Captain America: Civil War thread

[FaxModem1]

Why would Cap want to save Bucky? Come on, you can't be THAT naive. Not only is there 'survivors guilt' on Cap's part, for all that Bucky went thru with Hydra, there's also the sheer fact that Cap is no longer ALONE. Like Cap, Bucky is 70+yrs out of time. He and Cap are the last ones who recall all the 'good old days' before the War, before Hitler and Hydra.

Well, if you ask the shippers....

Seriously though, this is his best friend from childhood. It's probably the closest thing he has to family, and is his oldest friend, and then some.

[LadyTevar]

Well, if you ask the shippers....

Seriously though, this is his best friend from childhood. It's probably the closest thing he has to family, and is his oldest friend, and then some.

They're brothers, pure and simple. You don't leave a brother.

BUT there's more to the Accords than what the Movie shows. The ACTU is the one in charge here (SHIELD is still underground), and there is a faction in the ACTU which is not just wanting "Powered" under control, they are capturing Inhumans to create their own Army.* The Accords would make it legal to track "Powereds" down and "contain" them, especially those resisting Registration.
Hail Hydra....

*See Agents of SHIELD, Season 2-3.

[The Romulan Republic]

Cut off one head...

[Gandalf]

So the plot is looking to be another Cap v Hydra storyline?

[The Romulan Republic]

Well, if we assume, as LadyTevar said, that the ATCU is behind things in the film, quite possibly. Certainly they're cracking down harshly on superhuman "threats" in the name of security. And as the last episode of Agents of SHIELD showed, they've been seriously compromised by Hydra remnants (namely Ward and his new co-conspirator).

[Gandalf]

Well I hope that's not the case. TWS would have been way better had the plot not been Hydra based.

Doing the same to CW will make the whole story far too two dimensional.

[Napoleon the Clown]

Am I the only one who thinks it isn't implausible that the movie will have Tony end up deciding to join Steve's side? Yeah, the comics Tony is pro-registration. But Tony in the MCU is pretty opposed to the government trying to tell him what to do. The friction I can see between Tony and Steve would come down to an issue with the Bucky situation, and while Tony is a pretty arrogant guy he's not beyond reasoning with. If Steve were to convince him to freaking listen for five seconds then he'd probably agree that the situation is screwed up. I don't recall Age of Ultron ever bringing up just what happened to Bucky, so if Tony were made aware of that situation he'd likely agree that Bucky probably doesn't warrant a shoot-on-sight order.

If anything, I foresee people disagreeing with Steve shielding Bucky when the stakes or so damn high in doing so.

[Gaidin]

Am I the only one who thinks it isn't implausible that the movie will have Tony end up deciding to join Steve's side? Yeah, the comics Tony is pro-registration. But Tony in the MCU is pretty opposed to the government trying to tell him what to do. The friction I can see between Tony and Steve would come down to an issue with the Bucky situation, and while Tony is a pretty arrogant guy he's not beyond reasoning with. If Steve were to convince him to freaking listen for five seconds then he'd probably agree that the situation is screwed up. I don't recall Age of Ultron ever bringing up just what happened to Bucky, so if Tony were made aware of that situation he'd likely agree that Bucky probably doesn't warrant a shoot-on-sight order.

If anything, I foresee people disagreeing with Steve shielding Bucky when the stakes or so damn high in doing so.

Age of Ultron only had them starting a fight over Vision. Nearly along the same battle lines of Civil War. Somewhat...uhh...fitting.

[The Romulan Republic]

So what are the sides?

From the teaser, it appears to be Tony and War Machine and possibly Black Widow vs. Cap., Bucky, Hawkeye (can't believe he and Black Widow would be on opposite sides), Falcon, and Wanda.

Black Panther, Vision, Ant Man, and Spidey are supposed to be in it as well, at least according to IMDB, but its not clear where they fall.

Also, who does SHIELD back? I have a hard time seeing Phil Coulson going up against Cap., but you never know. Nick Fury... hard to say.

[Gaidin]

So what are the sides?

Going by the trailer and not those promotional pictures they put out?

The sides form up in an amusingly fitting way. The people that experienced that corruption in some form, be it Scarlet Witch(screwed by Stark Industries), Bucky(screwed by HYDRA), Hawkeye(SHIELD screwed by HYDRA), Falcon(helped against SHIELD screwed by HYDRA) <--> Against Iron Man, War Machine(traditional Military), Black Panther(can't say who or why other than his own politics likely as a leader of a country).

