Thor 4 News (MCU).

FAN: Discuss various fictional worlds that don't qualify for SF.

Moderator: Steve

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Thor 4 News (MCU).

Post by The Romulan Republic »

So, they're bringing back Ragnarok's director, and a couple other big stories recently dropped.

First, Natalie Portman will be back... as Thor. Looks like Thor's sticking with the GotG for the long haul, and Portman will take his place, adapting the female Thor arc from the comics.

https://www.vox.com/culture/2019/7/23/2 ... ighty-thor
Marvel took over San Diego Comic-Con this year with a glimpse into what’s called Phase 4 of its gigantic Marvel Cinematic Universe enterprise, the studio’s upcoming slate of movies and television shows for the next few years. The studio revealed during its lengthy panel that new characters will enter the MCU (including a vampire-slaying daywalker), and familiar ones will be return for new adventures. But arguably the biggest surprise involved how one returning character will tilt the axis of power in the MCU.

Natalie Portman’s Jane Foster, last properly featured in 2013’s Thor: The Dark World, will return in 2021’s Thor: Love and Thunder, and will have the thunder god’s powers.

While Foster never technically left the universe there are a few lines about how she’s off being a scientist (Avengers: Age of Ultron), or that she and Thor broke up (Thor: Ragnarok), to explain why she didn’t appear. It was thought that Portman was done with the MCU, making this news a huge surprise. Add to that the reveal that Foster is going to lift Mjölnir (Portman posed with the mythical hammer at SDCC) and wield the powers of the Asgardian stormcaller, and it raises even more questions as to what Portman will be doing in Love and Thunder, along with Chris Hemsworth, Tessa Thompson, and director Taika Waititi.

What we do know is that Marvel’s comic books have set a precedent for a woman taking up the Thor title, and it could help give us clues about what Love and Thunder will hold for Jane Foster and the rest of the cast.

The question at the heart of this story: How can Jane Foster be Thor if Thor already exists?

Unlike in the movies, Marvel comics have played with the idea of multiple beings being able to wield Thor’s hammer Mjölnir; meanwhile, only Captain America and Vision have been able to lift Mjölnir onscreen. But on the page, characters as diverse as the Silver Surfer (a character primarily known in the Fantastic Four universe), Storm (X-Men), and Beta Ray Bill (Omega Flight) have all wielded the weapon.

Being able to lift Thor’s magic hammer means then that those characters have been deemed “worthy” enough to harness the power of a god, and trusted to not abuse that power. The gist of that is more or less captured by the inscription (the pronouns sometimes change based on its possessor) on Mjölnir, which reads: “Whosoever holds this hammer, if (s)he be worthy, shall possess the power of Thor”:

Thor himself being worthy — brave, selfless, noble, kind — enough to wield the Mjölnir has long been a recurring story for the Asgardian, like in 2011’s Fear Itself comic book event, when the fate of humanity hinges upon Thor’s sacrificing himself to save Earth. In Fear Itself, Odin wants to ravage Earth to save the universe from a villainous force known as The Serpent but Thor believes in humanity and, with the help of the Avengers, leads a last-ditch effort to protect the world (which proves his worthiness).

The same themes are present in the 2014 crossover event Original Sin. That storyline is about the murder of the Watcher named Uatu, who just so happens to have observed entire history of Earth and all of its valuable secrets. In Original Sin, issue 7, Nick Fury whispers something to Thor which makes him Thor unworthy to wield his hammer.

We find out later that Fury tells Thor a soul-shattering revelation: that mankind is better without gods. This immediately makes Thor realize that gods do not deserve the worship or adoration of from humans, changes his worldview about wanting to be a god, and becomes “unworthy.” Thor — a.k.a. Odinson — chooses to live as a normal Asgardgian.

This sets into motion the ascension of a woman into the role of Thor, picking up the Mjölnir to defend Asgard.

