A goofy thread that actually makes some sense.

[SAMAS]

Sorry, doesn't work.

Aside from the fact that no alternate dimensions other than the Afterlife are mentioned, there is the matter of enemies like Yakon and Androids #19 and #20.

Both Yakon and the Androids are energy eaters/drainers. Has there been a seperate dimension of energy, then it would be a simple matter for them to just draw limitless power from that.

So why do they have to take the energy from the Z-Warriors?

Or better yet, why do the Z-Warriors run out of energy? If they could just draw some from another dimension, they would continually do so until their bodies give out.

On top of that, a fighter's energy reserves have always been linked to their physical condition. Even if a fighter fires vary few energy blasts, they can get worn out and run out of energy just by throwing or taking physical attacks.

In addition, as their energy runs out, it takes lesser attacks to harm them. For example, the Cell Game. When Cell battled Goku, they were throwing punches that shattered nearby boulders when they missed, and tossing around at least one planet-killer blast, but when the Cell Jr. attacked Goku later, it was definitely hurting him with much weaker punches and kicks.

Sorry, but all the evidence points to internal. As for why Senzu beans and certain Nameks can heal others, it's simply the use of Magic. Unless you want to give us a long-winded and unecessarily complicated explanation for Baba and the Dragon Balls.

[Connor MacLeod]

And the bigger plasts typically have huge mass. But you'll notice that usually only the target catching the blast feels it. A somewhat common occurance is where the attacker easily fires a blast with one or two hands, but when the defender catches it, or is hit by it, they get pushed back several meters, or smashed into(or through) a mountain, even though they may come up unhurt.

Right. So they have recoil. But its the *magnitude*

Now go and check back on my second post on page three of this thread, where I note about fighters presumably using their Ki to ignore recoil, even from physical strikes.

I love this detailed explanation. Now, to build upon your simplistic logic, lets actually propse a REAL theory.

Yes, they can use ki to counter momentum. But typically for oyu, you refuse to think very hard on it (I don't suppose you could be bothered to think very hard about it, could you?) HOW do they use Ki to do it, and is their proof they can generate enough force to counter the recoil?

The first one is easy enough. We know they use their Ki to execute their flying abilities - take a look at when Gohan is teaching Videl and his explanation ("Take Flight Videl") Its quite evident from the episode that its their internal energy that is lifting them. (Gee, I guess that was a bit too hard for you to pull out of your vast DBZ knowledge, wasn't it?)

NOW, you HAVE a valid mechanism (even if I had to provide you with it). Prove that they can generate the requisite force to counter the recoil of a planet-shattering blast. (You do remember that you're expected to PROVE your point, don't you?)

[Connor MacLeod]

Sorry, doesn't work.

Aside from the fact that no alternate dimensions other than the Afterlife are mentioned, there is the matter of enemies like Yakon and Androids #19 and #20.

Both Yakon and the Androids are energy eaters/drainers. Has there been a seperate dimension of energy, then it would be a simple matter for them to just draw limitless power from that.

Not neccesarily. The act of drawing on another dimension could be a strain on their systems/body/mind, or it could take energy to open the portal.

Alternately, it may not be something they can do in the midst of battle, due to the length of time or concentration required.

So why do they have to take the energy from the Z-Warriors?

Perhaps its easier to draw from them than from another dimension? (You really need to start thinking more about possibilities.)

Or better yet, why do the Z-Warriors run out of energy? If they could just draw some from another dimension, they would continually do so until their bodies give out.

See above. You don't really think much before you post, do you?

You might point out that Goku HAS exhibited the ability to

On top of that, a fighter's energy reserves have always been linked to their physical condition. Even if a fighter fires vary few energy blasts, they can get worn out and run out of energy just by throwing or taking physical attacks.

This much is true. Repeated evidence had shown (Again, referring to Videl learning ot fly in "Take Flight Videl", statements by the Supreme Kai/Old Kai in later Buu saga episodes about Super Saiyans drawing energy from themselves, Goku forming the Spirit bomb, using scouters and other devices to detect the power levels of a person, etc.) that their energy is internal. And this only reinforces the problem of a DET- planet destroying event, both proving that they should be subject to recoil (since they are the source generating this "energy") and from other perspectives (can you justify the TREMENDOUS increase in mass a Z fighter would gain from holding 2e32 joules or more of energy? How about how they cool their bodies? What about radiating excess energy away? Why aren't they generating a large amount of heat? I could probably speculate on alot of problems with them having a massive amount of energy in their bodies.)

