A goofy thread that actually makes some sense.

[consequences]

They get hit by shots that don't obliterate the surrounding area, and are moved by said attacks. Their punches do not cause air pressure waves that tear apart everything in front of them.

[JodoForce]

Yet if said blast crashes into the earth, the whole planet is doomed

Such is DBZ physics. Deal with it.

[consequences]

Actually, they only freak out about the planet being destroyed on rare occasions, therefore, their normal crap doesn't endanger the planet. Deal with it.

[Connor MacLeod]

100 Gs would also be the maximum possible vector change he could induce any given second, I'd say it has great relevance. Especially given that a proton torpedo can do 90000 Gs to track his ass. And the TF battleship was able to pick off R2s at range on the Naboo cruiser, Goku's just a bit bigger, and has no known ECM systems protecting his ass.

What makes you think the missiles wouldn't destroy any normal DBZer?
Even if they are capable of tossing off a Planet killing or planet destroying attack with the accompanying energy requirement, that does not prove they can resist those attacks. In fact, if they were able to shrug off planet-killing levels of energy, they would typically have to generate that much in a battle to harm one another (which would be catstrophic on a planet.)

The fact that planets (usually earth) do not get wasted as a result of these battles (either by planet killing, or destroying) proves that. For that matter, planet killing energy levels (or anything approaching that). To get at what I am talking about, refer to asteroid impact effects on the Earth's enviroment and the chart with the given energy levels. 1e5 to 1e6 megatons worth of energy should be inflicting some farily noticible and long-lasting effects alone.

This was at the moment when 100 Gs worth of gravity room was nearly killing him, and he was barely able to move against it, I'd say survival is a good reason to go at full steam, wouldn't you?

It should be noted that before this, Goku trained at the Kai's planet in a gravity field under twenty gravities (he trained under higher gravities on his way to Namek, topping out at 100 g's IIRC)

This isn't relevant in later sagas (although even then they're still training under gravity fields well under 1000 g's - whether or not this changes later I dont know.), but it proves early on that the characters can withstand the recoil of a DET planet shattering blast is bullshit. Had any character been able to shatter moons or planets prior to this by generating the required energy themselves and be able to counteract the force the recoil of such a blast would impart to their bodies, they would have NO trouble at all moving in hundreds of g's, much less ten's of gees. We could even assume its an order of magnitude or two higher, and still have that problem (we'd be requiring MILLIONS of gravities to compensate for the recoil. And if they could generate that, why would Vegeta bother training under a mere 150 gravities, as a Super Saiyan no less?)

This still works even if we assume there is some outside force NOT connected to the person itself propelling or generating the blast (akin to the Force, although the Series makes it quite evident that the energy is in fact inside the person, not an external thing - though they can "absorb" energy from other sources - Goku doing so for the Spirit Bomb, for example.), since they would STILL be required to compensate for the recoil, and this "force" doing so would be applicable to their bodies just as well to any energy blasts.

This also applies to the DB incident where Roshi destroys the moon. In short, however they destroy planets, its NOT a DET event.

[Connor MacLeod]

And as you describe it, this scene would have no relevance to Goku's acceleration in the Buu saga, since he has obviously gone way up in power since then--Vegeta constantly trained in a 500G room in the Buu saga, moving normally, and he is Goku's inferior.

If you're referring to the Capsule Corporation gravity room (English episode name, "Take Flight Videl"), it was only 150 gravitie, which was according to him "A Man's training level" and Vegeta was Super Saiyan at the time. In a later episode ("Vegeta Attacks"), he told his opponent that he might have an advantage under 500 times gravity, but that Vegeta "barely felt" ten times earth's normal gravity. Both of these ARE in the Buu saga, I might remind you.

Do you even BOTHER to check up on your sources, or are you attempting to rely entirely upon memory? You seem to make alot of claims without backing them up with references (which is ironic, since it wasnt all that long ago you were attempting to lecture ME on my methods, you hypocritical fanwhore.)

[Connor MacLeod]

Yet if said blast crashes into the earth, the whole planet is doomed

Such is DBZ physics. Deal with it.