At first, the new Thor’s identity is a mystery. It isn’t until Jason Aaron and Russell Dauterman’s Thor No. 8, published in 2015, that we find out who this woman is. And they introduce her through a nifty bit of storytelling, in a story about female heroes, mainly Avengers, teaming up to defeat the Destroyer.

One by one, female superheroes appear alongside Thor. Since they appear with her, they can’t be her, so it becomes a process of elimination:

Jane becomes known as the Mighty Thor as opposed to just bearing the name Thor, as the original Asgardian still wields that name — albeit he becomes known as the Unworthy Thor for a bit. But her ascension into godhood and becoming a superhero, detailed in Aaron and Dauterman’s Mighty Thor comic, comes with a twist.

She’s dying of breast cancer, as shown in the panel above, and wielding the powers of the Thunder God inhibits the chemotherapy treatments she needs to defend her body against the disease. In order to live, she needs to stop swinging Mjölnir. But if she doesn’t become Thor and defend the world, then who will?

Natalie Portman will portray Jane Foster and continue Mighty Thor’s legacy in the movies
The details surrounding Thor: Love and Thunder are pretty scant. Understandably so, considering the movie isn’t coming out until 2021, and we found out that Ragnarok director Taika Waititi had signed back onto the project on July 16, just one week ago. But Waititi tweeted after San Diego Comic-Con that Foster would be referred to as Mighty Thor, signaling that Aaron and Dauterman’s comic, which follows Jane’s adventures as Thor, may serve as the source material for the film:

Correction. She's called Mighty Thor.

— Taika Waititi (@TaikaWaititi) July 21, 2019
The other thing we know is that the idea of Thor reconciling his own worthiness first came up in Avengers: Endgame, and in a major way. After killing Thanos, Thor falls into a deep depression and begins drinking and eating heavily. It takes a toll on his psyche, and it’s not until he time travels back to the Thor: The Dark World era and talks to his mother that he is able to look into his soul and remember why he is the wielder of Mjölnir.

But at the conclusion of Endgame, Thor makes a major life change. He departs with the Guardians of the Galaxy for a bit of soul-searching and self-discovery. He leaves New Asgard in the hands of Valkyrie, shirking off the responsibility of defending his kingdom and perhaps, too, his godliness.

The curious thing about Portman’s Foster assuming the title of Thor is that Foster has been a non-entity in the Marvel Cinematic Universe for more than six years. Even in Endgame, which allows Thor to travel back to the day the dark elves attack Asgard in The Dark World, Portman’s Foster just barely appears.

Most surprising is that in 2016, Portman said in an interview with The Wall Street Journal that she thought she was done with the franchise. “As far as I know, I’m done,” she said. “I mean, I don’t know if maybe one day they’ll ask for an Avengers 7, or whatever.”

But with Foster now having a meatier role in Love and Thunder, Waititi reinvigorating the franchise with Thor: Ragnarok, the winsome Tessa Thompson as “king” of New Asgard Valkyrie, and Hemsworth playing a Thor that’s more self-actualized and grounded than before, Portman returning as Jane Fos-Thor feels like a new start for the character and a new adventure for Thor. Both of them.
Also, they've confirmed Valkyrie is bisexual, and will have a lesbian romance plot in the next film (in keeping with her comics characterization):

https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/22/entertai ... index.html
(CNN)Asgardian warrior Valkyrie is now officially the first LGBTQ superhero in the Marvel cinematic universe. And who better to blast this barrier with a Freudian crotch cannon than real-life LGBTQ icon Tessa Thompson?

Thompson teased the news Saturday at San Diego Comic-Con during the reveal of "Thor: Love and Thunder," the upcoming fourth installment of the "Thor" franchise. Marvel Studios' Kevin Feige confirmed it to Gizmodo.

When asked whether "Love and Thunder" would have an LGBTQ storyline, Feige responded, "The answer is yes."