[Connor MacLeod]

Well that's just fine and dandy. So the Z-fighters obviously cannot be that powerful since that would violate the laws of physics. On a side note, SW cannot possbly have hyperdrive, as thet violates the laws of physics. Ranma also does not turn into a girl when splashed with cold water because that certainly shits all over physics. Don't get me started about precognition and ressurections . . .

I like how you *state* things are violations of physics without actually explaining why or citing sources (or even trying to explain them.) Some of them could be or probably are, but the point is that you claim they are without actually citing any sources. :Roll:

On top of that, you act as if violating physics actually JUSTIFIES treating it as a DET event. Just because certain aspects might justify violation of physics doesnt mean all do. (Do we assume TLs aren't DET events because hyperdrive violates physics?)

Ever heard of "suspension of disbeleif?" How about "black/white fallacy" or "Occam's Razor?"

How about things you obviously have no concept of?

IF we assume they MUST violate some laws of physics (which, admittedly and unfortunately, is probable in any event) that automatically negates any ability to treat it like a DET event. Since momentum is going to be a requisite part of a DET transfer and all. (Much how like a phaser appears to violate CoM - they can fling targets away without exerting any recoil on the target.

Simply put, if it VIOLATES physical laws, it cannot be analyzed as if it STILL OBEYS THEM. (This is why phasers are not calculated as having kinetic energy equal to the momentum they exhibit against bodies, or based on what they do to people or objects. You don't see anyone credible trying to establish energy calculations for Star Wars or Trek by the observed effects of Hyperdrive or Warp drive, do you?)

And since you bring up Occam's Razor, lets point something out:

1.) Planet destroying mechanism that does not require DET - known in at LEAST one occurance. We've seen it occur in the show. It exists as a known factor.

2.) unknown mechanism to allow them to ignore recoil - never indicated directly to my knowledge in the series or show. It is an UNKNOWN - a theory cooked up by several of you to pretned you can ignore momentum and still claim the energy level.

Now, Occam's Razor, if you are so familiar with it, should tell you which theory we must accept.

As for the Black/White fallacy, you think that there is some way you can "ignore" certain issues of physics yet still treat a planet-destroying event as if it obeys others? I don't exactly see why demanding that IF you treat it as a DET event you maintain consistency with physics is somehow "extreme" rather than "consistent."

[SAMAS]

And the bigger plasts typically have huge mass. But you'll notice that usually only the target catching the blast feels it. A somewhat common occurance is where the attacker easily fires a blast with one or two hands, but when the defender catches it, or is hit by it, they get pushed back several meters, or smashed into(or through) a mountain, even though they may come up unhurt.

Right. So they have recoil. But its the *magnitude*

What difference does that make? Aside from their raw strength, which can also be increased with Ki, they Z-Warriors have shown the ability to hold their bodies inert, unmoved by the forces around them.

Now go and check back on my second post on page three of this thread, where I note about fighters presumably using their Ki to ignore recoil, even from physical strikes.

I love this detailed explanation. Now, to build upon your simplistic logic, lets actually propse a REAL theory.

Yes, they can use ki to counter momentum. But typically for oyu, you refuse to think very hard on it (I don't suppose you could be bothered to think very hard about it, could you?) HOW do they use Ki to do it, and is their proof they can generate enough force to counter the recoil?

The first one is easy enough. We know they use their Ki to execute their flying abilities - take a look at when Gohan is teaching Videl and his explanation ("Take Flight Videl") Its quite evident from the episode that its their internal energy that is lifting them. (Gee, I guess that was a bit too hard for you to pull out of your vast DBZ knowledge, wasn't it?)

No, it just went without saying, and has been shown in the series itself. If they can use their Ki to move themselves, then it stands to reason that they could also use it to hold still, something else they do with regularity.

NOW, you HAVE a valid mechanism (even if I had to provide you with it). Prove that they can generate the requisite force to counter the recoil of a planet-shattering blast. (You do remember that you're expected to PROVE your point, don't you?)

How about:

The Episode where Vegita destroys Arlia

The Scenes where Freeza destroys Vegita,

And the Episode where Buu destroys Earth.

