surfer being ko-ed with a brick?

Surfer got injured by The Thing giving him a shoulder-block once, and that was in his introduction story in Fantastic Four. Are you seriously going to throw out someone's own introduction story? His power level seems to vary depending on how much of the Power Cosmic he's absorbed. Being in space seems to energize him too.

Or "concussion grenade taking to the face" spiderman being ko'ed by aunt may and her vase?

Actually, concussion grenades aren't that dangerous to humans, and he could have rolled with that one. That's why they use frag grenades for antipersonnel purposes. If a concussion grenade actually went off in contact with his face that would be quite impressive, but I doubt we actually saw that. A solid hit to the head, however, should knock him out if he doesn't see it coming in time. His brain is still soft tissue.

[KK]

Are you seriously going to throw out someone's own introduction story?

Actually that's usually the first thing to go in comics. Many characters have an initial appearance that doesn't match up to the rest of their history, because they were not well-defined when the book was written.

In Wolverine's first appearance, he had adamantium claws that were only as hard as diamond, for instence.

[KK]

Exactly what is the "logic" behind that rule? If anything, you are merely saying that you agree to throw logic to the winds, and admit that the Marvel universe itself is intrinsically inconsistent and therefore not subject to rational analysis.

Define rational.

If by rational, you mean "tricking ourselves into believing the stuff is real" then you're right. We really should avoid doing that.

[ShinjiGohan]

I've began to wonder. Exactly which comic book/anime heros/villians do you think that Yoda could not beat? (To those that say Yoda could beat the Hulk with ease, or Vader and the Emperior would own Goku and Gohan from the last arc of DBZ).

Because if people who can destroy a solar system with one arm isn't enough coupled with going at near lightspeeds if not well beyond it, with durability to take that blast without much damage, and strength to survive in over 300G's when you were much weaker (compared to the Buu arc),along with precog in the form of having eyes in the back of their heads, TK to lift 3 pryimades above the clouds and at the same time crack the earth to a point where it wants to split in two and then use TK to fix the earth, and TP to not only mind control, but intercept a communication TP between gods where on is in the living realm and the other is in the realm of the dead isn't enough. Then what is?

[keflex]

Thats a garbage excuse. To be fair. Punisher crossovers are probably the best (at least those written by Garth Ennis) in that they show how common sense and ingenuity can beat super-powers.

This is easily explainable by the fact that Ennis actually dislikes superheroes in general and actually prefers the gritty military type (this is apparent in his Preacher series as well as the Punisher story you mentioned. This thread mentions it specifically http://forums.comicbookresources.com/sh ... genumber=1).

Basically if you dislike a faction or certain group of people, you WILL paint them as foolish and incompetent.

[keflex]

Exactly what is the "logic" behind that rule? If anything, you are merely saying that you agree to throw logic to the winds, and admit that the Marvel universe itself is intrinsically inconsistent and therefore not subject to rational analysis.

The logic behind these rules are to reconcile the differences that come into play when multiple writers handle a single character or group of characters during their lifetime.

Since perhaps only 20% of a character/groups showing is inconsistent w/ their previously shown power levels or portrayals, it's easy to throw these out as Plot Induced Stupidity. Inconsistencies can be ignored if they aren't explained by the story and are directly contradictory to the character/group. Similar to a Yoda that would have trouble lifting a 5lb weight for no reason; it would simply be dismissed as bad writing and ignored because it directly contradicts the fact that Yoda HAS lifted more than 5lbs and DOESN'T explain why he can't lift such an insiginificant amount.

[Darth_Shinji]

As far as I can tell, the only outrageous things about those examples are the luck involved, which is really nothing more than character shielding.

Perhapes, I simply did not use a good enought example with ss. The fact still remains.

Surfer got injured by The Thing giving him a shoulder-block once, and that was in his introduction story in Fantastic Four. Are you seriously going to throw out someone's own introduction story? His power level seems to vary depending on how much of the Power Cosmic he's absorbed. Being in space seems to energize him too.

I'll give you this...however if a brick thrown by a normal person knocks him out cold, a blow from the thing should kill him. Even for a guy who's power level is changable that scene is discounted of writer stupidity. He is never depicted that weak again.

Or "concussion grenade taking to the face" spiderman being ko'ed by aunt may and her vase?

Actually, concussion grenades aren't that dangerous to humans, and he could have rolled with that one. That's why they use frag grenades for antipersonnel purposes. If a concussion grenade actually went off in contact with his face that would be quite impressive, but I doubt we actually saw that. A solid hit to the head, however, should knock him out if he doesn't see it coming in time. His brain is still soft tissue.[/quote] I personaly do not see who you could doubt that thinking we saw considering that we say the explosion and how close it was to his face. Another more descent example however is spiderman getting his head rebeatly slammed into a steel structure by Venom a class 10-20 guy. Or having tons of train cars dropped on top of him. If he could continue to remain consuiness and fight after that type of damage to his head. A vase is a joke.

[ShinjiGohan]

I'll give you this...however if a brick thrown by a normal person knocks him out cold, a blow from the thing should kill him. Even for a guy who's power level is changable that scene is discounted of writer stupidity. He is never depicted that weak again.

Well to Surfers defense, it was throw by a guy that can find the center of gravity of any object and hit it exactly there, 100% of the time. But even so, that can only go so far. But he wasn't exactly a normal human either.

[Darth_Shinji]

I'll give you this...however if a brick thrown by a normal person knocks him out cold, a blow from the thing should kill him. Even for a guy who's power level is changable that scene is discounted of writer stupidity. He is never depicted that weak again.

Well to Surfers defense, it was throw by a guy that can find the center of gravity of any object and hit it exactly there, 100% of the time. But even so, that can only go so far. But he wasn't exactly a normal human either.

Okay, I was wrong. thanks for at least keeping this honest.