[Wheel o' Time] Why aren't Channelers the majority?

[Crom]

I was thinking about the argument why Force manipulation is not a genetically inherited trait, and I started to wonder why Channelers in WoT are not the majority in the world?

I mean, even before the men-go-crazy phenomenon, they should have pretty much bred everyone else out of the gene pool. These guys can teleport and erase you from the timeline so they can have sex with your now virgin wife.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I was thinking about the argument why Force manipulation is not a genetically inherited trait, and I started to wonder why Channelers in WoT are not the majority in the world?

I mean, even before the men-go-crazy phenomenon, they should have pretty much bred everyone else out of the gene pool. These guys can teleport and erase you from the timeline so they can have sex with your now virgin wife.

There's a few possibilities;
1. Having channeler ancestors doesn't guarantee that you'll be one.
2. Having the talent and being able to train aren't necessarily linked in a post-breaking world. In fact they're discovering that the number of men and women who can channel is MUCH higher than they thought.
3. Channeling ability during the breaking of the world made you a target. Not alot of them survived to pass on their genes.

Also, if you'll recall, the world pre-breaking had 'standing flows' as a sort of wireless transmission of power, which allowed ANYONE to use ang'reals, not just channelers.

[Gaidin]

2. Having the talent and being able to train aren't necessarily linked in a post-breaking world. In fact they're discovering that the number of men and women who can channel is MUCH higher than they thought.

Addendum: The only channelers the White Tower sought out and forced to learn were the ones that had the talent for it. Those that could learn were volunteer only and most had to travel to the White Tower just to see if they could channel(unless an Aes Sedai happened to be in their town to test them). If they couldn't...well...too bad, time to go home. That's a big gamble for any lower to middle class person in a medieval setting.

[Crom]

There's a few possibilities;
1. Having channeler ancestors doesn't guarantee that you'll be one.
2. Having the talent and being able to train aren't necessarily linked in a post-breaking world. In fact they're discovering that the number of men and women who can channel is MUCH higher than they thought.
3. Channeling ability during the breaking of the world made you a target. Not alot of them survived to pass on their genes.

Also, if you'll recall, the world pre-breaking had 'standing flows' as a sort of wireless transmission of power, which allowed ANYONE to use ang'reals, not just channelers.

The only thing that seems plausible to me is #1, because there should be practically no one alive at the contemporary timeline who does not carry the channeler genes.

I'm thinking that prior to the Age of Super-Awesome, most of the non-channeling humans must have been winnowed out. If you start in a barbaric setting and there's a guy who can throw around tactical nukes with his mind, he's definitely going to get all the ladies.

[Gaidin]

All three are actually quite feasible regardless. The idea of channeling being genetic is only a theory on the part of the Whites and never really proved or demonstrated in any acceptable fashion. The talent and the ability have never really been linked past "You both can channel, just to different degrees". As for the third....while the White Tower had a nice power base until the Trolloc Wars...two words come to mind: white and cloak. They also had a crapton of political fallout with Artur Hawkwing and kept to their island territory wise ever since. There no real canonical reason why the answer isn't 'All of the above'.

[Crom]

All three are actually quite feasible regardless. The idea of channeling being genetic is only a theory on the part of the Whites and never really proved or demonstrated in any acceptable fashion. The talent and the ability have never really been linked past "You both can channel, just to different degrees". As for the third....while the White Tower had a nice power base until the Trolloc Wars...two words come to mind: white and cloak. They also had a crapton of political fallout with Artur Hawkwing and kept to their island territory wise ever since. There no real canonical reason why the answer isn't 'All of the above'.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the Channelers should have become the dominant ethnic group long before the events of the Breaking of the World and stuff like that.

[Gaidin]

Well, they can probably be considered that in the Land of Madness(see: southern continent) but I think that place is a result of the War of Power.

As far as the major continents, I'm not sure I can ever see them as an ethnic group of any sort because by the time they find out they can channel they've already identified with some sort of ethnic group or upbringing.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Channeling seems to transcend ethnicity, though. For female channelers we've seen not just women from the kingdoms, but also Aiel, Sea Folk, Borderlanders, and even Sul'dam and A'dam. They're everywhere, which indicates (to me) that channeling ability WAS a widespread genetic trait prior to the Breaking. Now, not everyone can channel because the ability (while present) is dormant or untrained in the vast majority of cases.

[Guardsman Bass]

Perhaps it's just a complex genetic phenomena of sorts; after all, we haven't seen many intergenerational channeling families for the most part (although maybe Nynaeve was an exception; it may have been mentioned that her mother probably had the spark too).

While technically the reason for the shrinking of the channeling pool by the Whites is only speculation, it does seem to make a kind of sense; Aes Sedai don't generally have children, and it is mentioned (I think) near the beginning of the book that one of the reasons why there are so many channelers in the Two Rivers is because the area is in an out-of-the-way place where no Aes Sedai have really traveled or recruited for almost 2,000 years.

I think the Wheel of Time Encyclopedia has something to say on this, but I don't have a copy on it.

