THE OotS Thread, Part V

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Napoleon the Clown
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Re: THE OotS Thread, Part V

Post by Napoleon the Clown » 2020-09-11 09:33pm

Ralin wrote:
2020-09-11 03:36pm
Napoleon the Clown wrote:
2020-09-11 03:15pm
He mentioned many comics back that he has no desire to destroy the world because then there'd be nothing left for him to rule over. Or something to that effect.
He said he would have to be really, really bored to destroy the world.

But about how long do you think that would take?
Well, he's got a couple of dwarves and a bunch of goblinoids that he can use to put the "laughter" in "slaughter" so he's probably not getting really, really bored any time soon.
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Re: THE OotS Thread, Part V

Post by Solauren » 2020-09-12 07:51pm

Plot twist - Durkon explains the situtation to Xyklon, he believes it, and when he tells Redcloak 'change of plans', Redcloak dominates Xyklon....
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Re: THE OotS Thread, Part V

Post by Rogue 9 » 2020-09-12 09:20pm

Redcloak would have a really hard time commanding Xykon. Tsukiko's wights were small fry; Xykon is Redcloak's level if not higher, with a lich's turn resistance. He might be able to rebuke him on a good day, but commanding him is something else entirely.
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Re: THE OotS Thread, Part V

Post by Lord Revan » 2020-09-12 09:52pm

Aren't higher undead essentially immune to mind control via combination of inherent resistances and legendary actions, least immune without some serious power behind the caster of the mind control spell.

granted not all liches are alike but IIRC even the weakest of liches are very powerful just by their very nature.
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Re: THE OotS Thread, Part V

Post by Napoleon the Clown » 2020-09-13 12:09am

Redcloak is probably level 17, maybe level 18. I'd be shocked if he's level 19 or 20. As a lich, Xykon has turn resistance of +4. He's an epic level lich, meaning over 20 HD on him. Apparently Durkon pulled off a Greater Dispel Magic on one of Xykon's spells way back in the Azure City arc, pegging him at level 21-22... Based on that comic. Some estimate his level to be 27+ based off using maximized energy drain on Soul Splice V. So this puts Xykon's effective HD for turning as 25-26 at the lowest. RAW, Redcloak literally CANNOT even rebuke Xykon, as even on a check of 22 or higher the cap is Cleric level+4 HD. And the most powerful undead a cleric can turn/command is equal to the cleric's HD. Redcloak even admits to Tsukiko that controlling Xykon requires manipulation, not the methods he used to make her wights kill her (namely command undead). Redcloak definitely doesn't consider it a viable option.

*If* Redcloak is level 20 he *might* have a chance of rebuking Xykon. But if the attempt fails you bet your ass Xykon will murder the shit out of Redcloak. Redcloak's best bet is that Xykon is not told of the situation, doesn't believe it, or doesn't care. Given that Xykon has demonstrated that he's a lot more aware of things than he usually lets on... disbelief is unlikely. Not caring? Fully plausible. He might take enough pleasure in getting the gods' attention that he considers the world ending to be acceptable. Given his stated views on avoiding the afterlife, though... More likely, he would tell Redcloak the plan is off and failure to play ball results in dying horribly and coming back as an undead abomination.


More likely, Xykon will not be told and Team Cleric will get out by the skin of their teeth.
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Re: THE OotS Thread, Part V

Post by Solauren » 2020-09-13 07:36am

Redcloak turned Xyklon into the lich.
Xyklons soul-container is Redcloaks holy symbol.

In theory, he could have slipped a backdoor control in when he turned Xyklon into a lich.

Besides, my 'theory' was meant as a joke.
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Re: THE OotS Thread, Part V

Post by Rogue 9 » 2020-09-13 02:04pm

He could have. Redcloak does have some sort of plan involving the phylactery; recall that he went to the trouble to make a convincing fake for Xykon to stash in his astral fortress so he could hold onto it.
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Re: THE OotS Thread, Part V

Post by Solauren » 2020-09-13 06:36pm

True, and if it was a one time use type thing (as in: I use this, and I'm killed, he's free willed again), I can see not using it until he had to.

