"Game of Thrones" on HBO (spoilers)

[Thanas]

Just because they supported Renly does not mean that they will support Daenerys. The Iron Islands are worthless in the field. I really do not see how you can arrive at the 100.000 men.

[Mr Bean]

Just because they supported Renly does not mean that they will support Daenerys. The Iron Islands are worthless in the field. I really do not see how you can arrive at the 100.000 men.

The simple fact the supported Renly makes my point for me, they are ambitious and they are powerful, backing the crown against the foreign invaders wins them nothing, backing the foreign invaders against the Usurper wins them much. Mace Tyrell has always dreamed of his blood becoming royal and marrying Willas or Garlan Tyrell to Dany gets that in one stroke.

By all the laws of the land Renly was not the rightful king, the younger brother, don't discount personal motivations because Mace would have backed Dany in a heartbeat. He wanted a grandson or granddaughter of his on the Throne and he was quite willing to back any plot that achieved that purpose for him.

[Thanas]

The simple fact the supported Renly makes my point for me,

No, it doesn't. Renly had personal support as well as his own house to call upon. Daenerys comes from a different dynasty, doesn't have the benefits of the Starks/Tully's waging their own war etc.

[Crazedwraith]

Just because they supported Renly does not mean that they will support Daenerys. The Iron Islands are worthless in the field. I really do not see how you can arrive at the 100.000 men.

The simple fact the supported Renly makes my point for me, they are ambitious and they are powerful, backing the crown against the foreign invaders wins them nothing, backing the foreign invaders against the Usurper wins them much. Mace Tyrell has always dreamed of his blood becoming royal and marrying Willas or Garlan Tyrell to Dany gets that in one stroke.

It'd have to be Willas or Loras.

Garlan was already married and was one of the nicer characters. Though we saw very little of him, he was supportive of Sansa and Tyrion.

On the other hand if the Martells flocked to Dany. Highgarden most certainly won't.

[Guardsman Bass]

Garlan was already married and was one of the nicer characters. Though we saw very little of him, he was supportive of Sansa and Tyrion.

On the other hand if the Martells flocked to Dany. Highgarden most certainly won't.

Spoiler

Garlan seemed like a nice guy (and a bad-ass, considering his stunt in Renly's armor, and his whole "training by fighting against four or more men" situation), but he might have been involved in the Tyrell assassination of Joffrey. Of course, that could have just been Margaery and Olenna - we don't know how many Tyrells were involved.

As for Highgarden and the Tyrells, their grudge isn't against the Martells in general - it was against Oberyn Martell, who crippled Willas Tyrell in a tourney. Mace Tyrell didn't have any problems with Doran Martell coming north to the King's Landing in A Storm of Swords, and the Tyrells and Martells both fought for Aerys in the War of the Usurper.

The Tyrells are a bit of a wild card, though. They're clearly rather opportunistic, but they also willingly backed a usurper against Joffrey (Renly) in the absence of other allies from the Great Houses, and only came around to the Lannister side after Littlefinger sold them on the marriage alliance to Joffrey. Mace really wants his daughter to be a queen.

[Crazedwraith]

Spoiler

I got the impression the deal of Oberyn was only the latest incident in a long history of enmity between the two areas.

Mace Tyrell was actually quite huffy when they thought it was Doran coming. If I recall he has a line a long the lines of; 'How's he's getting here then? No-one's asked to come over MY LANDs. I have no problem with him coming over the reach as long he asks permission first!' Which in politician speak for 'I hate his guts'.

Of course you're right, Garlan may only seem like a nice guy owing to his distinct lack of focus and screen time.

[Guardsman Bass]

Spoiler

I'm pretty sure he continued with something like, "Well, if it's just Doran, it's okay".

There is definitely some bad history between the Reach and Dorne (before the Seven Kingdoms were unified, they fought back and forth), but it doesn't keep them from being on the same side.

[Mr Bean]

The simple fact the supported Renly makes my point for me,

No, it doesn't. Renly had personal support as well as his own house to call upon. Daenerys comes from a different dynasty, doesn't have the benefits of the Starks/Tully's waging their own war etc.