Weird Side Note, but I looked at WOTmania's Tor Questions of the Week, and Robert Jordan apparently said that the appearance of channelling signaled the end of the age previous to the Age of Legends (the Age just before the Wheel of Time's Age). Then add in the Mercedes-Benz hood ornament in Tear . .. .

[Guardsman Bass]

You know what is limiting this a bit? We have no idea what the channeling percentage is among the Seanchan, Aiel, Sharans, Sea Folk, or Mradness People. That would be useful; according to the WoT Encyclopedia, the Sharans breed their channellers, and it wouldn't surprise me if the Seanchan bred the damanes too.

[Typhonis 1]

Also if it is genetic you have the male channelers being killed. Remeber half the source ws tainted till Rand cleared it.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Also if it is genetic you have the male channelers being killed. Remeber half the source ws tainted till Rand cleared it.

True, but while channeling the One Power inevitably causes madness in men, merely carrying the gene does not. Once the Black Tower got going, men into middle age showed up and began developing their channeling ability. If just having the potential for channeling caused madness, they would've gone nuts long ago.

Think of it like HIV/AIDS. The Asha'man had HIV, they don't get AIDS until they start training.

[Guardsman Bass]

That's the thing. While maybe 1% of the population has the ability to learn how to channel, only a small fraction of those has the "spark" - meaning that they naturally start channelling whether they like it or not. Nynaeve had the "spark", although I don't think Egwene did, nor Elayne.

[Guardsman Bass]

Forgot my point. What that means is that most men with the ability to channel Saidar simply wouldn't do so, since no one would be training them. That means that they would blissfully pass the genes for channeling it on to their families.

[Alex Moon]

Some of the other fluff written by Jordan an coauthors suggests that channellers were never more than 2-3% of the population.

During the Age of Legends, channellers are likely to breed only with other channellers, because of the lifespan differences and possibly a desire to have someone who could understand what you had to deal with. Combine that with a low birthrate, and you wouldn't see much growth compared to the general population. After the Breaking, the lack of male channellers means that any man carrying some of the genes necessary for channelling would be eeking out a living among the general population, while the White Tower sucked up every girl with potential that they could find. Those that didn't make the shawl ended up in the Kin, moving every few years in order to prevent people from noticing thier agelessness. That's not exactly a life that encourages children.

[Gaidin]

That's the thing. While maybe 1% of the population has the ability to learn how to channel, only a small fraction of those has the "spark" - meaning that they naturally start channelling whether they like it or not. Nynaeve had the "spark", although I don't think Egwene did, nor Elayne.

They did have the spark. They just weren'tone of the wilders that the Tower couldn't get a hold of before they channeled. Nynaeve was a wilder.

[Stormbringer]

You know what is limiting this a bit? We have no idea what the channeling percentage is among the Seanchan, Aiel, Sharans, Sea Folk, or Mradness People. That would be useful; according to the WoT Encyclopedia, the Sharans breed their channellers, and it wouldn't surprise me if the Seanchan bred the damanes too.

The Seanchan most definitely do not. Males are killed on discovery and female channelers are kept essentially celibate. Any one that gets one pregnant is liable for a capital crime.

Some of the other fluff written by Jordan an coauthors suggests that channellers were never more than 2-3% of the population.

According to interview, 4-5% of the total population in the Age of Legends and never more than 3% post-Breaking.

[Napoleon the Clown]

For one, you need to learn to channel before it becomes especially helpful. Most of the people who can learn have to actually be taught to channel. And a full three fourths of those born with the spark die if they don't receive training. Channelers historically gathered into fairly exclusive groups, where they were separate from the normal people.

They tended to be small groups that didn't breed particularly quickly. And even during the Age of Legends a lot of people were a bit nervous around the Aes Sedai, as they wielded such great power. Post-Breaking, people were even more wary of channelers. So they never really spread their seed among the general populace. The wealthy upper-class, so to speak. They never bred faster than the general populace, so they stayed right around 5%.

Think of it like this: There are people out there who are excellent runners. With training, they can do amazing things, things that get them lovers and that could have helped them survive in the wild. And then there's the few who don't even need to train, they just naturally can outrun even dedicated runners. Massive advantage, should they decide to utilize it, but most humans can't touch these abilities, regardless of how hard they try. Two track and field stars will probably produce children that are above average runners. There's a definite genetic factor in a lot of physical abilities.


Of course, there's always the possibility that it isn't entirely genetic, that it has a multitude of other factors. Such is often the case, in reality.

Stupid short answer: It's just a fantasy series, guys. Don't over think it. lol



And Egwene, at least, was born with the spark. Moiraine stated as much, IIRC, and in one of the alternate realities Rand witnesses while attempting to use the Portal Stones Egwene died from learning to channel on her own. I think Elayne was also stated as having the spark, but I'm going purely off memory.