After all, if Redcloak takes obvious control of 'Team Evil', he becomes the target, and Xyklon becomes a secondary target.
And then, if Redcloak is killed, a free-willed Xyklon is likely to slaughter every Goblinoid he can (until possibly killing them all) as a 'fuck you' to Redcloak and the Dark One.
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Re: THE OotS Thread, Part V

Post by Ralin » 2020-09-13 07:35pm

Solauren wrote:
2020-09-13 07:36am
Redcloak turned Xyklon into the lich.
Something that isn't possible according to the rules, so we're into house rule territory already

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Re: THE OotS Thread, Part V

Post by Rogue 9 » 2020-09-13 08:03pm

Ralin wrote:
2020-09-13 07:35pm
Solauren wrote:
2020-09-13 07:36am
Redcloak turned Xyklon into the lich.
Something that isn't possible according to the rules, so we're into house rule territory already
That's not quite right. Redcloak instructed Xykon on the process; he didn't do it with create undead or whatever.
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Re: THE OotS Thread, Part V

Post by Ralin » 2020-09-13 08:11pm

Rogue 9 wrote:
2020-09-13 08:03pm
Ralin wrote:
2020-09-13 07:35pm
Solauren wrote:
2020-09-13 07:36am
Redcloak turned Xyklon into the lich.
Something that isn't possible according to the rules, so we're into house rule territory already
That's not quite right. Redcloak instructed Xykon on the process; he didn't do it with create undead or whatever.
Been several years, but Start of Darkness had Redcloak creating/partially creating the phylactery and the SRD description specifies the prospective lich has to do it personally. It came up on conversation with a friend once. I'd look it up, but I'm on my phone at the moment.

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Re: THE OotS Thread, Part V

Post by Lord Revan » 2020-09-13 09:42pm

Though to be it seemed that Xyklon thinks he's smarter then he actually is so it might be that Redcloak prefers to manipulate Xyklon thru tricks because that's the more reliable method while magical domination is something that could fail and bite Redcloak in the arse badly. So any magical trick Redcloak has isn't gonna be used if there's no choice.

After all Xyklon isn't totally brainless (at least figuratively being a skeletal lich he might not have a literal brain after all) so manipulating him to thru his weak point of ego via non-magical means might much safer then having him resist your magical control and figuring out you're no longer of worth to him but a threat instead.
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Re: THE OotS Thread, Part V

Post by Ralin » 2020-09-13 09:50pm

Which has its own problems, since it doesn't stop Xykon from freely murdering or throwing away however many goblins he feels like that day. And also Xykon is more aware than he usually lets on.

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Re: THE OotS Thread, Part V

Post by Solauren » 2020-09-13 09:52pm

Yes.

And even a built in backdoor control could be defeated, and therefore backfire. So better to use it as a last resort.

Say to help sieze the Gate, win the campaign, and then have Xyklon go meet the Snarl in person.
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Re: THE OotS Thread, Part V

Post by Napoleon the Clown » 2020-09-13 11:03pm

I could very well see Redcloak wanting to hang onto Xykon's actual phylactery so he can toss it into a Snarl Rift. It's a pretty safe bet that, once Redcloak's accomplished what the Dark One wants, he's willing to risk getting killed by a cheesed-off lich.
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Re: THE OotS Thread, Part V

Post by Rogue 9 » 2020-09-14 05:16pm

Once the ritual is completed, Xykon is going to realize pretty quick that he's not controlling the Gate. Once that happens, he's going to kill everything in sight. Redcloak knows that; the phylactery has to be involved in his contingency for it.
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Re: THE OotS Thread, Part V

Post by Ralin » 2020-09-21 01:59pm

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1215.html

Well, if Durkon is going to cast Word of Recall or something now's the time.

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Re: THE OotS Thread, Part V

Post by Rogue 9 » 2020-09-21 04:48pm

Ralin wrote:
2020-09-21 01:59pm
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1215.html

Well, if Durkon is going to cast Word of Recall or something now's the time.
If he had that he'd have done it already. He doesn't really have a sanctuary to have attuned the spell to, either.
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Re: THE OotS Thread, Part V

Post by Solauren » 2020-09-21 05:44pm

Ouch, that's going to cause a headache.
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Re: THE OotS Thread, Part V

Post by Crossroads Inc. » 2020-09-22 02:29pm

I am not sure I am going to like this...

