I'm sure I remember coming across several outright statements that the effect of the Seven on dwarves was to make them desire gold, not just magically "become rich". Of course, this wasn't quite what Sauron intended when he gave the rings to the Dwarf Lords, but since he didn't realise just how stubborn little so-and-sos the dwarves were, his "seek power, serve Me" enchantment that had worked so well with the Nine went just a little bit adrift.Kingmaker wrote:I don't know that adding in a magic ring that has some vaguely defined ability to make you rich would've enhanced the story and it probably would've just added confusion, e.g. people thinking that Thorin's gold fever was due to the ring or somesuch.
The Hobbit - Battle of the Five Armies (Spoliers)
Moderator: Steve
- SpottedKitty
- Jedi Master
- Posts: 1004
- Joined: 2014-08-22 08:24pm
- Location: UK
Re: The Hobbit - Battle of the Five Armies (Spoliers)
“Despite rumor, Death isn't cruel — merely terribly, terribly good at his job.”
Terry Pratchett, Sourcery
Terry Pratchett, Sourcery
Re: The Hobbit - Battle of the Five Armies (Spoliers)
A funny thought just occurred to me. When Sauron created the One Ring the Elves immediately realised what was going on and took off their rings. Fair enough, but why didn't they destroy them? They were certainly capable of doing so. If Celebrimor had destroyed the rings right off the bat the One Ring would have been rendered entirely useless before Sauron even got the chance to use it! Remember that Sauron invaded years after he demanded that the rings be handed voer to him, so it's not like they were in a rush or anything. Why did they take the chance that Sauron would invade and take the rings by force? They knew they couldn't use the rings, so what was the point in keeping them if all that did was make them a target?
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - The official Troll motto, as stated by Adam Savage
- Lord Revan
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 12229
- Joined: 2004-05-20 02:23pm
- Location: Zone:classified
Re: The Hobbit - Battle of the Five Armies (Spoliers)
are they really capable of destroying the power rings, it's made pretty clear that the power rings are way more then just a fancy ring with a pretty gem and it would take alot more to destroy one then it takes to destroy a normal ring.
I may be an idiot, but I'm a tolerated idiot
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n
Re: The Hobbit - Battle of the Five Armies (Spoliers)
Well, one would think that the elven smiths who created the Rings of Power would have been capable of destroying them. Certainly Celebrimor should have been able to do so, if not others. Only the One Ring would have been beyond the power of the elves of eregion to destroy, as that was made by Sauron himself in Mt. Doom. If Celebrimor had a working brain, he would have destroyed the lot of them so that Sauron's plan would have been a total failure. It's not like he could use any of them while the One Ring was in Sauron's possession anyways.
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - The official Troll motto, as stated by Adam Savage
- SpottedKitty
- Jedi Master
- Posts: 1004
- Joined: 2014-08-22 08:24pm
- Location: UK
Re: The Hobbit - Battle of the Five Armies (Spoliers)
IIRC part of what Sauron did when he taught the Eregion smiths how to make the Rings of Power was how to put their own vitality as Elves into the rings. They were trapped in the same snare as Sauron after he lost the One — if the Three were destroyed (setting aside for a moment whether they could have) then Team Elf would lose all their heavy hitters. And that's exactly what happened after the One was actually destroyed and Sauron defeated; the Three lost all their power and the fading of the elves went even faster. If that had happened while Sauron still had the One, at pretty much the height of his strength, he would have won easily. The bearers of the Three were stuck; they didn't dare use them, and they couldn't afford to try destroying them.Tribble wrote:When Sauron created the One Ring the Elves immediately realised what was going on and took off their rings. Fair enough, but why didn't they destroy them?
“Despite rumor, Death isn't cruel — merely terribly, terribly good at his job.”