I see, so we must completely ignore physics when its inconsistent with DBZ fanwhoring, yet you still want to CLAIM it was a DET event? If the best you can come up with is "we must ignore regular scienc because DBZ doesn't obey our laws of physics" you have violated suspension of disbelief (you know, what I was being criticized by you on page one as doing because I questioned the energy figures, you fucking hypocrite?

I suggest if you don't know what "suspension of disbelief" is, you check Mike's "site information" again (scroll down along the bottom of the introduction page)
A key part of suspension of disbelief is treating it not only as if it happened in real life, but also applying real-life science to that analysis.

[Connor MacLeod]

Your happy little theory ignores the fact the FRIEZA HELD BACK. He even states: "Damn, I held back too much energy." IIRC, Frieza destroyed Namek's core, which initiated a chain reaction that destroyed the planet completely five minutes later.

Don't forget to mention how easily Freezer destroyed Vegeta. He launched a small ball of energy (which he shows no visible strain or effort in producing) that grew larger as it closed distance to the planet.

It then easily dug some distance into the planet before it detonated, though I don't recall how big Vegeta's remains where (if any were left)

Freezer did the deed while in his weakest form

Which episode name/number was this? I wish to check this out for myself, especially based on your example.

[consequences]

Agreed on all counts Connor, and its nice not to be alone facing the DBZ horde for once. I'm being too nice in assuming that a gigaton range hit won't kill them, but I'm presuming they'll be able to shield against those hits.

[SAMAS]

They get hit by shots that don't obliterate the surrounding area, and are moved by said attacks. Their punches do not cause air pressure waves that tear apart everything in front of them.

And in yet other episodes, they are often left floating unharmed in the middle of a crater several miles wide. You might remember Nappa doing this roughly thirty seconds after landing on Earth.

Oh, and Goku could knock an ogre on his ass with the pressure from his hands way back when he got lost in Hell going down Snake Way.

And let's not forget the times any given fighter has been knocked through hills, mesas, and mountains, and only come up pissed.

[SAMAS]

Your happy little theory ignores the fact the FRIEZA HELD BACK. He even states: "Damn, I held back too much energy." IIRC, Frieza destroyed Namek's core, which initiated a chain reaction that destroyed the planet completely five minutes later.

Don't forget to mention how easily Freezer destroyed Vegeta. He launched a small ball of energy (which he shows no visible strain or effort in producing) that grew larger as it closed distance to the planet.

It then easily dug some distance into the planet before it detonated, though I don't recall how big Vegeta's remains where (if any were left)

Freezer did the deed while in his weakest form

Which episode name/number was this? I wish to check this out for myself, especially based on your example.

Which episode of the show, I don't know. They show it at least twice, though.

Luckily, they show it again in both the Bardock Saga and Movie 5, the first appearance of Cooler.

[SAMAS]

The Saiyajin sees full moon, turns Ape rule makes no mention of size or shape of the moon in question. Unless the writer comes out and says "it has to be at least 200 km in diameter and roughly spherical in shape", we have to presume that any moon orbitting the planet in question could potentially do it.

I think something like that can be assumed by default.

More like, it would have to be large enough to be seen on the planet.

Oh, and the Moon did get blown up and wished back with the Dragon Balls. It was destroyed way back in Goku's first Tenka-ichi Budokai, and was wished back sometime after Goku defeated Piccolo Daimaoh.

[consequences]

Oh, and the Moon did get blown up and wished back with the Dragon Balls. It was destroyed way back in Goku's first Tenka-ichi Budokai, and was wished back sometime after Goku defeated Piccolo Daimaoh.

Which means the Z fighters are as stupid as I've been demeaning them to be. and of course it has to be large enough to be seen, its seeing it that triggers the transformation.

And a crater several miles wide, gee, that takes what, a gigaton or two?

Fighter tougher than rocks, absolutely, fighter tougher than mountains, sure, fighter tougher than planet? Fuck no. Every time they go 'oh no, that attack will destroy the planet' they get fucked if the attack lands.
And they can't survive a planet exploding, as evidenced by Majin Buu finally taking out the Earth excessively, and killing everyone Goku didn't grab.