In each case, the character fires a blast capable of destroying a planet(and we know this because the blast actually destroys the planet, Massive explosion, debris, and everything), and is not moved by the act of launching/throwing the attack. Freeza even does it using only one finger.

Thsi shit isn't hard to understand. We've already been through it at least once.

[Connor MacLeod]

To simplify the issue yet again. IF you are going to treat planet destroying as if its a DET event, you are going to have to:

Obey physics and not only justify the mechanism by which recoil is countered, but also prove taht they CAN generate such force as to counter it (which is much harder than it sounds - which is why none of you have done so.) Since it is also an unknown, you have to also prove why it works better than treating a planet-destroying attack as a non-DET event (since we know such already exists in DBZ.)

No more of this "We can selectively ignore science when its inconvenient to us." bullshit. IF its a DET event, you obey physics entirely and must account for the problems. If you're going to violate physics, you cannot use the DET calc since its done as if the event were still obeying the laws of physics.

[SAMAS]

Well that's just fine and dandy. So the Z-fighters obviously cannot be that powerful since that would violate the laws of physics. On a side note, SW cannot possbly have hyperdrive, as thet violates the laws of physics. Ranma also does not turn into a girl when splashed with cold water because that certainly shits all over physics. Don't get me started about precognition and ressurections . . .

I like how you *state* things are violations of physics without actually explaining why or citing sources (or even trying to explain them.) Some of them could be or probably are, but the point is that you claim they are without actually citing any sources. :Roll:

Well, since it should be common knowledge of how or why SW tech violates the laws of physics(light speed barrier and all) should be rather common knowlege, let's go on to Ranma.

Ranma's female form has less mass than his male form. And no, the extra height does not all go into the breasts. If they had, she'd be a G-cup at worst.

And let's not get into Genma. Mousse, Tarou, and Ryoga/P-Chan.

On top of that, you act as if violating physics actually JUSTIFIES treating it as a DET event. Just because certain aspects might justify violation of physics doesnt mean all do. (Do we assume TLs aren't DET events because hyperdrive violates physics?)

No, the fact that the effects of the celestrial destruction have every well known effect of it, except those details about it that are not redily known.

Similar, in fact, to the destruction of the second Death Star over Endor. Or are you telling us that it didn't explode?

Ever heard of "suspension of disbeleif?" How about "black/white fallacy" or "Occam's Razor?"

How about things you obviously have no concept of?

IF we assume they MUST violate some laws of physics (which, admittedly and unfortunately, is probable in any event) that automatically negates any ability to treat it like a DET event. Since momentum is going to be a requisite part of a DET transfer and all. (Much how like a phaser appears to violate CoM - they can fling targets away without exerting any recoil on the target.

Simply put, if it VIOLATES physical laws, it cannot be analyzed as if it STILL OBEYS THEM. (This is why phasers are not calculated as having kinetic energy equal to the momentum they exhibit against bodies, or based on what they do to people or objects. You don't see anyone credible trying to establish energy calculations for Star Wars or Trek by the observed effects of Hyperdrive or Warp drive, do you?)

And since you bring up Occam's Razor, lets point something out:

1.) Planet destroying mechanism that does not require DET - known in at LEAST one occurance. We've seen it occur in the show. It exists as a known factor.

Problem is, it still used DET as the catalyst, and took far more longer than any other example of planetary destruction, which never went farther than 'BLAM! *BOOM*."

2.) unknown mechanism to allow them to ignore recoil - never indicated directly to my knowledge in the series or show. It is an UNKNOWN - a theory cooked up by several of you to pretned you can ignore momentum and still claim the energy level.

Funny you should mention that. There's a scene at least on movie 13 where Gohan stops a speeding car with one foot. Despite not bracing himself, he stops the car without being moved an inch. I'm not sure, but I think he pulls the same stunt, or something similar to it, in the TV series as well.

Oh, and let's not forget the scene when Nappa blew up half a city, leaving a crater several miles in diameter, and several meters deep, but neither he nor Vegita are moved from the plane on which they were standing.

And mind you, those are just a few of the ones that don't involve firing massive blasts of energy.

Now, Occam's Razor, if you are so familiar with it, should tell you which theory we must accept.

The one with the most evidence. That would be #2.