Terry Pratchett, Sourcery
Terry Pratchett, Sourcery
Re: The Hobbit - Battle of the Five Armies (Spoliers)
Assuming that was a requirement, Celebrimor was solely responsible for the Three Rings. Galadriel, Elrond, Gil-galad and Celeborn etc had nothing to do with the creation of the Rings of Power, and their vitality would not have gone into them.SpottedKitty wrote:IIRC part of what Sauron did when he taught the Eregion smiths how to make the Rings of Power was how to put their own vitality as Elves into the rings. They were trapped in the same snare as Sauron after he lost the One — if the Three were destroyed (setting aside for a moment whether they could have) then Team Elf would lose all their heavy hitters. And that's exactly what happened after the One was actually destroyed and Sauron defeated; the Three lost all their power and the fading of the elves went even faster. If that had happened while Sauron still had the One, at pretty much the height of his strength, he would have won easily. The bearers of the Three were stuck; they didn't dare use them, and they couldn't afford to try destroying them.Tribble wrote:When Sauron created the One Ring the Elves immediately realised what was going on and took off their rings. Fair enough, but why didn't they destroy them?
The loss of the Three would have been heavy for sure. But when Sauron first forged the One Ring the elves were still in possession of the Seven and the Nine. Destroying the lot of them would have been the best option as it would have ensured that Sauron would never be able to get use out of any of them. Or if the Three were absolutely essential to keep, then the elves should have at the very least destroyed the Seven and the Nine, which would have prevented Sauron from using them against the dwarves and Men respectively. Without the Seven and the Nine Sauron would have been much easier to deal with, and the One Ring's usefulness would have been greatly diminished. The fact that they tried to keep all the Rings of Power despite knowing that Sauron would eventually come for them with overwhelming force seems pretty risky, if not outright stupid.
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - The official Troll motto, as stated by Adam Savage
- Lord Revan
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 12229
- Joined: 2004-05-20 02:23pm
- Location: Zone:classified
Re: The Hobbit - Battle of the Five Armies (Spoliers)
we know that who ever posses the One Ring cannot willingly destroy it, so it's not totally impossible that other rings of power had something similar.
I may be an idiot, but I'm a tolerated idiot
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n
-
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 30165
- Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm
Re: The Hobbit - Battle of the Five Armies (Spoliers)
Could someone walk me through the reasoning behind "destroying the Three would have neutralized the One?"
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
- Guardsman Bass
- Cowardly Codfish
- Posts: 9281
- Joined: 2002-07-07 12:01am
- Location: Beneath the Deepest Sea
Re: The Hobbit - Battle of the Five Armies (Spoliers)
I think they just couldn't bring themselves to destroy the Three, especially if there was a chance they might get to use them again. Certainly they used them again as soon as they could, like with Galadriel.
“It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life.”
-Jean-Luc Picard
"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them."
-Margaret Atwood
-Jean-Luc Picard
"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them."
-Margaret Atwood
- Terralthra
- Requiescat in Pace
- Posts: 4741
- Joined: 2007-10-05 09:55pm
- Location: San Francisco, California, United States
Re: The Hobbit - Battle of the Five Armies (Spoliers)
I think the implication is not just the Three, but the Nine and the Seven as well. At the time Sauron created the One and the bearers of the Three felt his influence, the elves were still in possession of all 19. Sauron intended them to all be worn by elves, not men or dwarves. After he realized that the bearers of the Three took theirs off, he made war on the elves. They hid the Three, but he managed to acquire the Seven and the Nine at that time.
So, the question is, why didn't the elves destroy all of the Three, Seven, and Nine before Sauron acquired them?
So, the question is, why didn't the elves destroy all of the Three, Seven, and Nine before Sauron acquired them?
Re: The Hobbit - Battle of the Five Armies (Spoliers)
Essentially the rings worked by putting part of the essence of something inside them.
The Elves mostly chose the essence of Middle-Earth, in order to preserve it. Putting it inside a small yet near indestructible trinket would have shielded it against corruption and decay, in addition to allowing the wearer greater control over it.
But due to that reason, destroying the rings would also mean diminishing Middle-Earth.