[Hamel]

Fighter tougher than rocks, absolutely, fighter tougher than mountains, sure, fighter tougher than planet? Fuck no. Every time they go 'oh no, that attack will destroy the planet' they get fucked if the attack lands.

Because the attack is far more than is necessary to destroy the planet.

And they can't survive a planet exploding, as evidenced by Majin Buu finally taking out the Earth excessively, and killing everyone Goku didn't grab.

They would not be able to survive the blast energy from majin buu. A GRAVELY injured Freezer survived namek's destruction, and Freezer is many orders of magnitude weaker than Buu is. Therefore, we know DBZ fighters can withstand a planet's explosion.

What the saiyans cannot survive is lack of oxygen in space. Whether Gohan, Piccolo, Goten, and Trunks died by Buu's energy or the lack of oxygen in space is unknown, but seeing as how they were passed out and unable to raise their PLs to any level, it would be likely that they died from the energy or the planet's explosion itself.

[Yogi]

So the entire basis of the objection is that firing planet killing blasts violate the rules of physics?

Wht sci-fi fantasy environment DOESN'T violate the rules of physics. Goku & co. can do their outragous things the same way Superman, Alucard, Yoda, and Ranma all do things that spit on the laws of physics.

Unless you find some way to say that Goku violates the laws of physics to a greater extent than all the other Anime, Comic book, Sci-fi, Fantasy, and Video Game people, then you'll have to accept the fact that he does what he does.

And if you still don't accept it, at least give reasons why The DBZers are deliberatly holding back in terms of speed and power when their lives, and at times the lives of everyone on that planet/galaxy/universen are on the line?

[consequences]

Lets try one more time before I get back to the herding of cats as a more profitable hobby.

They destroy planets, yes. They destroy planets with DET, fuck no. The observable facts do not bear it out, and fewer rules are broken by not using DET.
The simplest way for it to happen is not to use DET, and enable a dozen other unknown effects to account for the impossibilities seen, but to have one unknown chain reaction that causes the effect in the first place.

Let's go down a quick list of DET related impossibilities.
1: Fighters can in no way generate that much energy from their own bodies.
2: No Recoil
3: Lack of phenomena associated with high energy events
4: Lack of residual heat from attack passing by, or impacting flash-frying all normal humans in area
5: Lack of moon falling on/blasting into/ turning to energy and frying the earth
6: Completely inconsistent expectations of damage to target from observed effects on surroundings


List of chain reaction problems:
1: Basic mechanism unknown, kind of like that in ST phasers

[Hamel]

You keep appealing to the 'it can't be DET because it doesn't follow the laws of physics' argument

Well, no fucking shit it doesn't follow the laws of physics

Why don't you just deal with the facts presented to you?

[consequences]

Because fucking DET is to difficult to account for with the observed facts. Because using another mechanism is easier, and accounts for the problems that result from a DET event.
Because we are supposed to observe what fucking occurs, and draw conclusions from what we see, not say "I think its DET, so I'm going to ignore all available evidence to the contrary".
Because I actually consider the facts in any given situation, rather than making assumptions favorable to the position I want to adopt.
Because I despise stupidity.
To give you an idea, I constantly argue with the Weberites on this board. I challenge their assumptions every chance I get. And yet I have every book ever written by Weber, as well as those he co-authored, and I have read them all repeatedly. I have talked with the author, and think he's a great guy. I do my best to divorce all personal feeling from any argument I am in, which is a good thing, because otherwise you would have no-one to act as a consistent reality check.

[Connor MacLeod]

So the best you can come up with is "we're going to ignore science, but still act like it can be observed as if we WERE using real life principles." Yeah, that's REALLY logical analysis there, guys.

If DBZ physics are not like RL physics, we cannot apply RL physics to analyze DBZ. That means any effort to extract calculations will FAIL. Which makes any DBZ related discussion pointless. You can't have it both ways.

Its quite obvious that none of you are interested in any sort of logical debate, but simply want to hang onto your fan-wanking delusions no matter how illogical you must become.

If the best you can come up with is this, you have lost. Concession accepted.