[Lord of the Abyss]

Weird Side Note, but I looked at WOTmania's Tor Questions of the Week, and Robert Jordan apparently said that the appearance of channelling signaled the end of the age previous to the Age of Legends (the Age just before the Wheel of Time's Age). Then add in the Mercedes-Benz hood ornament in Tear . .. .

I also recall the mention of the "giants Merck and Mosk, who fought each other with spears tipped with pieces of the Sun". Sounds like the Cold War went hot in their timeline.

It occurs to me that another explanation for channeling not being universal is that it could be linked with a variety of genetic problems. For example, if the ability involves recessive genes and a double dose of the wrong recessives causes birth defects.

[Guardsman Bass]

You know what is limiting this a bit? We have no idea what the channeling percentage is among the Seanchan, Aiel, Sharans, Sea Folk, or Mradness People. That would be useful; according to the WoT Encyclopedia, the Sharans breed their channellers, and it wouldn't surprise me if the Seanchan bred the damanes too.

The Seanchan most definitely do not. Males are killed on discovery and female channelers are kept essentially celibate. Any one that gets one pregnant is liable for a capital crime.

Ah, forgot about that. It's kind of surprising, though, when you figure that they consider the Damane to be little more than animals; I'm surprised they don't breed them.

I almost wonder if the decline in its frequency via means like the ones discussed above (the Aes Sedai and the like) is the Wheel's way of removing channelling ability from the populace. There have been eras in the Wheel of Time-verse where nobody had any idea about the One Power or how to use it.

[Guardsman Bass]

That's the thing. While maybe 1% of the population has the ability to learn how to channel, only a small fraction of those has the "spark" - meaning that they naturally start channelling whether they like it or not. Nynaeve had the "spark", although I don't think Egwene did, nor Elayne.

They did have the spark. They just weren'tone of the wilders that the Tower couldn't get a hold of before they channeled. Nynaeve was a wilder.

I remembered Nynaeve had it, since she also had a "block" (anger) designed to keep her from accidently killing herself with Saidar (which actually makes her a minority, IIRC; most untrained "spark" channelers end up killing themselves accidently by a certain age if not caught). Forgot about Elayne and Egwene having it; thanks for the reminder.

[Minischoles]

According to 'The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Timer' (short encyclopedia published around the 6th or 7th book i believe), it states that the ability to channel was a genetic recessive, so only 2 or 3 percent of the population could channel, most being fairly weak as well. So already you've got a low base within the population for the gene itself, but with it being recessive you need 2 carriers potentially to pass it on, as well as the chance of acquiring it through a random mutation.
Now while in the Age of Legends the Aes Sedai had a very loose organisation, they were very spread out across the world, and regularly tested anyone of age everywhere. It was considered a very great honor to be able to channel, so while testing was not mandatory, there weren't many that would pass up the oppurtunity to be tested. So you've got an almost 100% catch rate of those that can channel, actively seeking out and testing anyone that potentially can.

This makes a great difference to the current way, where Aes Sedai are feared and distrusted and widespread testing is not carried out. The female Aes Sedai take in those that come to them, or happen to get picked up by a passing Aes Sedai, but that means they miss a huge percentage of those who both have the ability inborn and those that can be trained to it.
Males were low, since those who were born to it either died from the madness or sickness, or were hunted down and gentled. Of those that could learn, how would they be tested for? To see just how many can actually be found you need to look at the first organisation in the WOTverse that actually actively sought out and tested people, and thats the Asha'man. I believe its within a year they have over 600 channelers found, with them going into what appears to be every village they can find and testing those who decide they want to follow the Dragon Reborn.


So mainly it seems because the majority of Aes Sedai were very lazy women, they didn't bother actively searching, they just let their numbers dwindle and believed they had simply bred it out instead of just being so lazy they never found a huge number of those who could channel. Not surprising given Jordan's general view on women that he wrote the women Aes Sedai as almost completely incompetent.

[Darth Hoth]

You know what is limiting this a bit? We have no idea what the channeling percentage is among the Seanchan, Aiel, Sharans, Sea Folk, or Mradness People. That would be useful; according to the WoT Encyclopedia, the Sharans breed their channellers, and it wouldn't surprise me if the Seanchan bred the damanes too.

The Seanchan most definitely do not. Males are killed on discovery and female channelers are kept essentially celibate. Any one that gets one pregnant is liable for a capital crime.

Ah, forgot about that. It's kind of surprising, though, when you figure that they consider the Damane to be little more than animals; I'm surprised they don't breed them.

In one of the later books (Mat staying with Tuon and Tylin (sp?) - I cannot source it more exactly, it was a while since I read it) - Tuon mentions that intercourse with damane is considered to be bestiality, which is perhaps not too surprising given the stigma associated with Channelling there and their treatment of channellers as literal beasts of burden. It appears that for all intents and purposes, they consider them a different species than ordinary Man. Who would they breed them with, when they put all male wizards to death? A special caste of slaves raised from birth for that unclean task? It would be like breeding humans with monkeys for us - it can (probably) be done, but you would be hated by most everyone for trying and have a hell of a time finding volunteers for any large programme - only more so there, with their Samuraian code.