The Elves mostly chose the essence of Middle-Earth, in order to preserve it. Putting it inside a small yet near indestructible trinket would have shielded it against corruption and decay, in addition to allowing the wearer greater control over it.
But due to that reason, destroying the rings would also mean diminishing Middle-Earth.
SoS:NBA GALE Force
"Destiny and fate are for those too weak to forge their own futures. Where we are 'supposed' to be is irrelevent." - Sir Nitram
"The world owes you nothing but painful lessons" - CaptainChewbacca
"The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one." - Wilhelm Stekel
"In 1969 it was easier to send a man to the Moon than to have the public accept a homosexual" - Broomstick
Divine Administration - of Gods and Bureaucracy (Worm/Exalted)
"Destiny and fate are for those too weak to forge their own futures. Where we are 'supposed' to be is irrelevent." - Sir Nitram
"The world owes you nothing but painful lessons" - CaptainChewbacca
"The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one." - Wilhelm Stekel
"In 1969 it was easier to send a man to the Moon than to have the public accept a homosexual" - Broomstick
Divine Administration - of Gods and Bureaucracy (Worm/Exalted)
Re: The Hobbit - Battle of the Five Armies (Spoliers)
True, but you would think that given the option between Middle-Earth diminishing or the Rings falling into the hands of Sauron, the elves would has chosen the former over the ladder. Celebrimor's interrogation should have gone something like this:
Sauron: Where are the Rings of Power?
Celebrimor: I destroyed them all the moment I found out what your plan was.
Sauron: ... but without the Rings of Power, Middle-Earth will be diminished!
Celebrimor: That's still a hell of a lot better than you getting a hold of them! What, do you think I'm stupid or something?
Sauron: ...
Celebrimor: Fuck you Sauron!
Sauron: Where are the Rings of Power?
Celebrimor: I destroyed them all the moment I found out what your plan was.
Sauron: ... but without the Rings of Power, Middle-Earth will be diminished!
Celebrimor: That's still a hell of a lot better than you getting a hold of them! What, do you think I'm stupid or something?
Sauron: ...
Celebrimor: Fuck you Sauron!
"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" - The official Troll motto, as stated by Adam Savage
Re: The Hobbit - Battle of the Five Armies (Spoliers)
I don't think it's a given that they could've easily destroyed them. Getting rid of the One Ring was obviously a bit of an ordeal, and the dwarf rings apparently required dragon fire to destroy. It may be they never had a chance to destroy them. Or, as I note below, they may not have wanted to.Terralthra wrote:So, the question is, why didn't the elves destroy all of the Three, Seven, and Nine before Sauron acquired them?
Have you met these people? Remember, this is the same group of people that went to war over the Silmarils. The Noldor are very attached to their creations, and they can be a tad overconfident.That's still a hell of a lot better than you getting a hold of them! What, do you think I'm stupid or something?
They did make the wearers greedier, but they also had some unspecified ability to create wealth. In any event, it wouldn't have been much of a ring of power if it didn't do anything.I'm sure I remember coming across several outright statements that the effect of the Seven on dwarves was to make them desire gold, not just magically "become rich".
In the event that the content of the above post is factually or logically flawed, I was Trolling All Along.
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful." - George Box
"Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful." - George Box
- Gandalf
- SD.net White Wizard
- Posts: 16351
- Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
- Location: A video store in Australia
Re: The Hobbit - Battle of the Five Armies (Spoliers)
Holy hell did that film fall down. The death of Smaug was the action opening sequence? Fucking hell PJ.
The rest was at best, a mess.
The rest was at best, a mess.
I always interpreted it as basically being a ring that essentially gave +2 to luck. So whenever the wearer decided to start a mine, they would pick the right mountain, and so on.Kingmaker wrote:They did make the wearers greedier, but they also had some unspecified ability to create wealth. In any event, it wouldn't have been much of a ring of power if it didn't do anything.
