Captain America: Civil War thread

[Adam Reynolds]

The other factor that would lead to Bucky/Cap having a chance is that Tony is absurdly overconfident. It is the same reason that Batman can take down Superman. Being more powerful isn't the only relevant factor in combat.

It's also the same reason that Obi-Wan defeated Anakin in ROTS. A more powerful but more overconfident opponent can lose a fight due to being put in a situation in which the weaker opponent has enough of a situational advantage that he can be victorious.

On the subject of Cap's rebellion I have to agree with TRR. Cap's position isn't very reasonable. Though Tony seems to have reversed his position since IM2 in which he rebuffed exactly the same speech he was giving in this movie.

I have also felt that this would be an interesting conflict to explore with two sets of Jedi on opposite sides of a conflict loosely analagous to this one. It would come down to a legal mandate versus a moral one. That could be the idea that Rogers is going for. Though Jedi have a more reasonable argument than him in that they literally have the will of the gods on their side while Cap only has his own position on issues.

[Tsyroc]

I noticed that the report that General Ross gives Cap is about the Sokova incident. I think it would be very easy to lay the whole mess at Tony's feet and not necessarily the Avengers. If anything it should show that Tony needs intense supervision, something that SHIELD pretty much knew from the first Iron Man movie. He also should have a pretty good PTSD defense, both from what happened to him in Iron Man and then what happened to him in the Avengers. Iron Man 3 probably wasn't all that good for him either.

I will say that I like this Civil War premise better than the comic book one. Part of it is based in similar thinking but having Cap's reasoning have a lot to do with protecting his friend, especially if the government's intentions are to kill Bucky outright or make him disappear for things he had no control over. Way to treat one of your WWII heroes. The story in the books was asinine because superhero registration act should have been challenged six ways to Sunday in the courts before it went into effect. The only character who seemed to do that to any extent was Iron Fist. Actually the one in the book was asinine for even more ways but that diverges too much from the thread topic.

[Adam Reynolds]

The other major problem with the comic book idea is that secret identities are stupid. That is something that I am glad the Marvel movies are ignoring. None of the main characters actually have them.

[Crazedwraith]

The other major problem with the comic book idea is that secret identities are stupid. That is something that I am glad the Marvel movies are ignoring. None of the main characters actually have them.

How so?

For a big recognised group like the Avengers or X-Men it's less of an issue. But a secret identity is essential for the low level vigilante heroes like Daredevil or Spider-Man to go un-harassed and un-arrested in their every day life.

[SCRawl]

I noticed that the report that General Ross gives Cap is about the Sokova incident. I think it would be very easy to lay the whole mess at Tony's feet and not necessarily the Avengers. If anything it should show that Tony needs intense supervision, something that SHIELD pretty much knew from the first Iron Man movie. He also should have a pretty good PTSD defense, both from what happened to him in Iron Man and then what happened to him in the Avengers. Iron Man 3 probably wasn't all that good for him either.

I will say that I like this Civil War premise better than the comic book one. Part of it is based in similar thinking but having Cap's reasoning have a lot to do with protecting his friend, especially if the government's intentions are to kill Bucky outright or make him disappear for things he had no control over. Way to treat one of your WWII heroes. The story in the books was asinine because superhero registration act should have been challenged six ways to Sunday in the courts before it went into effect. The only character who seemed to do that to any extent was Iron Fist. Actually the one in the book was asinine for even more ways but that diverges too much from the thread topic.

It's not a report. The title says "Sokovia Accords", which will be a stand-in for the Superhuman Registration Act, which is what Cap is at least nominally fighting against. So, apparently, says one of the directors.

[SCRawl]

The other major problem with the comic book idea is that secret identities are stupid. That is something that I am glad the Marvel movies are ignoring. None of the main characters actually have them.

How so?

For a big recognised group like the Avengers or X-Men it's less of an issue. But a secret identity is essential for the low level vigilante heroes like Daredevil or Spider-Man to go un-harassed and un-arrested in their every day life.

Secret identities are impractical. They can't really exist in a real world. It might be hard to track down, say, Iron Man or Spider-Man, because they give nothing away at all (unless their costumes get shredded in public for plot purposes) but if Captain America, for example, wanted to keep his identity secret, it would be impossible today. Everyone has a camera, and eventually someone with access to government records would gather some images of him, use some facial recognition software, and figure it out. That Superman could maintain a secret identity is patently ridiculous, and really always has been.

Daredevil is kind of a special case, since he's hardly ever photographed and has built-in plausible deniability ("are you serious? I'm fucking blind, you know...") if it should ever come up.

[Gaidin]

It's not a report. The title says "Sokovia Accords", which will be a stand-in for the Superhuman Registration Act, which is what Cap is at least nominally fighting against. So, apparently, says one of the directors.

So, in line with the incidents of previous movies, Cap seems more worried about corruption. And then the way they try to handle Bucky, seems to line up with that, causing the breach in the team do you think?