"How that impacts the story remains to be seen with that level of representation you'll see across our films, not in just Thor 4," he said.

This is great news for people who have fallen in love with Thompson's not-completely-straight portrayal of Valkyrie. Thompson herself expressed disappointment that material more clearly revealing Valkyrie as bisexual was cut from 2017's "Thor: Ragnarok," but even without the confirmation, her character radiated bi energy.

There's a very good reason for that: Just as anyone familiar with Marvel comics could have told you what happened after the big snap in "Infinity Wars," they could also tell you that Valkyrie's been bi -- for years.

In 2013's Fearless Defenders series, Valkyrie had a tense will-they/won't-they relationship with Dr. Annabelle Riggs, an archaeologist who made no secret of her attraction to the dreamy shieldmaiden. They literally kiss in the very first issue!

When Riggs (already in love) brings it up, Valkyrie delivers this devastating curve:
"I have lived for millennia," she says. "Do you believe you are the first person I've rescued -- man or woman -- who has rewarded me with a kiss?"

Annabelle is eventually killed when Valkyrie temporarily transforms into the Doom Maiden of Rage. (Valkyrie is really the spirit of the Norse heroine Brunnhilde inhabiting a line of different host bodies, and you can think of a Doom Maiden as a dark squad of Valkyrior).

Valkyrie is so devastated by Annabelle's death that she literally BRINGS HER BACK TO LIFE, and they SHARE A BODY. It gets even weirder from there, when Annabelle starts dating another lady, but still. It's bisexual, guys.

Marvel's LGBT roots
Although Valkyrie may now claim the title of the first LGBTQ superhero in MCU history, Marvel Comics has a few prominent LGBTQ characters in its lineup. The most famous is the X-Men franchise's Northstar, who is considered the first openly gay comic book superhero. (Northstar has been around for decades, but you may recall that the character made waves again when he married his boyfriend in 2012 in another first: a gay superhero wedding.)

And, by the way, Marvel doesn't have the market cornered on canonically LGBTQ characters. All the way back in 2016, Wonder Woman comic writer Greg Rucka confirmed that Wonder Woman is bisexual because of ... well, the logic of the whole "living your entire life on an island of ladies" thing.

"It's supposed to be paradise," he said during an interview with Comicosity. "You're supposed to be able to live happily. You're supposed to be able -- in a context where one can live happily, and part of what an individual needs for that happiness is to have a partner -- to have a fulfilling, romantic and sexual relationship. And the only options are women."

With that commentary, Diana's line from 2017's "Wonder Woman" movie pairs like a rare vintage wine: "When it comes to procreation, men are essential, but for pleasure ... unnecessary."

A new phase of representation
This weekend's announcement of the next phase of Marvel's TV and movie franchises has sparked serious conversations about representation. Aside from the Valkyrie news, the studio's upcoming slate of projects is far more diverse than previous phases, especially when it comes to women.

Black Widow is getting her own standalone film in 2020, and Captain Marvel will be getting a sequel. Even bigger news? Natalie Portman, aka Jane Foster, will take up Thor's hammer in "Thor: Love and Thunder." Other projects, like "Shang Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings," a second "Black Panther" film and the TV show "The Eternals," will showcase racially diverse heroes, both super and human.

There's no question that Marvel is aiming for more representation with its Phase 4 lineup, but when it comes to Valkyrie and her sexuality, the comics giant is just staying true to canon.
At least they're trying new things and keeping things interesting post-Endgame.

Now excuse me while I bask in the horrified wails of the Alt. Reich. :twisted:

Oh, and its even better because Norse mythology and symbolism has often been co-opted by the Neo-Nazis. So there's something especially beautiful about the MCU's Asgard now having a non-white* bisexual woman for its ruler, and Thor now being a woman.


