The OotS Thread III

[Kuja]

That was my immediate reaction as well. It strikes me that the spells used by the Linears weren't very smart-

True Seeing will only tell you if the block is there or not - okay, it's there.

Detect Magic won't pick up anything unless the gate or something else important is close by - if the block conceals some kind of stairwell or the like further down, (or it's simply shielded) detection won't pick it up.

Locate Object is the worst of the trio. As far as we know, Ditzi's never so much as seen one of the gates, making the spell much less likely to trigger since it requires a "clearly vizualized object" and "you cannot specify a specific item unless you have observed that particular item firsthand (not through divination)."

Hell, none of them even so much as knocked on the damn thing to see if it's hollow. It's rather telling of Nale and Ditzi's reliance on their magic that as soon as basic divination failed they're ready to give up and walk out. Maybe Malack would be a little smarter...and lo and behold, in the final panel Malack's still giving the block a look. Maybe he still suspects something, but he's not in a mood to offer Nale correction after all the arguments.

(And as they leave, Nale is racing one of the fiends out to take the lead again...my lord that guy is fishing for a Darwin.)

[Spekio]

Locate Object is the worst of the trio. As far as we know, Ditzi's never so much as seen one of the gates, making the spell much less likely to trigger since it requires a "clearly vizualized object" and "you cannot specify a specific item unless you have observed that particular item firsthand (not through divination)."

He did work for Xykon while he was on Dorukan's. Perhaps he saw that gate.

[Serafina]

Still a very easy spell to block.

I actually suspect purely physical defenses at this point. Girad is clever enough to recognize that people will know he's an Illusionist, so they will expect the gate to be hidden by Illusions, and bring the right stuff to counter them - but they won't expect using physical camouflage, lead-shielded rooms or other simple things.

That giant "fuck you" message? Clearly works on a whole bunch of people - such as those who expect him to be duplicit like that (or those who already fell for the location in the middle of the desert).

[Ahriman238]

Yeah, see everything the Order said about double-bluffs the last time, except this trick/trap isn't geared for paladins specifically. I'd imagine finding the block would trigger falling rocks though, just to really sell it.

[Kuja]

He did work for Xykon while he was on Dorukan's. Perhaps he saw that gate.

That's a fair point, but consider this as well-

Assuming Ditzi did see Dorukan's gate at some point, he would have seen a giant, foreboding archway marked with arcane sigils and shimmering with arcane power. Off the other end of the scale, Soon's gate was a teeny tiny little thing encapsulated in a decorative gem set atop the back of a throne. I don't recall if we've ever been shown what Girard's gate looks like, but it could be something else entirely - a pool set into a floor somewhere, or inside a big lead ball chained to the ceiling.

[Lord of the Abyss]

I don't recall if we've ever been shown what Girard's gate looks like, but it could be something else entirely - a pool set into a floor somewhere, or inside a big lead ball chained to the ceiling.

The closest we come to seeing it is how it's portrayed in the The Crayons of Time sequence.

[Irbis]

Assuming Ditzi did see Dorukan's gate at some point, he would have seen a giant, foreboding archway marked with arcane sigils and shimmering with arcane power.

Well, to be fair, according to Crayon comic Girard's gate seems to be awfully similar.

BTW, no one pointed out that Nale just just ordered LG casters loaded with magic-detecting and illusion-piercing spells turned on right back into OotS hiding spot? Is that plot railroading?

This is wildly optimistic. They're both going to have low and mid level spells even if they totally exhausted their high level spells, which is in no way established. There are a ton of ways, from scrolls to rings of spell storing, that they still possess large arsenals of high level spells.

Low to middle spells, yes, but these aren't going to be very effective against OotS level party. Most of the backup ways to have a high level spell are prohibitely expensive, too, IMHO.

Moreover, OotS world casters have this completely baffling tendency to make their spells suck by applying metamagic liberally to them, making all of their spells save for occasional big one very weak. At least in Xykon's case it's understandable, as he has really a lot of spells and can turn on metamagic on the fly, but Wizards/Clerics are really gimping themselves with that.