What's interesting is the major fight scenes seem to have Black Widow just...watching. I'm not sure what her agenda is...yet. But she's one of those spies that seems to have the ability to put her likes and dislikes aside for orders which may be why we've seen her advertised as on Iron Man's side.

Other characters listed in cast don't show in specific roles yet.

[The Romulan Republic]

It would be interesting if Black Widow is running her own game, separate from either side.

[SCRawl]

So what are the sides?

In the comics, Spider-Man started out on the side of pro-Registration Act heroes (i.e. with Iron Man), as he was being mentored by Tony Stark at the time. He even publicly revealed his identity, which was a bit of a shock for some (such as J. Jonah Jameson, Editor-in-Chief of the Daily Bugle, employer of Peter Parker, and writer of such even-handed headlines as "Spider-Man: Threat or Menace?") And he kind of hated himself for that choice. Only upon learning of some of the pro-Registration side's methods, such as warehousing dissenting superhumans in the Negative Zone, did he defect to the anti-Registration side.

[Kojiro]

I was trying to avoid watching this but eventually I caved after hearing too much.

Cap is often described as 'peak human conditioning' rather than superhuman. Anyone who can hold onto a helicopter with one hand and a railing with the other and stop the chopper is well beyond human peaks. I've no idea what the upwards pull on a chopper like that is but I'm sure it's at least a few tons.

As for the Cap/Bucky vs Stark fight, I think Marvel is playing their 'metal vs metal' match (metal x is basically undamaged by lower level metals). The blows from each super soldier aren't doing much more than disorientating Stark and limiting his effectiveness. The blows with the shield however, will be inflicting damage- hence why they're swapping the shield back and forth to chip away at the armour, at least until Bucky can rip out the ARC reactor.

As to the plot, what exactly could be in these Accords that would be really useful? In order to put oversight onto someone innately powered you really have only a few options. You either trust them and monitor them in an almost invasive way or you put some physical restriction on them (and probably still monitor them). Or you just incarcerate them (as best you can). How does one oversee Vision? Scarlet Witch? Hulk or Thor? It's probably a deliberate move for them to have disappeared at the end of Avengers 2. Hulk can only be contained if he wants to be and Thor would naturally reject all human oversight. At the end of the day what are they really proposing be done to these heroes?

I hope it's not as simple as wanting to secretly dispose of Bucky. By now the story of Loki and his mind control, leading to the battle of NY must have come out (not to mention Jessica Jones is flying the same flag). If Captain Freaking America showed up and wanted to tell the story of his war hero friend, mistreated and abused for decades but who was finally free of mind control- and who saved Captain America- any journalist/news outlet would cream their pants for the story. Captain America is damned hero with his own museum exhibit- people are going to listen to him.

Regardless, I'm pumped for this. I kinda hope someone dies though, since the idea that everyone is just injured really annoys me. That scene where we see Warmachine severely damaged... I don't know that feel like finding a tank with a 2' hole in the side but the crew are all ok. Not that I want anyone to die. And anyone who knows the comics knows the outcome, but I'm not at all sure they'll go that route.

[Iroscato]

The 'peak human condition' thing is bullshit. Always has been, always will be. Cap is essentially superhuman.

[Kingmaker]

Comic book physics extends to other sciences as well. In Iron Man 2, a shirtless Ivan Vanko is hit by a speeding SUV and slammed into a wall multiple times... and is fine. Tony Stark slammed himself face first into the concrete roof of his garage while building the Mk. II. Again, completely fine. (Not to mention some of the stuff he does should would them to hose him out of the suit afterwards in reality).

"Peak human" really just means their super attributes are not an explicit superpower. Steve Rogers is super strong, he just doesn't have super strength.

[Kojiro]

Comic book physics extends to other sciences as well. In Iron Man 2, a shirtless Ivan Vanko is hit by a speeding SUV and slammed into a wall multiple times... and is fine.

Actually he's not fine, he's knocked out. He's not crushed, which is more what you'd expect. If you look closely though (and the Hot Toys are an excellent duplication) you can see his legs actually have some of the exoskeleton around them. Granted we can't see what's under his pants but it seems perfectly logical to assume the entire exoskeleton is connected. If so, getting knocked out (since he wasn't wearing a helmet) but not crushed makes perfect sense.

Tony Stark slammed himself face first into the concrete roof of his garage while building the Mk. II. Again, completely fine. (Not to mention some of the stuff he does should would them to hose him out of the suit afterwards in reality).