*Valkyrie's actor, Tessa Thompson, is about as multi-racial as they come. According to her IMDB page, her father is from an Afro-Panamanian background and her mother is part Mexican, part British.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
User avatar
FaxModem1
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7700
Joined: 2002-10-30 06:40pm
Location: In a dark reflection of a better world

Re: Thor 4 News (MCU).

Post by FaxModem1 »

Sigh, I was one of the few who liked the first Thor film, and the MCU wants to distance themselves from that direction as much as possible. Expect any emotional gravitas in Thor 4 to be swiftly underwritten for a quick gag, aka the destruction of Asgard scene in Thor Ragnarok. Because why should we care what the characters are going through when we can have a laugh?
Image
User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 16300
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Australia

Re: Thor 4 News (MCU).

Post by Gandalf »

On the upside, more Taika Waititi. He was awesome and brought a real sense of fun to a universe that needed it.

On the downside, Jane Foster's back.
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Thor 4 News (MCU).

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Gandalf wrote: 2019-07-24 05:31pm On the upside, more Taika Waititi. He was awesome and brought a real sense of fun to a universe that needed it.

On the downside, Jane Foster's back.
On the plus side, it sounds like they're actually giving her a more substantive role this time.

Portman's a good actor, when she isn't given shit to work with.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
User avatar
Sidewinder
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5466
Joined: 2005-05-18 10:23pm
Location: Feasting on those who fell in battle
Contact:

Re: Thor 4 News (MCU).

Post by Sidewinder »

Why can't Jane Foster have HER OWN superheroine identity? Why did Jason Aaron give her Thor's- including HIS NAME- demonstrating an astounding LACK of imagination when he wrote Goddess of Thunder? Why don't Kevin Feige and Taika Waititi recognize that they'll trap Jane Foster in Thor's shadow- dooming the character to negative comparisons to her predecessor- if they call her by that name, instead of letting her have her own superheroine identity?

It can't be that hard to give Jane Foster an appropriate codename, considering how vast human mythology is. Maybe Hervor, after the shieldmaiden?
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)
User avatar
Majin Gojira
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6017
Joined: 2002-08-06 11:27pm
Location: Philadelphia

Re: Thor 4 News (MCU).

Post by Majin Gojira »

When Jane took up the hammer in a What If story, she was dubbed "Thordis."

Of course, given she has a PHD, she could also be called ... DocTHOR!
ISARMA: Daikaiju Coordinator: Just Add Radiation
Justice League- Molly Hayes: Respect Hats or Freakin' Else!
Browncoat
Supernatural Taisen - "[This Story] is essentially "Wouldn't it be awesome if this happened?" Followed by explosions."

Reviewing movies is a lot like Paleontology: The Evidence is there...but no one seems to agree upon it.

"God! Are you so bored that you enjoy seeing us humans suffer?! Why can't you let this poor man live happily with his son! What kind of God are you, crushing us like ants?!" - Kyoami, Ran
User avatar
Rogue 9
Scrapping TIEs since 1997
Posts: 18639
Joined: 2003-11-12 01:10pm
Location: Classified
Contact:

Re: Thor 4 News (MCU).

Post by Rogue 9 »

So does getting the hammer and the powers confer rulership of the Asgardians? Because Thor left that to Valkyrie. It'll be interesting to see how that plays out.
It's Rogue, not Rouge!

HAB | KotL | VRWC/ELC/CDA | TRotR | The Anti-Confederate | Sluggite | Gamer | Blogger | Staff Reporter | Student | Musician
User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 16300
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Australia

Re: Thor 4 News (MCU).

Post by Gandalf »

Sidewinder wrote: 2019-07-25 10:10pm Why can't Jane Foster have HER OWN superheroine identity? Why did Jason Aaron give her Thor's- including HIS NAME- demonstrating an astounding LACK of imagination when he wrote Goddess of Thunder? Why don't Kevin Feige and Taika Waititi recognize that they'll trap Jane Foster in Thor's shadow- dooming the character to negative comparisons to her predecessor- if they call her by that name, instead of letting her have her own superheroine identity?