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"
- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist
"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"
- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist
"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin
- Purple
- Sith Acolyte
- Posts: 5233
- Joined: 2010-04-20 08:31am
- Location: In a purple cube orbiting this planet. Hijacking satellites for an internet connection.
Re: The Hobbit - Battle of the Five Armies (Spoliers)
I always thought it was basically a case of superior greed breeding superior ambition breeding superior willingness to go the extra mile downward in search of stuff you really should not be looking for.Gandalf wrote:I always interpreted it as basically being a ring that essentially gave +2 to luck. So whenever the wearer decided to start a mine, they would pick the right mountain, and so on.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.
You win. There, I have said it.
Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
You win. There, I have said it.
Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
- Guardsman Bass
- Cowardly Codfish
- Posts: 9281
- Joined: 2002-07-07 12:01am
- Location: Beneath the Deepest Sea
Re: The Hobbit - Battle of the Five Armies (Spoliers)
I'm glad someone else didn't like that sequence.Gandalf wrote:Holy hell did that film fall down. The death of Smaug was the action opening sequence? Fucking hell PJ.
. . . I don't know, it just annoyed me that Smaug wasn't slain in mid-flight, coming down for another pass. They set up the whole thing with the Dwarvish Windlance, Girion firing away at Smaug in mid-flight, the Windlance being atop a tower in Laketown in Desolation of Smaug - and then have him get hit while he's monologuing away on the "ground" walking towards Bard and his son, an easy target?
The Hobbit wrote: The dragon swooped once more lower than ever, and as he turned and dived down his belly glittered white with sparkling fires of gems in the moon— but not in one place. The great bow twanged. The black arrow sped straight from the string, straight for the hollow by the left breast where the foreleg was flung wide. In it smote and vanished, barb, shaft and feather, so fierce was its flight. With a shriek that deafened men, felled trees and split stone, Smaug shot spouting into the air , turned over and crashed down from on high in ruin.
Tolkien, J.R.R. (2012-02-15). The Hobbit (p. 251).
Granted, once he was hit by the arrow, Smaug's death was pretty good.
“It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life.”
-Jean-Luc Picard
"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them."
-Margaret Atwood
-Jean-Luc Picard
"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them."
-Margaret Atwood
Re: The Hobbit - Battle of the Five Armies (Spoliers)
Not sure if it would cause such confusion. Thorin clearly didn't have a Ring of Power and never did. Sauron got it back from Thrain sometime after the fall of Erebor.Kingmaker wrote:I don't know that adding in a magic ring that has some vaguely defined ability to make you rich would've enhanced the story and it probably would've just added confusion, e.g. people thinking that Thorin's gold fever was due to the ring or somesuch.
"This is supposed to be a happy occasion... Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who."
-- The King of Swamp Castle, Monty Python and the Holy Grail
"Nothing of consequence happened today. " -- Diary of King George III, July 4, 1776
"This is not bad; this is a conspiracy to remove happiness from existence. It seeks to wrap its hedgehog hand around the still beating heart of the personification of good and squeeze until it is stilled."
-- Chuck Sonnenburg on Voyager's "Elogium"
-- The King of Swamp Castle, Monty Python and the Holy Grail
"Nothing of consequence happened today. " -- Diary of King George III, July 4, 1776
"This is not bad; this is a conspiracy to remove happiness from existence. It seeks to wrap its hedgehog hand around the still beating heart of the personification of good and squeeze until it is stilled."
-- Chuck Sonnenburg on Voyager's "Elogium"
Re: The Hobbit - Battle of the Five Armies (Spoliers)
Remembering that the rings were originally made by elves for elves, their main feature is their power to preserve things. Rivendell and Lothlorien are examples of what a ring of power can do when used to "found a kingdom". Both places are protected from corruption and invasion (although not invulnerable, to be sure).Purple wrote:I always thought it was basically a case of superior greed breeding superior ambition breeding superior willingness to go the extra mile downward in search of stuff you really should not be looking for.Gandalf wrote:I always interpreted it as basically being a ring that essentially gave +2 to luck. So whenever the wearer decided to start a mine, they would pick the right mountain, and so on.