That scene I think was played more for laughs but yeah, there is is. Obviously the way he bounces around in the suits is crazy but I can hand wave that away as Stark-tech.

"Peak human" really just means their super attributes are not an explicit superpower. Steve Rogers is super strong, he just doesn't have super strength.

I'm not sure what kind of line that is to draw. That's like saying that Thor's ability to flip a tank by smacking the front of it isn't explicitly super strength, he's just strong for an Asgardian. I always took 'peak human' to mean the absolute best a human could be, with the best diet, training and a bit of genetic luck. I mean, we're not only talking about how hellishly strong Steve's handshake must be but the fact one of his arms weren't ripped from their sockets means he's also exceptionally durable. But my point was only that Steve seems to be getting significantly upgraded or he's never really cut loose.

[NeoGoomba]

Movie Cap has always been more the superhuman beast from Ultimates than "Olympic Athlete" in the comics. If it seems like he is getting stronger, I'd put it as simply getting way more skilled with how to utilize his power. For example, watch his lackluster performance against Loki in Avengers. Then compare that to his running battle against goddamn Ultron. Not only was he holding his own against a killbot that was a match for Iron Man, but he was able to actually do some damage.

[FaxModem1]

Re-watching the trailer, I wonder if Black Panther's involvement on the registration side because of the Vibranium use from Age of Ultron. In Age of Ultron, Ultron had to buy a huge supply from black market dealers in order to have enough to enact his plan, maybe there's international pressure to regulate the trade of vibranium, or, knowing how Wakanda treats everyone else, a restriction of Vibranium being used anywhere else, including Steve's shield, just like their cure for cancer and their unwillingness to let anyone else have it.

[Kojiro]

It could be something like that. Vibranium could be considered too dangerous to be out there. Stark is possibly the biggest threat though. If he ever built a suit from it... I personally dislike that such an amount was even obtainable. It makes the plan too bizarre. Dropping a rock? Well ok I guess. But dropping a rock that require 850 meters worth of vibranium? If he'd suggested solid gold it would be easier to acquire. If it were that easily obtained Stark, among others, would have utilised it already.

I think we'll see some side swapping though, overall. I just hope the ending isn't all rainbows and light.

[The Romulan Republic]

What I hope more than anything is that they don't portray Cap. as entirely in the right. The trailer shows a Cap. who believes he is above accountability and is apparently willing to turn on his country and his comrades to save one man who he happens to care about. I want him to get called on that.

[Gandalf]

Aren't all of the Avengers (and SHIELD) above accountability, on account of their varied abilities?

[Gaidin]

Aren't all of the Avengers (and SHIELD) above accountability, on account of their varied abilities?

SHIELD, when it was SHIELD, had the World Security Council as an international agency. As it is now, Coulson, as Director, established people above him to act in a similar position. They just haven't had a plot relevant point to show up since late Season 2, which is fair enough. No need to bring in extra baggage for no reason on the show.

The Avengers are the characters that have no known official accountability as such. Hence the Sokovia Accords we see in the trailers. Unless you want to count the people telling Coulson what to do, as there is no known government persay telling them what to do.

It's a weird little setup as the MCU is currently going, though it makes sense. Mostly due to the lack of trust for SHIELD and Coulson's attempts to gain that trust plot-wise, and his own demands for that accountability at least from his own people so he sets up that clone of the Council.

[Elheru Aran]

Basically SHIELD had some people calling the shots for them, then it turned out HYDRA was running the show behind the scenes, and that shot everything to shit. Now they're having to rebuild public trust, hence the accords.

I'm still a bit surprised that the world apparently doesn't care that much about the Avengers deliberately intervening in other countries in Age of Ultron, like Wakanda and Sokovia... or China.

[Gaidin]

Well, the Avengers as a private organization was interesting in that they were able to keep their antics limited to rumors(remote HYDRA bases) until they wrecked a train in China, a city in Wakanda, and a city in Sokovia. Yes, mostly the bad guy's fault. But when the bad guy's not around, and there's no agency around to do the bureaucracy machine for you...

[Elheru Aran]

Right? So things get interesting from a diplomatic standpoint. Hell, you got a guy literally named after one of the biggest bullies on the international stage, wearing their flag (just about), being more or less the leader of the group... Honestly it's hard to tell from the movies that SHIELD aren't an exclusively American organization, apart from the WSC.

I would not be too surprised if a decent part of the plot of this movie is something like "the Avengers aren't supposed to do anything without approval of x anymore" and Cap is all chafing at the bit as a result.