[Hamel]

Its quite obvious that none of you are interested in any sort of logical debate, but simply want to hang onto your fan-wanking delusions no matter how illogical you must become.

Bring some logic to the table.

So far you've just whined and whined and tried to downplay what you saw with your own eyes.

If the best you can come up with is this, you have lost. Concession accepted.

No, we've already taken your concession. Too bad.

[consequences]

I have brought logic to the table, you ignored it. Connor was entirely justified in his posts.

[Connor MacLeod]

I'm laughing here. I really am. The best you fanwhores can come up with is screaming "They destroyed a planet! They MUST HAVE THE ENERGY TO DO SO!" without really investigating the incident in any detail. You also ignore the fact we DO Have precedents for planet destruction being non-DET effects (Frieza destroying Namek, at least)

None of you have made any effort to actually bring evidence forward that they CAN deal with the recoil of such claimed energy levels, simply citing they "must be able to." You criticize me as being illogical, ignorant of proper analyitical method, and all other sorts of Ad Hominems, all in an effort to deflect attention from the flimsy supports to your bullshit arguments.

"Logic" to a DBZ fanwhore must be "scream the same poitn over and over without backing it up and hope the opposition gets tired."

I repeat, concession accepted.

[Connor MacLeod]

Its quite obvious that none of you are interested in any sort of logical debate, but simply want to hang onto your fan-wanking delusions no matter how illogical you must become.

Bring some logic to the table.

I see. So momentum and recoil really ARE irrelevant? Care to prove this, asshole?

So far you've just whined and whined and tried to downplay what you saw with your own eyes.

Pot calling the kettle black. You're the ones refusing to explain away the recoil issue, resorting instead to simply screaming that it MUST be DET just because they destroyed a planet.

Besides which, its a strawman. I said nothing about them not being able to destroy planets. I've simply pointed out that its impossible for it to be a DET event. You're the ones who keep assuming that any planet killing incident must be a DET event.

So then burden of proof is on the fanwhores: Prove that DBZ characters can generate the required force to negate the recoil of a Planet or moon-shattering blast, and also prove why these same characters are still limited by gravity fields orders of magnitude weaker.

You really can't, but it will be amusing watching you fanwhores do your matrix-style dodges to avoid the facts.

[JodoForce]

I concede that if DBZ follows our world's physics it takes too much explaining to explain away the inconsistencies between DET and effects on the surroundings.

However, it is obvious that DBZ was never written with the intent of following real-world physics. In fact, the author probably doesn't have enough knowledge of physics to make the series follow real word physics if he wanted to.

[Yogi]

First, a bit on the black/white fallacies being presented. It seems that there are people who beleive that because something should violate the laws of physics, that it will then be impossible to analyze. Observe that whereas FTL travel is impossible, it is nevertheless possible to compare the speeds of travel between diffrent types of FTL drives. Second, note that while Yoda lifting and moving various large objects (without recoil, I might add) with the force is impossible, people nevertheless attempt to calculate how much he can lift with his mind. This does not even being into the question on how he generates that much power.

While the detractors win nice little Captain Obvious awards for noticing that Dragonball Z violates the laws of physics, I might wonder why they decide to attack this particular instance of physical impossibility, as opposed to other similarly impossible things (from vampires summoning demon hounds, to men who turn into women when splashed with cold water, to young boys who turn into 50 foot tall apes when they see the full moon etc. etc.)

[JodoForce]

Of course, neither was Star Wars and Star Trek, but the franchises have since then at least made an effort to reconcile the events in the shows with real life physics after the fact by publishing design documents and using technobabble to explain away the problems

Thus when we are dealing with SW we have some idea of how the inconsistencies should be explained away--i.e. whether to invalidate DET or to use non-existent technology to explain away the problems

We don't have any such documents for DBZ because the author never intended to reconcile DBZ with real world physics.

However I have a strong hunch that the author intends the DBZ energy blasts to destroy via DET (once you manage to explain to him what DET is ) and the thought of a chain reaction has never even crossed his mind.

In fact if I know his address and know Japanese, I'm going to write him now and start fleshing out the technical manual for DBZ And I bet a million dolloars the results won't be in Connor's favor