It can't be that hard to give Jane Foster an appropriate codename, considering how vast human mythology is. Maybe Hervor, after the shieldmaiden?
I'm unsure if this is satire.
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Thor 4 News (MCU).

Post by The Romulan Republic »

IIRC, Sidewinder has gone off on this issue before, so probably sincere.
Sidewinder wrote: 2019-07-25 10:10pm Why can't Jane Foster have HER OWN superheroine identity? Why did Jason Aaron give her Thor's- including HIS NAME- demonstrating an astounding LACK of imagination when he wrote Goddess of Thunder? Why don't Kevin Feige and Taika Waititi recognize that they'll trap Jane Foster in Thor's shadow- dooming the character to negative comparisons to her predecessor- if they call her by that name, instead of letting her have her own superheroine identity?

It can't be that hard to give Jane Foster an appropriate codename, considering how vast human mythology is. Maybe Hervor, after the shieldmaiden?
Because if you create a new character, then its iffy whether that character will succeed, and it'll take time to build a fan base and develop them. Casting a woman in an established character's role is a quicker and surer way to at least give women more representation and opportunities in media. Its sad that it should be that way, but long-established characters get more attention, and most long-established protagonists, perhaps particularly in this genre, are male, because sexism.

Ideally, we would do both, not one or the other.

Saying that she will be compared negatively to Thor... well, let's face it, the people doing that will mostly be sexists, so... we shouldn't do something progressive because misogynists will whine about it? Color me unimpressed.

In any case, she's not actually technically replacing Thor. Hemsworth's character, the original Thor, will still presumably be around- he'll just be off with the Guardians for a while. Portman's character, likewise, is still the same character- she'll just be taking on some of Thor's powers and duties. So while they may choose to use the name "Thor" like a superhero identity that can be transferred, as well as a personal name, Portman isn't actually playing the Thor we've known all this time. She's existing along side him, and fulfilling his duties while he's off adventuring.

Essentially, Jane Foster is becoming Thor the title, and Thor the man is still the same old Thor.
Rogue 9 wrote: 2019-07-25 11:17pm So does getting the hammer and the powers confer rulership of the Asgardians? Because Thor left that to Valkyrie. It'll be interesting to see how that plays out.
Having the hammer alone doesn't convey rulership- Thor had the hammer while Odin was still king, and he remained king after the hammer's destruction. In any case, I assume Thor, as King, could change the rules around succession, and did so when he named Valkyrie as ruler in his stead. So I'd assume Portman-Thor is just a champion of Asgard working for/with Valkyrie.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 16300
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Australia

Re: Thor 4 News (MCU).

Post by Gandalf »

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2019-07-25 11:36pm
Rogue 9 wrote: 2019-07-25 11:17pm So does getting the hammer and the powers confer rulership of the Asgardians? Because Thor left that to Valkyrie. It'll be interesting to see how that plays out.
Having the hammer alone doesn't convey rulership- Thor had the hammer while Odin was still king, and he remained king after the hammer's destruction. In any case, I assume Thor, as King, could change the rules around succession, and did so when he named Valkyrie as ruler in his stead. So I'd assume Portman-Thor is just a champion of Asgard working for/with Valkyrie.
Maybe with the loss of Asgard and the other magic weapons, it serves as a new symbol of monarchy?
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin
User avatar
Sidewinder
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5466
Joined: 2005-05-18 10:23pm
Location: Feasting on those who fell in battle
Contact:

Re: Thor 4 News (MCU).

Post by Sidewinder »

The Romulan Republic wrote: 2019-07-25 11:36pm
Sidewinder wrote: 2019-07-25 10:10pm Why can't Jane Foster have HER OWN superheroine identity? Why did Jason Aaron give her Thor's- including HIS NAME- demonstrating an astounding LACK of imagination when he wrote Goddess of Thunder? Why don't Kevin Feige and Taika Waititi recognize that they'll trap Jane Foster in Thor's shadow- dooming the character to negative comparisons to her predecessor- if they call her by that name, instead of letting her have her own superheroine identity?