They became Rebels the instant they declared for Renly, remember Renly thought Joff was the legitimate heir, he was not part of Stannis and Jon Arryans councils on the subject and Ned Stark never told him.

What do you think is going to happen when Doran declares for her? Your talking with absolute knowledge of an omniscient narrator, something you should not be claiming considering both Robert and Daenerys thought they could pull it off. Know who else thought they could pull it off? Doren Martell and Varys both thought they could pull it off. If in universe everyone thinks they would be a highly serious threat who are you to disregard all of these statements for a curt dismissal of their chances. You speak of Renly's personal support, the Stormlands are worth as much as Sunspear and it's vassal lords. Never mind the fact that oh Spoiler

Her future Spymaster is running her enemies intelligence network, Varys entire purpose is orchestrate a return of the Targaryen to power and he's in charge of them spy network! Think of the advantages if the head of your local CIA/KGB is working for the enemy and you have no clue.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

The books do a more reasonable job of explaining why the Dothraki were a threat to the Seven Kingdoms (page 388 of my copy of Game of Thrones) ; it was largely a morale issue. Whereas most of the crown's armies would just be peasant levies, with no more than a tenth being knights, all 40,000 Dothraki in the khalasar were trained warriors from infancy, and because of this disparity it was expected that most of the crown's men, aside from professional soldiers and knights, would break and run on the first charge by 40,000 mounted savages with an unmatched reputation for fierceness. On the other hand, Dothraki are 'utterly fearless', and we know from the battle of Qohor that Dothraki are capable of sustaining enormous casualties without losing coherence or routing. If you combine this with the fact that the Dothraki would be led by a legitimate heir to the Iron Throne, it makes by far the most sense to me of any explanation for a Dothraki victory.

The book also mentioned that Dothraki bows had much longer range than Westerosi equivalents, and that the average Dothraki was a better horseman than almost any knight, but it would seem to me that these advantages pale in the face of the fact that the Dothraki disdain armour and thrusting weapons.

[Surlethe]

Spoiler

Her future Spymaster is running her enemies intelligence network, Varys entire purpose is orchestrate a return of the Targaryen to power and he's in charge of them spy network! Think of the advantages if the head of your local CIA/KGB is working for the enemy and you have no clue.

WTF? Where is this in the books, especially given that Varys orchestrated her assassination attempt at Robert's behest?

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

WTF? Where is this in the books, especially given that Varys orchestrated her assassination attempt at Robert's behest?

He was shown collaborating with Illyrio several episodes ago, and Spoiler

Varys had Tyrion sent to Illyrio to counsel Dany after he escaped from the black cells.

[Mr Bean]

Spoiler

Her future Spymaster is running her enemies intelligence network, Varys entire purpose is orchestrate a return of the Targaryen to power and he's in charge of them spy network! Think of the advantages if the head of your local CIA/KGB is working for the enemy and you have no clue.

WTF? Where is this in the books, especially given that Varys orchestrated her assassination attempt at Robert's behest?

Spoiler time Spoiler

In the books Varys and Littlefinger managed to talk the King down from using Faceless men who are pretty much a sure if expensive thing as far as Assassins go and the attack was clumsy enough and He warned Jorah of who was going to be doing it that the initial failed assassination attempt would put the target on their guard. Further Varys served the Aerys well and did his best to serve him. The books are not specific on WHY Illerio is supporting the Targs but it is specific in that he is supporting them whole heartily and has gone through several very expensive steps to ensure her survival. Varys is a Targ loyalist, why who knows? But we know he is one.

[Thanas]

Spoiler

Or at least pretends to be one. Who knows his endgame?

[CaptainChewbacca]

I thought the big deal with the Dothraki was also that they're all consummate horse-archers, and so you'd be facing a host of 40,000 mounted troops versus armies where about 10% of them are mounted.

A sort of 'mongolian invasion model' if you will.

[The Grim Squeaker]

I thought the big deal with the Dothraki was also that they're all consummate horse-archers, and so you'd be facing a host of 40,000 mounted troops versus armies where about 10% of them are mounted.

A sort of 'mongolian invasion model' if you will.