The rings apparently also give the wearer a "charisma bonus", which allows them to attract and inspire large numbers of followers. Thus, a kingdom founded by a ringbearer will have a large, loyal populace.
These powers would have served Thror well in the building of Erebor. Lots of dwarves come into his service, and they cheerfully put lots of work into the mining, smithing, and construction. Because of Thror's "superior leadership", Erebor quickly became the wealthiest of the dwarf kingdoms.
Then along came Smaug.
"This is supposed to be a happy occasion... Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who."
-- The King of Swamp Castle, Monty Python and the Holy Grail
"Nothing of consequence happened today. " -- Diary of King George III, July 4, 1776
"This is not bad; this is a conspiracy to remove happiness from existence. It seeks to wrap its hedgehog hand around the still beating heart of the personification of good and squeeze until it is stilled."
-- Chuck Sonnenburg on Voyager's "Elogium"
-- The King of Swamp Castle, Monty Python and the Holy Grail
"Nothing of consequence happened today. " -- Diary of King George III, July 4, 1776
"This is not bad; this is a conspiracy to remove happiness from existence. It seeks to wrap its hedgehog hand around the still beating heart of the personification of good and squeeze until it is stilled."
-- Chuck Sonnenburg on Voyager's "Elogium"
Re: The Hobbit - Battle of the Five Armies (Spoliers)
So this makes me think of why the One Ring was so important in the first place. If the original plan was to use it as a conduit to corrupt and conquer via the other rings then it appears is usefulness was pretty much moot by the LOTR events. The nine had already been corrupted and coopted, the dwarvish rings did not work as they were supposed to anyway, and the elven rings were not corrupting as intended either after they were cautioned by sensing Sauron's presence. Despite maintaining the nine as the nazgrul its purpose had come and gone.
If the one ring is so powerful all by itself that it makes Sauron unbeatable in the Third Age (as is the fear and purpose of the whole fellowship enterprise) when all the subordinate rings were nonissues why didn't he just create it by itself in the first place and not worry about all the others?
In the end he didn't even need the ring to be victorious, he was well on his way without it before his destruction laid his forces low, but that just begs the question as to why he made it in the first place once again if it just becomes a physical handicap that presumably didn't exist before its creation.
If the one ring is so powerful all by itself that it makes Sauron unbeatable in the Third Age (as is the fear and purpose of the whole fellowship enterprise) when all the subordinate rings were nonissues why didn't he just create it by itself in the first place and not worry about all the others?
In the end he didn't even need the ring to be victorious, he was well on his way without it before his destruction laid his forces low, but that just begs the question as to why he made it in the first place once again if it just becomes a physical handicap that presumably didn't exist before its creation.
Re: The Hobbit - Battle of the Five Armies (Spoliers)
When Sauron taught the elves how to make the rings of power, he was a prisoner, lacking a power base of his own. By giving the elves rings with which to build their own "empires", he was planning a long game. The rings would build up kingdoms that he would be able to quickly overcome with his own ring of power, allowing him to achieve power quickly once he was in a position to forge his planned Ruling Ring.Patroklos wrote:If the one ring is so powerful all by itself that it makes Sauron unbeatable in the Third Age (as is the fear and purpose of the whole fellowship enterprise) when all the subordinate rings were nonissues why didn't he just create it by itself in the first place and not worry about all the others?
"This is supposed to be a happy occasion... Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who."
-- The King of Swamp Castle, Monty Python and the Holy Grail
"Nothing of consequence happened today. " -- Diary of King George III, July 4, 1776
"This is not bad; this is a conspiracy to remove happiness from existence. It seeks to wrap its hedgehog hand around the still beating heart of the personification of good and squeeze until it is stilled."