It can't be that hard to give Jane Foster an appropriate codename, considering how vast human mythology is. Maybe Hervor, after the shieldmaiden?
Because if you create a new character, then its iffy whether that character will succeed, and it'll take time to build a fan base and develop them. Casting a woman in an established character's role is a quicker and surer way to at least give women more representation and opportunities in media. Its sad that it should be that way, but long-established characters get more attention, and most long-established protagonists, perhaps particularly in this genre, are male, because sexism.
This is just a bad excuse a LAZY writer would use. If you aren't confident your ORIGINAL female character can stand on her own two feet, then you should rethink the concept- that will at least spare you the public humiliation you'll be put through for STEALING a male character's IDENTITY.
Saying that she will be compared negatively to Thor... well, let's face it, the people doing that will mostly be sexists, so... we shouldn't do something progressive because misogynists will whine about it?
Why are you dismissing WOMEN's criticism of Hollywood's current lack of imagination? The Tanner Twins have criticized the She-Ra remake and Captain Marvel WITHOUT sounding like male edgelords speaking in falsetto to disguise their real genders.

You're not helping women by silencing those whose opinions don't match yours.
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)
User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 16300
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Australia

Re: Thor 4 News (MCU).

Post by Gandalf »

Oh Sidewinder. You never disappoint.

So when Nick Fury stopped looking like David Hasselhoff and started looking like Samuel L Jackson, were you similarly incensed?
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin
User avatar
Sidewinder
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5466
Joined: 2005-05-18 10:23pm
Location: Feasting on those who fell in battle
Contact:

Re: Thor 4 News (MCU).

Post by Sidewinder »

Gandalf wrote: 2019-07-26 01:27am So when Nick Fury stopped looking like David Hasselhoff and started looking like Samuel L Jackson, were you similarly incensed?
You're shifting the goalposts. I don't complain about the fact Ultimate Nick Fury is black instead of white, for the same damn reason I don't complain about the fact Mirror Universe James T. Kirk is villainous instead of heroic; I understand the black and white Nick Furys are from different universes with different histories that led to the aforementioned differences in details.

On the other hand, if Yaphet Kotto replaced Patrick Stewart as Jean-Luc Picard in Season 3 of 'The Next Generation', and we were told Picard has always been black DESPITE seeing a white man portray the same damn character in the previous two seasons of the same damn show, wouldn't the audience be understandably confused?
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)
User avatar
Imperial Overlord
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11978
Joined: 2004-08-19 04:30am
Location: The Tower at Charm

Re: Thor 4 News (MCU).

Post by Imperial Overlord »

Sidewinder wrote: 2019-07-26 03:43am
On the other hand, if Yaphet Kotto replaced Patrick Stewart as Jean-Luc Picard in Season 3 of 'The Next Generation', and we were told Picard has always been black DESPITE seeing a white man portray the same damn character in the previous two seasons of the same damn show, wouldn't the audience be understandably confused?
Which is not at all what's happening here, since we're not changing the past but passing on the mantle, that's not the point. The point is that it is all right for an alien cyborg horse dude to pick up the hammer and get the power of Thor (Beta Ray Bill) but too much for a human female. That totally violates the character right? :roll:

The only objectionable part is including Thor's name as part of the package, which is dumb but pretty minor. Unless there's a deep well of Beta Ray Bill hate that you have to share with us. :wink:
The Excellent Prismatic Spray. For when you absolutely, positively must kill a motherfucker. Accept no substitutions. Contact a magician of the later Aeons for details. Some conditions may apply.
User avatar
NeoGoomba
Sith Devotee
Posts: 3269
Joined: 2002-12-22 11:35am
Location: Upstate New York

Re: Thor 4 News (MCU).