So far EVERY encounter with Xykon has typically ended with a Mc Guffin saving the day.
The first time, the gate exploded when Roy just hurled Xykon in by surprise.
Second, well Azure City was a hot mess, and they never really engaged him.
Third encounter....if you can call it that, was Vaarsuvius getting their asses handed to them.
Fourth encounter, Well they got a Gate to blow up AGAIN, and Monster in the box basically talked them out of direct engagement...

This time? Well if past history is any guide... I'd normally say they are going to get their asses handed to them.. and saved by a Mc Guffin.
But... Depending on just how determined Redcloak is, he could push his lucky and REALLY push Xykon into killing them for good. Which, Narrative Causality would then dictate the rest of the Order showing up to balance things, or some other Mc Guffin to "save the day"

Third option... Xykon could just get bored, as he sometimes does, and leave to do something else.
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Re: THE OotS Thread, Part V

Post by LadyTevar » 2020-09-23 02:11pm

Crossroads Inc. wrote:
2020-09-22 02:29pm
I am not sure I am going to like this...

So far EVERY encounter with Xykon has typically ended with a Mc Guffin saving the day.
The first time, the gate exploded when Roy just hurled Xykon in by surprise.
Second, well Azure City was a hot mess, and they never really engaged him.
Third encounter....if you can call it that, was Vaarsuvius getting their asses handed to them.
Fourth encounter, Well they got a Gate to blow up AGAIN, and Monster in the box basically talked them out of direct engagement...

This time? Well if past history is any guide... I'd normally say they are going to get their asses handed to them.. and saved by a Mc Guffin.
But... Depending on just how determined Redcloak is, he could push his lucky and REALLY push Xykon into killing them for good. Which, Narrative Causality would then dictate the rest of the Order showing up to balance things, or some other Mc Guffin to "save the day"

Third option... Xykon could just get bored, as he sometimes does, and leave to do something else.
The dwarves fell into the ravine where all the doors are, and the Order is on the ridge above the ravine, most likely seeing a Fireball spell go off. They will investigate. The Order will be forced to retreat into a random door, which will Just Happen to be the RIGHT DOOR.
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Re: THE OotS Thread, Part V

Post by Bedlam » 2020-09-24 03:04am

LadyTevar wrote:
2020-09-23 02:11pm
The dwarves fell into the ravine where all the doors are, and the Order is on the ridge above the ravine, most likely seeing a Fireball spell go off. They will investigate. The Order will be forced to retreat into a random door, which will Just Happen to be the RIGHT DOOR.
I'm fairly sure there isn't a 'right door' the whole dungeon complex is a distraction to keep invaders away from the real gate. No idea where / what it actually is through, it might be something to do with the statue as it's had a lot of attention brought to to.

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Re: THE OotS Thread, Part V

Post by Crazedwraith » 2020-09-24 10:30am

I wouldn't be surprised, especially after Nale, if Xykon didn't go down surprisingly early in the book (maybe even this fight?)and the snarl and consolidated evil were the final bosses.

MitD needs wrapping up and the fiends have two more holds on V that need to be used up at some point as well.
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Re: THE OotS Thread, Part V

Post by Solauren » 2020-09-24 11:13am

Dungeon Complex:
Wouldn't surprise me to learn that the 'door' was hidden somewhere that required a rogue to find it. Something 'Team Evil' clearly lacks.

It also wouldn't surprise me if you had to defeat ALL the Dungeons before you could get to it.

i.e Go in each one, your Rogue finds a secret switch. It's switch #1 of how many doors there are.
When they are all thrown, the Snarl-Gate is revealed.
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Re: THE OotS Thread, Part V

Post by LadyTevar » 2020-09-24 02:40pm

Solauren wrote:
2020-09-24 11:13am
Dungeon Complex:
Wouldn't surprise me to learn that the 'door' was hidden somewhere that required a rogue to find it. Something 'Team Evil' clearly lacks.

It also wouldn't surprise me if you had to defeat ALL the Dungeons before you could get to it.

i.e Go in each one, your Rogue finds a secret switch. It's switch #1 of how many doors there are.
When they are all thrown, the Snarl-Gate is revealed.
I don't know about the Switches... but remember she built this because the Dwarf respected Strength. The toughest monsters, to test those searching.
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