That equation can be changed with a single mid level spell, let alone a high level one. The LG has three high level casters, the OotS has none. Even with seriously depleted arsenals, say 25% of their high level spells and 50% of their mid and low level spells left, that's more than enough when you consider that Trajan was able to solo the OotS fighters. The LG has two CoDzillas on their team and a high level wizard and the OotS has none.

Well, as it is now, Roy can easily solo every LG member present, the only hope to kill him they have is to swarm him with everything they got - which is now possible due to fighting in open space. Yes, Tarquin would probably push Roy out of chokepoint, but he would pay for it, and he still effortlessly trumps them all in open space with proper support.

So, Ditzi and Nale are damn near fresh, Malack's used a bunch of low- and mid-level spells, really the only one that's chewed through his spell list is Durkon, but he has the advantage of being undead now (damage reduction) on top of being a fully-armored dwarf. Malack can just tell him to get in the Order's way and fight defensively and he can still put up one hell of an obstacle.

Nale, unless seriously overoptimized, is now weaker than Elan. Durkon/Malak being undead casters is actually big minus, as Roy now has undeadbane sword and anti-caster feat. While they would conceivably throw summoned fiends on Roy and go after everyone else, I'd expect dumb, proud in their invincibility vampires to go after 'harmless' fighter first.

Eh, I stand by my opinion that fight could easily go either way if Roy's dream about being able to fight Xykon is anywhere near true, but now, OotS will have far smaller chance if anyone on LG detects them (as now they would have to run under fire to take fight to LG, rather than the other way around). Or maybe Nale will go for parley now? Nah, can't happen.

[Imperial Overlord]

Low to middle spells, yes, but these aren't going to be very effective against OotS level party. Most of the backup ways to have a high level spell are prohibitely expensive, too, IMHO.

Blasting isn't going to be overly effective but low and mid level crowd control can change the whole tactical equation, to say nothing of buffs and debuffs. Since Tarquin and Malack run a kingdom and are brutally high level, they can easily afford a expensive high level items and scrolls are pretty damn cheap. And, as has been mentioned, they haven't used that many high level spells. If Roy starts that fight he's going to end up as chunky salsa. At best.

Well, as it is now, Roy can easily solo every LG member present, the only hope to kill him they have is to swarm him with everything they got - which is now possible due to fighting in open space.

This is bullshit. Roy's one failed Will save, not exactly a Fighter's strong point even if Roy's better at it than most of his class, from becoming a vampire's bitch. That's to say nothing of all the damn Cleric levels. The writer is well aware of CoDzila.

Yes, Tarquin would probably push Roy out of chokepoint, but he would pay for it, and he still effortlessly trumps them all in open space with proper support.

Tarquin was able to take being swarmed by most of the OotS and gave better than he got. Roy tries soloing him, let alone taking him on when he's got 2 clerics and a mage backing him and Tarquin will butcher him like a hog.

Nale, unless seriously overoptimized, is now weaker than Elan. Durkon/Malak being undead casters is actually big minus, as Roy now has undeadbane sword and anti-caster feat. While they would conceivably throw summoned fiends on Roy and go after everyone else, I'd expect dumb, proud in their invincibility vampires to go after 'harmless' fighter first.

So we're expecting the vampire clerics to have low wisdom and act stupid despite having a very good idea of Roy's capabilities? That's more than wildly optimistic.

[The Yosemite Bear]

well given the Mario refrence it could be in some pipes guarded by giant venus fly traps, lakes of fire and hallucinogenic mushroom spores...

[Lord of the Abyss]

Nale, unless seriously overoptimized, is now weaker than Elan. Durkon/Malak being undead casters is actually big minus, as Roy now has undeadbane sword and anti-caster feat. While they would conceivably throw summoned fiends on Roy and go after everyone else, I'd expect dumb, proud in their invincibility vampires to go after 'harmless' fighter first.

So we're expecting the vampire clerics to have low wisdom and act stupid despite having a very good idea of Roy's capabilities? That's more than wildly optimistic.

We also don't know how well Roy's feat works outside of what was literally a wish fulfillment fantasy. Of course it worked awesomely well against a "Xykon" who was just thrown up by the spell for Roy to beat down; that doesn't mean that actual casters are going to be defeated as effortlessly. Especially not when there's more than one of them.

[LadyTevar]

I can't believe they fell for such a blatant trick.