-- Chuck Sonnenburg on Voyager's "Elogium"
-- The King of Swamp Castle, Monty Python and the Holy Grail
"Nothing of consequence happened today. " -- Diary of King George III, July 4, 1776
"This is not bad; this is a conspiracy to remove happiness from existence. It seeks to wrap its hedgehog hand around the still beating heart of the personification of good and squeeze until it is stilled."
-- Chuck Sonnenburg on Voyager's "Elogium"
Re: The Hobbit - Battle of the Five Armies (Spoliers)
Was he a prisoner?
I don't think he was a prisoner. In fact the wiki (I know) already has Mordor active again while all the ring crafting is going in.
Yeah but the elves later built up kingdoms with them anyway outside his ring's influence (Lorien/Rivendell) and there was no suggestion that he couldn't have destroyed them conventionally all by himself without his ring. Galandriel outright says that. Sauron makes his ring, the most powerful one, all by himself at Mt. Doom later so he doesn't need the elves for crafting. So why not just do that in the first place? I suppose we could say he didn't know how outright powerful his ring would be and that explains it somewhat. Still, the plot makes more sense if the one rings power is actually to "rule them all" instead of "rule them all, sure, but also makes me invincible too so who gives a shit about that?"
And if Sauron can overwhelm elven kingdoms like Lothlorien who have a ring of power on their side (unlike Eregion) all by his naked finger self again what's the point? The ring just became a new weakness.
http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/AnnatarBy about SA 1500, Sauron put on a fair visage in the Second Age, and calling himself Annatar, the "Lord of Gifts", he befriended the Elvish smiths of Eregion, and counseled them in arts and magic. Not all the Elves trusted him, particularly Lady Galadriel, Elrond, and Gil-galad, High King of the Ñoldor.
I don't think he was a prisoner. In fact the wiki (I know) already has Mordor active again while all the ring crafting is going in.
Yeah but the elves later built up kingdoms with them anyway outside his ring's influence (Lorien/Rivendell) and there was no suggestion that he couldn't have destroyed them conventionally all by himself without his ring. Galandriel outright says that. Sauron makes his ring, the most powerful one, all by himself at Mt. Doom later so he doesn't need the elves for crafting. So why not just do that in the first place? I suppose we could say he didn't know how outright powerful his ring would be and that explains it somewhat. Still, the plot makes more sense if the one rings power is actually to "rule them all" instead of "rule them all, sure, but also makes me invincible too so who gives a shit about that?"
And if Sauron can overwhelm elven kingdoms like Lothlorien who have a ring of power on their side (unlike Eregion) all by his naked finger self again what's the point? The ring just became a new weakness.
Re: The Hobbit - Battle of the Five Armies (Spoliers)
I must have my timeline wrong. I thought that the rings were made after the fall of Numenor.Patroklos wrote:Was he a prisoner?
http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/AnnatarBy about SA 1500, Sauron put on a fair visage in the Second Age, and calling himself Annatar, the "Lord of Gifts", he befriended the Elvish smiths of Eregion, and counseled them in arts and magic. Not all the Elves trusted him, particularly Lady Galadriel, Elrond, and Gil-galad, High King of the Ñoldor.
I don't think he was a prisoner. In fact the wiki (I know) already has Mordor active again while all the ring crafting is going in.
Yeah but the elves later built up kingdoms with them anyway outside his ring's influence (Lorien/Rivendell) and there was no suggestion that he couldn't have destroyed them conventionally all by himself without his ring. Galandriel outright says that. Sauron makes his ring, the most powerful one, all by himself at Mt. Doom later so he doesn't need the elves for crafting. So why not just do that in the first place? I suppose we could say he didn't know how outright powerful his ring would be and that explains it somewhat. Still, the plot makes more sense if the one rings power is actually to "rule them all" instead of "rule them all, sure, but also makes me invincible too so who gives a shit about that?"
And if Sauron can overwhelm elven kingdoms like Lothlorien who have a ring of power on their side (unlike Eregion) all by his naked finger self again what's the point? The ring just became a new weakness.
"This is supposed to be a happy occasion... Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who."