Post by NeoGoomba »

So does this mean Sidewinder is also pissed that Captain America is now a black dude with wings?
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know...tomorrow."
-Agent Kay
User avatar
Sidewinder
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5466
Joined: 2005-05-18 10:23pm
Location: Feasting on those who fell in battle
Contact:

Re: Thor 4 News (MCU).

Post by Sidewinder »

NeoGoomba wrote: 2019-07-26 08:11am So does this mean Sidewinder is also pissed that Captain America is now a black dude with wings?
No, I have no problem with a black actor playing Captain America. I will be pissed if you claim the black actor is playing Steve Rogers, as the former is a title, and the latter is a NAME. I will also ask, "Are you that fucking ignorant of history?!" if you claim the US would have no problem giving the title to a black man in 1941; I'll ask the same damn question if you claim the US is just as racist in 2019 as it was in 1945, and that there is no chance Sam Wilson can claim the title now.

And don't falsely accuse me of being white supremacist. I'm Chinese-American.
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)
User avatar
NeoGoomba
Sith Devotee
Posts: 3269
Joined: 2002-12-22 11:35am
Location: Upstate New York

Re: Thor 4 News (MCU).

Post by NeoGoomba »

But in the comics it has been canon for quite awhile that "Thor" is a title/mantle that is handed down, and Jane had previously been Thor for a long time. Just like Eric Masterson and Beta Ray Bill before her. There is always a story of Odinson then proving worthy again of reclaiming the mantle, but "Thor" has become basically a position in the Asgard pantheon. Hence why I get confused when dudes are getting pissed that Jane will become Thor when it has been standard procedure in the comics for a long time.
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know...tomorrow."
-Agent Kay
User avatar
Sidewinder
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5466
Joined: 2005-05-18 10:23pm
Location: Feasting on those who fell in battle
Contact:

Re: Thor 4 News (MCU).

Post by Sidewinder »

NeoGoomba wrote: 2019-07-26 10:15am But in the comics it has been canon for quite awhile that "Thor" is a title/mantle that is handed down, and Jane had previously been Thor for a long time.
The idea "Thor" is a title/mantle, is one that went away the moment Odin and Frigga appeared in the comics and claimed Donald Blake as their son's reincarnation. If the name is the title/mantle, does that mean I can claim your IRL name, go to your parents' house, say, "Hi! I'm your son!" and expect them to take care of me? That I can go to your employer and say, "I'm [your IRL name]! Where's my paycheck?" and take the money you worked for, as my own?

If the comic book writers had Thor and Frigga claim Jane Foster was Thor reborn, after their son heroically sacrificed himself to save Asgard and avert Ragnarok, then I'd have no problem with Jane Foster as Thor. The comic book writers didn't do that; instead, they had Jane Foster steal Thor's very name from a still-living Thor.
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)
User avatar
ray245
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7954
Joined: 2005-06-10 11:30pm

Re: Thor 4 News (MCU).

Post by ray245 »

Names can become titles very easily in human history. See how the name Caesar was transformed from a personal name into a title.
Humans are such funny creatures. We are selfish about selflessness, yet we can love something so much that we can hate something.
User avatar
Sidewinder
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5466
Joined: 2005-05-18 10:23pm
Location: Feasting on those who fell in battle
Contact:

Re: Thor 4 News (MCU).

Post by Sidewinder »

ray245 wrote: 2019-07-26 12:39pm Names can become titles very easily in human history. See how the name Caesar was transformed from a personal name into a title.
Remember, this happened AFTER Julius Caesar died.
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)
User avatar
Elheru Aran
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13073
Joined: 2004-03-04 01:15am
Location: Georgia

Re: Thor 4 News (MCU).