[SAMAS]

To simplify the issue yet again. IF you are going to treat planet destroying as if its a DET event, you are going to have to:

Obey physics and not only justify the mechanism by which recoil is countered, but also prove taht they CAN generate such force as to counter it (which is much harder than it sounds - which is why none of you have done so.)

What the Fuck?

Are you just ignoring are posts, or what?

FreeZa Saga; Battle against Freeza. Freeza fires an energy ball at Goku.

Goku stops the ball with both hands, trying to stop it from crushing him and exploding.

Goku finally knocks the ball away with a punch. The ball flys past Freeza and into space.

The Ball hits a nearby planet, which is immediately destroyed.

[KK]

If they can get into power struggles with one ki blast being pushed against another ki blast, how could that be anything other than DET?

I'm sorry, but you're basically attempting to rationalize Looney Tunes, and you look like a fucking moron for it.

[JodoForce]

If they can get into power struggles with one ki blast being pushed against another ki blast, how could that be anything other than DET?

*Scratches head* Wtf are you talking about?

SAMAS: the problem with your examples--if you *assume* that the events are DET in the first place, those examples show that the characters have the ability to negate the recoil generated by their blasts. But since the claim that the phenomena are DET is what's being questioned, you can't use these examples--Connor suggested that if you could show that they have the power to negate the recoil generated by DET, you can go towards proving the case for DET. You can't use an example which assumes DET to prove negation of recoil-> prove DET. That's circular logic.

Connor: even if you prove that the mechanism for the Z-warriors' destructive power comes from a chain reaction, you still need to prove that the nature of the chain reaction is constrained such that it will not also work on shields. We know zilch about this chain reaction and for all we know it may not be dependent on reacting with matter at all.

[JodoForce]

If they can get into power struggles with one ki blast being pushed against another ki blast, how could that be anything other than DET?

wtf are you talking about?

Show me ONE DET-based real life phenomenon that consists of two energy beams meeting in midair with the weaker beam prevented from meeting its target while the stronger beam continues to hit its target after being subtracted the energy in the weaker beam.

Or, for that matter, one phenomenon of any kind that looks like this.

[SAMAS]

Well, let's compare:

The Death Star establishes a benchmark for Imperial technology and resources, and this benchmark is so high that Federation cultists will quite literally do or say anything to refute it. Their typical response to any Death Star-related discussion is to claim that the Death Star was not as powerful as claimed, or that the Death Star is a freakish anomaly, millenia ahead of all our other technology. Both claims are ludicrous to the point of being idiotic; the Death Star's power is irrefutably established in canon by the destruction of Alderaan, and it is idiotic to believe that the power generation or weapons technology of an ISD would be millenia behind a Death Star constructed by the same civilization.

The absolute lower limit for the gravitational binding energy of an Earth-like planet is 2.2E32 joules (click here for the derivation of this figure). There are many different ways to damage a planet, but you can quite literally slice, dice, melt, or vaporize a planet without destroying it. The only way to destroy it is to scatter its mass at incredible speed, so that gravitational forces cannot re-assemble it.

Of course, absolute limits are usually much lower than realistic figures, and this is no exception. If Alderaan exploded at mere escape velocity, it would have taken more than ten minutes to double in size. This obviously wasn't the case; the planet exploded very violently. Scaling of the Alderaan destruction scene in ANH leads to the conclusion that the approximate speed of the debris cloud's outermost region (not the meaningless pyrotechnic "ring" seen in the SE's) is roughly 1.8E7 m/s. Therefore, if we assume that the average velocity of the "cloud" was roughly 1/3 this amount, then a more accurate energy estimate is 1E38 joules (click here for the evidence behind this figure).

It is often stated that the Death Star takes one full day to charge its main weapon for a planet-destroying blast, although this is actually over-conservative since the original Death Star destroyed Alderaan and was already charged and ready to destroy the rebel base on Yavin's moon later that day. Nevertheless, we can use the 1-day figure to determine that it must generate at least 1.2E33 watts on a steady-state basis to charge the weapon, plus whatever it needs to power the station's systems and propel the station through space. This amount of energy is enormously large- equivalent to 3 million times the power output of our sun! Neither nuclear fusion or matter/antimatter reaction would be sufficient to produce this much power, which is why the Death Star requires a hypermatter reactor, as mentioned in Star Wars Cross Sections. This hypermatter reactor is far more powerful than anything yet seen in the Federation, being capable of producing millions of times the energy of the Federation homeworld's sun.