[SCRawl]

In the comics he was fundamentally opposed to the loss of freedoms which were part of the Superhuman Registration Act, especially the way it was implemented. In the films, his motivations seem to be (a) his loyalty to Bucky, specifically the solution the world's governments have for his final disposition, and (b) his distrust of the way the world's governments' will execute the laws set out in the Sokovia Accords.

[Adam Reynolds]

The other major problem with the comic book idea is that secret identities are stupid. That is something that I am glad the Marvel movies are ignoring. None of the main characters actually have them.

How so?

For a big recognised group like the Avengers or X-Men it's less of an issue. But a secret identity is essential for the low level vigilante heroes like Daredevil or Spider-Man to go un-harassed and un-arrested in their every day life.

Secret identities are impractical. They can't really exist in a real world. It might be hard to track down, say, Iron Man or Spider-Man, because they give nothing away at all (unless their costumes get shredded in public for plot purposes) but if Captain America, for example, wanted to keep his identity secret, it would be impossible today. Everyone has a camera, and eventually someone with access to government records would gather some images of him, use some facial recognition software, and figure it out. That Superman could maintain a secret identity is patently ridiculous, and really always has been.

Daredevil is kind of a special case, since he's hardly ever photographed and has built-in plausible deniability ("are you serious? I'm fucking blind, you know...") if it should ever come up.

This is especially true in the context of a government not knowing who they were. That is what I was largely referring to. Secret identities backed up by SHIELD make sense, secret identities that SHIELD cannot figure out do not.

What was especially stupid with Superman was Lois not knowing that both were the same person.

[The Romulan Republic]

In the comics he was fundamentally opposed to the loss of freedoms which were part of the Superhuman Registration Act, especially the way it was implemented. In the films, his motivations seem to be (a) his loyalty to Bucky, specifically the solution the world's governments have for his final disposition, and (b) his distrust of the way the world's governments' will execute the laws set out in the Sokovia Accords.

Well that could work better, depending on exactly how bad the Sokovia Accords are and how badly the government executes them, as long as its not predominantly about just Bucky.

I could see Bucky being the final straw after a long line of bullshit, though.

[Bedlam]

On a linked issue, what do you think should actually happen to Bucky?

He's killed and unknown number of people and caused quite a bit of destruction while under the control of Hydra.

I'd think the legal thing to do would be to have him arrested and then tested for the mental competency to stand trial for the crimes he's committed.

Certainly I'd be against a government wanting to just kill him, although indefinite imprisonment while undergoing psychiatric treatment would also potentially seem reasonable.

If Cap is just expecting the world to just let his best friend go free then I wouldn't be behind him.

[The Romulan Republic]

I would said imprisonment followed by a thorough psychological evaluation and trial to determine the extent of his responsibility for his actions (seeing as how he had his mind manipulated). If found responsible for his own actions (he wasn't mad after all, just mind wiped plus whatever else Hydra did to him), then life without possibility of parol in prison.

Though if he switches sides and starts doing heroics alongside Cap, then perhaps he could be considered to have "defected" from Hydra and be pardoned.

[FaxModem1]

If that's the case, do we consider Kilgrave's victims in Jessica Jones should also receive the same treatment?

[The Romulan Republic]

Haven't seen Jessica Jones, so I can't say.

[Gaidin]

Well let's just say it's amusing you're holding comic book technology and powers to daily legal standards. Because there's no way any of this could at all be proven except that he murdered people except over an impossible time period so maybe it wasn't him. 70 years right?

[The Romulan Republic]

I'm sure Marvel universe laws have adapted to take into account the possibility of people with superhuman abilities. Or if they haven't, they bloody well should have.

[Gaidin]

I'm sure they have. But our discussions aren't exactly pulling Marvel's legal books out of their world. They're talking...uhh...our standards.

[Mr Bean]

Well let's just say it's amusing you're holding comic book technology and powers to daily legal standards. Because there's no way any of this could at all be proven except that he murdered people except over an impossible time period so maybe it wasn't him. 70 years right?

Except said persons were rarely US citizens and technically speaking he was murdering people at the behest of Hydra which from the 60s on had official US Backing for most of his assassinations.

Seriously while Winter Soldier might be on the hook for twenty plus secret murders the movie premise will entirely depend on how callous the US Goverment is going to be with Bucky. If it's a shot on sight execute him for being to dangerous then the audience will get on Cap's side. But if it's something silly like "He's a good guy now, Pardon him Mr President so we can go check out this malt shop I found" then yeah it's gonna be hard to root for Caps victory.


*Edit hmm that's a valid point what if the shoot on sight order is issued preciously because some Washington politicos don't want it expose exactly how many Bucky related murders have occurred over the years. Here's an idea, who kills Tony's dad? Why not your perfect robo mind wiped assassin?

[The Romulan Republic]

Now that's an interesting thought. It would give Tony a strong reason to side against Cap if it turned out the man Cap is protecting killed his father.

Actually, now that I think about it, didn't Winter Soldier indicate that Hydra killed Stark Sr.? I can't recall if their was any indication as to weather Bucky did it, but its plausible.