[Lord of the Abyss]

I can't believe they fell for such a blatant trick.

Well, Nale could be worried it's a trap and that's why he's leaving so suddenly. And I wouldn't be surprised if Malack is suspicious, he sure looks like it as Kuja said. But nobody in the present party except maybe the Drow is likely to be on Nale's side enough to try to correct any mistakes he makes; Malack already let him walk into a trap. I'm sure Malack would be quite satisfied to report to Tarquin "and the fool didn't even check to see if anything was inside!"

[Raesene]

895 is up

I spy with my little eye...

[Vaporous]

Makes sense. Can't protect it, might as well burn it down and try again at the next one.

Of course, you have no idea where it is and you risk all of creation, but these are minor details.

[Kuja]

*high-fives Serafina*

Called it. We so called it. Way to go Roy. And Malack. Man, if he actually gave a shit about Nale the Order would be totally screwed.

[Crazedwraith]

It's partly he doesn't give a shit about Nale, but also he's presumably keeping his last promise to alive!Durkon not to harm the order.

[Kuja]

In this case it doesn't hurt that one reinforces the other.

[Serafina]

*high-fives Serafina*

Called it. We so called it. Way to go Roy. And Malack. Man, if he actually gave a shit about Nale the Order would be totally screwed.

*High-fives back*

Now we just have to hope that that destroying it wont blow up the world.
Oh also - nice way to show off Roys rank in Knowledge (Architecture) again.

[Spekio]

There is one more gate besides Girard´s, right? If so, we should be fine.

[Simon_Jester]

But how is Roy going to achieve his goal without getting killed?

[Note lack of spoilers! ]

[Irbis]

Told you OotS was completely screwed and would be detected in that location

Though I expected Malack to 'keep' his promise by pointing them out but not really participating in the fight, causing Nale to lose badly. Oh well, Evil Cleric actually keeps the spirit of the oath? Guess author is running out of pages.

Next prediction - Tarquin and his whole band dukes it out with Xykon maybe even possibly winning... only to learn it was all for naught. Cue Tarquin exploding with rage and forcing showdown between all three factions at last gate

[Napoleon the Clown]

Malack seems to be pretty honorable, on the whole. I don't find it the least bit surprising he'd keep to the spirit of his oath. You wouldn't lie to someone you respect, especially if you're Lawful - which I suspect Malack is. And he does respect Durkon. There's no good reason to reveal the Order, it would just result in breaking his final promise to Durkon.

I kind of figured something along these lines was going on, Girard was an illusionist and that probably also means giant troll.

[Bedlam]

I'm sort of wondering if there was some sort of one shot compulsion on the gate given how it seems to effect Nale (who probably has the lowest Will save in the party) his not even thinking that the message might be a bluff seems rather over the top.

[Lord of the Abyss]

Though I expected Malack to 'keep' his promise by pointing them out but not really participating in the fight, causing Nale to lose badly. Oh well, Evil Cleric actually keeps the spirit of the oath? Guess author is running out of pages.

Keep in mind that first, given how weakened the Order is Nale might win - and Malack pretty clearly doesn't want Nale to win, at anything. And second, the one being besides himself in Nale's group that Malack actually cares about, Vampire!Durkon, is presently vulnerable due to lacking a coffin/sarcophagus. So why risk Durkon in an unnecessary fight for a mission Malack doesn't even care about?

[Irbis]

Keep in mind that first, given how weakened the Order is Nale might win - and Malack pretty clearly doesn't want Nale to win, at anything. And second, the one being besides himself in Nale's group that Malack actually cares about, Vampire!Durkon, is presently vulnerable due to lacking a coffin/sarcophagus. So why risk Durkon in an unnecessary fight for a mission Malack doesn't even care about?

But without wampires, Nale has only Dritzi as a help. That would make him outnumbered 2:1. Why risk? Because he wants to see Nale dead? I expected him to point out OotS, watch Nale wounded, panicking, then when Nale asks for healing reply:

"Harm... Oh, wait, have you meant healing for living? Too bad, oh, no difference, you're dead now, too!" then withdraw and report casually to Tarquin 'Nale blindly walked into harm's way' which would be technically true

I guess Malack is too straight for that, though.