Some Federation cultists angrily dispute the enormous power estimates for the Death Star. Some of them claim that 1E38 joules is not required to raise the energy state of Alderaan by 1E38 joules (thus revealing their ignorance of the First Law of Thermodynamics), while others claim that the Death Star weapon may draw upon energy from another source such as the NDF harvested by phasers. However, this is simply not the case: according to SWICS, "the Death Star is built around a hypermatter reactor which can generate enough power to destroy an entire planet."- this is an explicit statement indicating that the necessary energy comes entirely from the Death Star's hypermatter reactor core, not from the target matter or any other tertiary source.

P.S.: Mike, if you're reading this, sorry for the reference.

Aside from the actual calculations, which as you can see are already done above, I have used little more information other than what is shown. With the exeption of Namek, all planetary destructons have been nothing more than the blast hitting, and the planet exploding.

In other words, The burden of proof that is isn't DET, especially in my last example, is on Consequences.

His only attempt at proving is to claim that because the anime doesn't show all the details of the destruction of the Moon, means that the destructions of Arlia, Vegita, and Earth could not have been DET (Strawman).

First, he claimed that the shots did not show 1E38 joules of recoil, they could not impart 1E38 joules to destroy the targets.

We countered with the actual physical properties of most DBZ energy blasts are more similar to conventional cannon shells rather than Laser cannons. In other words, the force is generated in the impact/explosion of the blast rather than in the impact alone. And on top of that, the fact that the Z-warriors have repeatedly managed to hold themselves in place even in midair despite immense forces or blasts that would easily move someone of their body mass.

Oh, and for the final "Beam Duel" between Cell and Gohan? The reason the two blasts never explosed was because both fighters were containing the energies until they hit their targets. Cell couldn't just blow up his blast because Gohan could use his to deflect or possibly(but unlikely) nullify it, even if it did cause massive damage to the Earth and system. Remember, he was trying to kill Gohan. And Gohan wouldn't for obvious reasons. In short, they both needed to overcome the other's blast and kill the other at the same time. For that, they needed the full blast. You saw that when the Z-fighters attacked Cell, Cell had to take power from his kamehameha to protect himself from their attacks, and to blow them away. But the power of Vegita's attacks forced him to take too much power away, and allowed Gohan to overpower and destroy him.

[Darth_Shinji]

If they can get into power struggles with one ki blast being pushed against another ki blast, how could that be anything other than DET?

wtf are you talking about?

Show me ONE DET-based real life phenomenon that consists of two energy beams meeting in midair with the weaker beam prevented from meeting its target while the stronger beam continues to hit its target after being subtracted the energy in the weaker beam.

Or, for that matter, one phenomenon of any kind that looks like this.

Not energy beams, but phyisical objects of varios force can do that (Two people pushing each other). Not the first time DBZ chi (and anime chi in gernreal) has shown kinetic properties.

And can someone explan this 100g mess? We do have examples of when DBZ fighters are powered down they have less phyisical strenght and toughness, but when powered up they can use there chi in a telakenetic role and increase thier attributes. In ways all of thier flying, monementium manipulation, ect is mealy a extreme version of what Jedi can do.

So how can you condone Wongs calcs on Jedi speed in Phantom but say that ther monumentuim shown is not enought for the scale they are using? They are mearly using thier chi in a tk role to control thier monuetuim. Which is a proven, canon, facct.

[JodoForce]

Hmm... have there been occasions where a weaker character (who would have to be as strong as the moon-busting Piccolo) attacked a stronger character with a full power Kamehameha and the stronger character just stood there, took the blast (which EXPLODES) and remained standing where he was? This would conclusively show that the stronger character has enough TK power to counter the recoil of a planet-busting blast, since he is able to counter the recoil at the *receiving* end (where it doesn't matter whether the blast energy was given by DET or not, the blasts have been shown to have devastating kinetic effects on an unprotected target regardless of the mechanism--unlike SAMA's examples)

[JodoForce]

Not energy beams, but phyisical objects of varios force can do that (Two people pushing each other). Not the first time DBZ chi (and anime chi in gernreal) has shown kinetic properties.

And can someone explan this 100g mess? We do have examples of when DBZ fighters are powered down they have less phyisical strenght and toughness, but when powered up they can use there chi in a telakenetic role and increase thier attributes. In ways all of thier flying, monementium manipulation, ect is mealy a extreme version of what Jedi can do.