-- The King of Swamp Castle, Monty Python and the Holy Grail
"Nothing of consequence happened today. " -- Diary of King George III, July 4, 1776
"This is not bad; this is a conspiracy to remove happiness from existence. It seeks to wrap its hedgehog hand around the still beating heart of the personification of good and squeeze until it is stilled."
-- Chuck Sonnenburg on Voyager's "Elogium"
-- The King of Swamp Castle, Monty Python and the Holy Grail
"Nothing of consequence happened today. " -- Diary of King George III, July 4, 1776
"This is not bad; this is a conspiracy to remove happiness from existence. It seeks to wrap its hedgehog hand around the still beating heart of the personification of good and squeeze until it is stilled."
-- Chuck Sonnenburg on Voyager's "Elogium"
- Gandalf
- SD.net White Wizard
- Posts: 16351
- Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
- Location: A video store in Australia
Re: The Hobbit - Battle of the Five Armies (Spoliers)
The Ring had other benefits. Since Barad-dûr had been built "using the power of the Ring," at the end of the Second Age the Last Alliance were unable to destroy its foundations because the Ring still existed.Patroklos wrote:So this makes me think of why the One Ring was so important in the first place. If the original plan was to use it as a conduit to corrupt and conquer via the other rings then it appears is usefulness was pretty much moot by the LOTR events. The nine had already been corrupted and coopted, the dwarvish rings did not work as they were supposed to anyway, and the elven rings were not corrupting as intended either after they were cautioned by sensing Sauron's presence. Despite maintaining the nine as the nazgrul its purpose had come and gone.
If the one ring is so powerful all by itself that it makes Sauron unbeatable in the Third Age (as is the fear and purpose of the whole fellowship enterprise) when all the subordinate rings were nonissues why didn't he just create it by itself in the first place and not worry about all the others?
In the end he didn't even need the ring to be victorious, he was well on his way without it before his destruction laid his forces low, but that just begs the question as to why he made it in the first place once again if it just becomes a physical handicap that presumably didn't exist before its creation.
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"
- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist
"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"
- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist
"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin
Re: The Hobbit - Battle of the Five Armies (Spoliers)
I think Gil-Galad and Elendil established conclusively that the Ring didn't make Sauron invincible.Patroklos wrote:Still, the plot makes more sense if the one rings power is actually to "rule them all" instead of "rule them all, sure, but also makes me invincible too so who gives a shit about that?"
"This is supposed to be a happy occasion... Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who."
-- The King of Swamp Castle, Monty Python and the Holy Grail
"Nothing of consequence happened today. " -- Diary of King George III, July 4, 1776
"This is not bad; this is a conspiracy to remove happiness from existence. It seeks to wrap its hedgehog hand around the still beating heart of the personification of good and squeeze until it is stilled."
-- Chuck Sonnenburg on Voyager's "Elogium"
-- The King of Swamp Castle, Monty Python and the Holy Grail
"Nothing of consequence happened today. " -- Diary of King George III, July 4, 1776
"This is not bad; this is a conspiracy to remove happiness from existence. It seeks to wrap its hedgehog hand around the still beating heart of the personification of good and squeeze until it is stilled."
-- Chuck Sonnenburg on Voyager's "Elogium"
Re: The Hobbit - Battle of the Five Armies (Spoliers)
But it did. Without the Ring, Isildur would have looted cold corpse. As it was, Ring anchored Sauron in Middle Earth, allowing him to regenerate later.Ted C wrote:I think Gil-Galad and Elendil established conclusively that the Ring didn't make Sauron invincible.
As for power to dominate other rings being useless, please. 9 absolutely loyal lieutenants led by someone capable of matching boosted Gandalf the White? Do you know how powerful that asset was even if One had no other powers? 7 dwarf kingdoms founded in places where king could enrich himself, not in places good in defence? If not for Gandalf, Smaug and Balrog would enrich Sauron with two absolutely massive treasures for bribing and equipping army. Not an asset either?