[bilateralrope]

The other major problem with the comic book idea is that secret identities are stupid. That is something that I am glad the Marvel movies are ignoring. None of the main characters actually have them.

How so?

For a big recognised group like the Avengers or X-Men it's less of an issue. But a secret identity is essential for the low level vigilante heroes like Daredevil or Spider-Man to go un-harassed and un-arrested in their every day life.

Something I've been thinking for a bit now is that a lot of secret identities will seriously compromise the heroes day job should the secret ever be revealed.Take Superman as an example. How bad will the Daily Planet look if it's revealed that they have been reporting on Superman for years with him working as one of their reporters. Would anyone ever believe that nobody there knew about the serious conflict of interest ?
Or will people stop buying it, leading to a lot of people losing their jobs ?

Or look at the Flash, specifically the TV series. Barry's day job is as a forensic scientist. He has shown up to crime scenes both as the flash and in his forensics role. If his identity is revealed, how many criminals will be released on appeal after a judge throws out Barry's forensics ?



There is a Texts from Superheroes entry that left me asking the question "How many of these superheroes need the income from their day job ?"

Off the top of my head that problem is worse for DC. Superman has a crystal fortress. The Flash has Star Labs being funded somehow. Supergirl is working closely with a government agency. All saying that the superhero has access to significant resources. Resources that should be able to pay a decent salary to the hero. The Marvel heroes I can think of that are working day jobs don't have access to similar resources. They have to work day jobs just to pay rent.

[Gandalf]

I would said imprisonment followed by a thorough psychological evaluation and trial to determine the extent of his responsibility for his actions (seeing as how he had his mind manipulated). If found responsible for his own actions (he wasn't mad after all, just mind wiped plus whatever else Hydra did to him), then life without possibility of parol in prison.

Though if he switches sides and starts doing heroics alongside Cap, then perhaps he could be considered to have "defected" from Hydra and be pardoned.

Presumably if Bucky starts working with Captain America, he could use Black Widow's defence for not being arrested, from the end of TWS.

"You're not gonna put me in a prison. You're not gonna put any of us in a prison. You know why?"
"Do enlighten us."
"Because you need us. Yes, the world is a vulnerable place, and yes, we helped make it that way. But we're also the ones best qualified to defend it. So if you want to arrest me, arrest me. You'll know where to find me."

Essentially; I'm in a higher class of person, so fuck off.

[The Romulan Republic]

I don't take that speech as saying "I'm a higher class of person", though I can see how it could be taken that way. More "You're screwed, so you're going to have to be pragmatic and not lock up the people who know how to unscrew you."

Though it does sound a bit like the "Too big to fail" argument used during the recession.

And the closing line, "You'll know where to find me", basically comes off as a reminder that if they want to arrest her, they'll have to go through the Avengers to do it.

[Korgeta]

Downy's delivery 'so was i' was brilliant, there is a lot of character driven and conflict elements into this that it does look promising and could hype up to be a big hit.

I don't think bucky would be the one who killed Stark snr it was implied that he died of sabotage and the winter solider was simply a high powered brute, it dosen't seem his style to setup 'accidents' looking back on black widow's line it looks more of foreshadowing justification for the registration act now (that and the events of ultron of course)

How glad I am though that the red skull isn't coming back as rumoured, red skull from the comics is ok that's not the problem but I'm just tired of bringing back the idea of 'THE NAZIS' I would rather have captain america deal with the realities that clash with his ideals and this looks se to do that.

[Tsyroc]

Downy's delivery 'so was i' was brilliant, there is a lot of character driven and conflict elements into this that it does look promising and could hype up to be a big hit.

I don't think bucky would be the one who killed Stark snr it was implied that he died of sabotage and the winter solider was simply a high powered brute, it dosen't seem his style to setup 'accidents' looking back on black widow's line it looks more of foreshadowing justification for the registration act now (that and the events of ultron of course)

How glad I am though that the red skull isn't coming back as rumoured, red skull from the comics is ok that's not the problem but I'm just tired of bringing back the idea of 'THE NAZIS' I would rather have captain america deal with the realities that clash with his ideals and this looks se to do that.

I liked the scene where Stark says he'd like to punch Steve in his perfect teeth. I was expecting Steve to reply in kind because if there's anyone many people would love to punch it is Stark.

I wouldn't mind the Red Skull coming back but I do agree with you that it is better if they stay away from the Nazi thing. They already made the focus Hydra and not the Nazi's from the first Cap movie, they just had lots of Nazi elements. Now Agents of SHIELD is trying to move the bad guys even further away from that by retconning the creation of what became Hydra to an organization that has been around for hundreds if not thousands of years. Which in way fits the "cut one head off, two more tale its place" schtick.

[LadyTevar]

Why would Cap want to save Bucky? Come on, you can't be THAT naive. Not only is there 'survivors guilt' on Cap's part, for all that Bucky went thru with Hydra, there's also the sheer fact that Cap is no longer ALONE. Like Cap, Bucky is 70+yrs out of time. He and Cap are the last ones who recall all the 'good old days' before the War, before Hitler and Hydra.