So how can you condone Wongs calcs on Jedi speed in Phantom but say that ther monumentuim shown is not enought for the scale they are using? They are mearly using thier chi in a tk role to control thier monuetuim. Which is a proven, canon, facct.

And the other point in the objection I have to make against KK, is that since DBZ blasts have repeatedly been shown to release its energy store in an explosion on impact, how beams interact with each other before exploding has nothing to do with the energy delivery mechanism (whether it's DET or not) since the energy isn't even being delivered when the beams collide in midair.

[KK]

wtf are you talking about?

Show me ONE DET-based real life phenomenon that consists of two energy beams meeting in midair with the weaker beam prevented from meeting its target while the stronger beam continues to hit its target after being subtracted the energy in the weaker beam.

Or, for that matter, one phenomenon of any kind that looks like this.

That isn't how the DBZ ki-struggles work, though.

They push against each other with force, and the person who can supply the most power overwhelms the other.

SSj Goku vs. Frieza. Goku fired a massive Kamehameha at Frieza, and Frieza surrounded his body with ki and flew straight into it, and they struggled against each other this way for quite some time.

The beams are exerting force against each other.

There's the word I'm looking for. The Z-Senshi use the Force. Would that explination fulfill your desire for ki-blast realism?

[KK]

Also note Cell vs. SSj2 Gohan.

When Gohan's beam finally overpowered Cell's beam, his ki beam didn't hit Cell and blow up. It went right through him like a firehose on a bee-hive, tearing Cell's body apart with force. The beam continued straight on into space.

[Darth_Shinji]

And the other point in the objection I have to make against KK, is that since DBZ blasts have repeatedly been shown to release its energy store in an explosion on impact, how beams interact with each other before exploding has nothing to do with the energy delivery mechanism (whether it's DET or not) since the energy isn't even being delivered when the beams collide in midair.

But the energy is being delivered along the beam. Its the perfect explanation for the moon hand of god effect. Roshi's blast is delivering the energy in one direction, so all the pieces are being pushed in that same direction. You can look all over the series for examples of chi being transformed ionto a varity of different energies, kinetic, heat, explosive, ect.

Of course another threoy could be that the energy itself is being carried in some sort of tk packet. Would explain why we have beam and burst modes and how they can be diverged and controlled mid-flight.

Also on a side note: I wasn't meaning you when talking about the Jedi I was talking to the poeple who are getting on the whole "not enought momentuim kick". I switched from talking to you to talking to the whole thread in gernral without saying so.

[JodoForce]

Still, I have no idea why KK talks about this beam collision phenomenon as if it's some kind of proof that the beams deliver energy via DET.

[KK]

Then there's Tenshinhan's Shin-Kikoho against Cell's second form.

It was a ki beam the physically pinned Cell. He was holding him down, but the beam wasn't exploding against him. Cell was trying to push against the beam with physical might.

It was, to use the same analogy, like a little kid trying to push against the stream of a firehose.

[KK]

Still, I have no idea why KK talks about this beam collision phenomenon as if it's some kind of proof that the beams deliver energy via DET.

Goku uses a combination of the fucking Force and Jedi mind tricks to blow up planets.

Does that suit your unrelenting thirst for realism?


People have pushed PHYSICALLY against ki beams and struggled to overcome the FORCE of the beam. That's DET.

[JodoForce]

I mean, two objects the properties of which we are trying to understand, interacting with each other--that's not likely to yield any useful information for analysis at all. Usually you look for an interaction with a real-world object instead

Now you have shown this push-of-war interaction to be completely different from the planet destruction mechanism. It's a kinetic force mechanism not DET If the shot against the moon had used the same mechanism it would have just drilled a hole right through the moon

[KK]

There is no ki in real life, dumbass. How are we supposed to real-life examples of ki interacting with objects?

[KK]

I forgot.

:wft: :insert any other overused smiley face:

[JodoForce]

Unless of course kinetic force mechanism = DET too But like I just said, that mechanism is not the mechanism used to blow up planets, even if it is DET. The type of DET you're trying to argue for when blowing up planets is different from the type of DET you've demonstrated to exist when DBZ energy beams push against each other. Agreed?

I'm on your side (DBZ's side) you know KK. I just don't want you lot to look like fools in front of Connor and consequences