Post by Elheru Aran »

Sidewinder wrote: 2019-07-26 12:54pm
ray245 wrote: 2019-07-26 12:39pm Names can become titles very easily in human history. See how the name Caesar was transformed from a personal name into a title.
Remember, this happened AFTER Julius Caesar died.
Why can't it be both, though?

Odin and Frigga have a son, who they name Thor, who then later takes on the mantle/title/position/whatever of 'The Mighty Thor'. Later on, Thor gives up his title, which is then taken by Jane Foster.

Simple.
It's a strange world. Let's keep it that way.
User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 16300
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Australia

Re: Thor 4 News (MCU).

Post by Gandalf »

Glorious Patriot Sidewinder, why are you appealing to comic continuities to deal with film stuff?
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin
User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 16300
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Australia

Re: Thor 4 News (MCU).

Post by Gandalf »

Sidewinder wrote: 2019-07-26 10:09am
NeoGoomba wrote: 2019-07-26 08:11am So does this mean Sidewinder is also pissed that Captain America is now a black dude with wings?
No, I have no problem with a black actor playing Captain America. I will be pissed if you claim the black actor is playing Steve Rogers, as the former is a title, and the latter is a NAME. I will also ask, "Are you that fucking ignorant of history?!" if you claim the US would have no problem giving the title to a black man in 1941; I'll ask the same damn question if you claim the US is just as racist in 2019 as it was in 1945, and that there is no chance Sam Wilson can claim the title now.

And don't falsely accuse me of being white supremacist. I'm Chinese-American.
"Sorry Private Rogers, we meant to inject you with syphillis, but instead you got the super soldier serum. You're now property of the US Army, and you get to see Europe. I hope the shield works out! Now smile for the cameras."
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin
User avatar
FaxModem1
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7700
Joined: 2002-10-30 06:40pm
Location: In a dark reflection of a better world

Re: Thor 4 News (MCU).

Post by FaxModem1 »

Gandalf wrote: 2019-07-27 12:13am
Sidewinder wrote: 2019-07-26 10:09am
NeoGoomba wrote: 2019-07-26 08:11am So does this mean Sidewinder is also pissed that Captain America is now a black dude with wings?
No, I have no problem with a black actor playing Captain America. I will be pissed if you claim the black actor is playing Steve Rogers, as the former is a title, and the latter is a NAME. I will also ask, "Are you that fucking ignorant of history?!" if you claim the US would have no problem giving the title to a black man in 1941; I'll ask the same damn question if you claim the US is just as racist in 2019 as it was in 1945, and that there is no chance Sam Wilson can claim the title now.

And don't falsely accuse me of being white supremacist. I'm Chinese-American.
"Sorry Private Rogers, we meant to inject you with syphillis, but instead you got the super soldier serum. You're now property of the US Army, and you get to see Europe. I hope the shield works out! Now smile for the cameras."
Funnily enough, the superserum, in the comics, was tested out on African Americans before Steve Rogers, as a comment on the Tuskegee experiments. They weren't Captain America, but other patriotic heroes of the time who were considered disposable by the US government due to their race.

Isaiah Bradley AKA Black Captain America

His son, Josiah al Hajj Saddij, AKA Justice


In both cases, they were given different titles to differentiate them from Steve. This is not getting into the other, fake Captain Americas, such as Commie Smasher Captain America, another guy on the serum who was a retcon due to punching Nazis being a bit different from busting unions, so they made it an impostor, or other people who have gotten some version of the formula over the years. Each with their own title.

Of course, no one really blinked an eye that Bruce Banner and James Rhodes changed actors, soap opera style.
Image
User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 16300
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Australia

Re: Thor 4 News (MCU).

Post by Gandalf »

FaxModem1 wrote: 2019-07-27 01:13am Of course, no one really blinked an eye that Bruce Banner and James Rhodes changed actors, soap opera style.
Presumably it's because they didn't commit the sin of changing races.

I still remember when people lost their shit about Heimdall being played by Idris Elba.
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin
Post Reply