With said mounted troops excelling at terror tactics (Dothraki screamers, the bells..), which would make dogmeat out of conscripted peasant levies.
Whether a knight can beat a Dothraki warrior on foot is irrelevant, considering that knights (hedge knights included) make up a tiny proportion of the armies, (not to mention that a knight on horseback would probably be cut down at range by a Dothraki riding away on horseback. Depending on the penetrative power of the bows, and whether the knight's horses have barding).

[Thanas]

I thought the big deal with the Dothraki was also that they're all consummate horse-archers, and so you'd be facing a host of 40,000 mounted troops versus armies where about 10% of them are mounted.

A sort of 'mongolian invasion model' if you will.

Which failed in real life.

Also, the mongols had:
- disciplined corps with professional officers/organization
- siege trains
- Signals that allowed them to redirect their forces at will
- A lot of footmen to back them up

[Mr Bean]

Spoiler

Or at least pretends to be one. Who knows his endgame?

Well... Spoiler

The endgame is not him as King we know that for sure, beyond that we only have his actions to go by, the ones he takes openly and the ones he takes in secret we know about from reading the shadows on the wall. His secret actions are of a Targ loyalist, his open actions are to support the realm, the best view we get of him is helping free Tyrion because several things don't add up on when he was "forced" to help him escape by Jamie.

[Thanas]

Spoiler

While also arranging for the murder of the Lannister's best strategist and strongest obstacle to a Targaeryen return on the way. Yeah, I know.

However, I cannot help but shake the feeling that there is something more at play than "help Targaeryens"

[Surlethe]

Thanks for the reminders, guys.

[Mr Bean]

Spoiler

While also arranging for the murder of the Lannister's best strategist and strongest obstacle to a Targaeryen return on the way. Yeah, I know.

However, I cannot help but shake the feeling that there is something more at play than "help Targaeryens"

Everyone suspects that, but people also suspect lots of things because George is that kind of person Spoiler

There are the easy to confirm things that say for example that Jaqen H'ghar becomes "The Alchemist" in Clash of kings and then in Feast for Crows we see his new form who then murders and assumes the identity of Pate a novice of the citadel. If you don't pay attention such things slip by but the description of "The Alchemist" in Feast of Crows is identical to the man Jaqen turns himself into before leaving Arya behind, then later we see Mr Pate die only to see him alive at the end of the book.

Of course the speculation then comes into play that Jaqen is in fact Syrio but that's just a fan theory at this point (Which George loves but he's always been chagy about saying what happen to Syrio and refuses to say if he's alive or dead, most likely he's dead but George sometimes hears fan theory's he likes and hen sets out to reinforce them.

Varys falls into the same camp, and there are some CRAZY theorys about him, come to think of it I'm going to go see what the lastest fan theories are

[Stargate Nerd]

I thought the big deal with the Dothraki was also that they're all consummate horse-archers, and so you'd be facing a host of 40,000 mounted troops versus armies where about 10% of them are mounted.

A sort of 'mongolian invasion model' if you will.

The Dothraki are nothing like the Mongols. The Mongols made use of lances, maces, siege weapons and armor in addition to bows and slashing weapons. They had better discipline than European armies as well.

The Dothraki at best fit the Mongol stereotype of a mindless nomad horde which onlt is threatening because of it's sheer size.

Which failed in real life.

p

What do you mean by that ?

[Thanas]

The Mongol invasion failed both in Europe and in the Middle East. Isn't that clear enough?

[Stargate Nerd]

The Mongol invasion failed both in Europe and in the Middle East. Isn't that clear enough?

Define failed. The Middle East was under Mongol domination for centuries. And last I checked the Mongols successfully defeated Eastern and Central Europe before turming back on their own volition.

[Pu-239]

I was under the impression that was more due to political reasons/infighting between the descendants of Genghis. They did manage to sack Baghdad and crush the Russians for a time after all.

EDIT: In reply to Thanas. +What StargateNerd said.

[Elfdart]

How much more killing of horses and dogs goes on in these books? That last episode was the second time I had to sleep on the couch for snickering when an animal was killed in this show (the first was when the idiot daughter's dire wolf puppy was stabbed). My SO was more upset over the dead horse than the dead Spoiler

Sean Bean