Iron Man vs Thor...

SCRawl · Post by **SCRawl** » 2007-09-04 04:44pm

Ted C wrote:If I recall my Marvel Universe guides correctly, Asgardian tissue is several times denser than ordinary human tissue. This means that while Thor isn't exactly bullet proof, bullet penetration would be comparable to shooting a tree.

That jives with my recollection, too. It also means that while getting hit in the chest with buckshot isn't very likely to do more than piss Thor off, getting a rifle shot to the melon could be fatal. Hardly the way I'd like to see him get taken out, but I think the writers have a little more sense than that.

Stile · Post by **Stile** » 2007-09-04 05:38pm

There's a scene during The Secret War series where Thor is outside during a Super-Hurricane and the rain-drops are described as being like small arms fire. He just laps it up and goes for more.

SCRawl · Post by **SCRawl** » 2007-09-04 06:15pm

Stile wrote:There's a scene during The Secret War series where Thor is outside during a Super-Hurricane and the rain-drops are described as being like small arms fire. He just laps it up and goes for more.

I recall that scene. It was the Thing who made the reference -- something like "...that rain is hitting like magnum slugs..." I wouldn't take it to have literal, quantitative meaning in this case.

Lonestar · Post by **Lonestar** » 2007-09-04 07:53pm

Skelron wrote:
Except Asgard is now floating above the US, where will Iron Man deport him?

Norway.

Lonestar · Post by **Lonestar** » 2007-09-04 08:18pm

Lonestar wrote:
Norway.

Ghetto Edit(Because I've thought this through some more):

Thor has essentially decided to take a chunk of land and create a Nationstate(unless you think he's going to pay property taxes on that thing) and have it floating around in the middle of America. Tony(That is, the United States Government) can make the argument that he needs to take him, and his floating kingdom, elsewhere. It would be a Bad Thing to have the home of the Gods floating around within American territory, being untouchable by the law.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2007-09-04 08:20pm

So how far up exactly does american territory extend?

Lonestar · Post by **Lonestar** » 2007-09-04 08:30pm

Batman wrote:So how far up exactly does american territory extend?

About the same altitude it becomes legal for satellite overflights, I imagine.

Suffice to say, Asgard is not that high up. A farmer can drive up with a ladder and climb on.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2007-09-04 08:46pm

Asguard is a nationstate, by purchasing said land, they can now claim it as being the "Embassy Grounds"

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2007-09-04 08:59pm

Lonestar wrote:
Batman wrote:So how far up exactly does american territory extend?
About the same altitude it becomes legal for satellite overflights, I imagine.

I seriously doubt anybody ever bothered to set that down in writing, in the real OR the Marvel world.
Oh, and TYB, five in favour of Thor's niece collecting Stark's soul.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2007-09-04 09:02pm

The Yosemite Bear wrote:Asguard is a nationstate, by purchasing said land, they can now claim it as being the "Embassy Grounds"

Fuck embassy grounds. They're genuinely foreign soil.

As you said it's a different nation state

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2007-09-04 09:51pm

Thor is an old school guy so they should settle it in an old school fashion.

Once he has levelled DC and broken the US military they can sit down and sign a treaty giving him the land.

Crom · Post by **Crom** » 2007-09-05 05:51am

I'm confused why Tony Stark still has all of his authority post-WWH. I'm actually surprised that he isn't dead or, at least, wiser for the experience of picking fights with people outside his weight class.

Ford Prefect · Post by **Ford Prefect** » 2007-09-05 08:20am

He is clearly insane.

Mobius · Post by **Mobius** » 2007-09-05 08:27am

Ultron AI in Extremis?

Lord of the Abyss · Post by **Lord of the Abyss** » 2007-09-05 09:41am

Batman wrote:
Lonestar wrote:
Batman wrote:So how far up exactly does american territory extend?
About the same altitude it becomes legal for satellite overflights, I imagine.
I seriously doubt anybody ever bothered to set that down in writing, in the real OR the Marvel world.

A somewhat related Straight Dope column that this reminded me of. Specifically this part :

Cecil Adams wrote:Even on a national scale usque ad coelum isn't what it used to be. A 1967 treaty declared that the "exploration and use of outer space, including the moon and other celestial bodies . . . shall be the province of all mankind." Though the frontier of outer space was not defined, some experts argue that it begins about 90 kilometers above the earth's surface. This is the lowest level at which orbital flight is practical, and it's also out of range of most nations' guns.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2007-09-05 10:37am

Crom wrote:I'm confused why Tony Stark still has all of his authority post-WWH. I'm actually surprised that he isn't dead or, at least, wiser for the experience of picking fights with people outside his weight class.

He and El Presidente are golfing buddies.

Skelron · Post by **Skelron** » 2007-09-05 01:02pm

What makes it worse for Tony is, he is seriously peshing off the guy that, if we take Avengers V JLA into account, (Which is cannon to both lines) is the guy who could most likely restart the Civil War. Remember how the Marvel heros responded when supes finally put Thor down, they went crazy, establishing that Thor is... an Icon to the Marvelverse heros he's the big guy.

If Cap is the brains Thor was the... dependable Muscle, hes the guy who always came through in the end, he's the guy who when your back is against the wall you REALLY wanted to see Thor flying to your rescue. So seriously coming on all high and mighty to Thor seems to be the best way to restart the whole mess, and this time with a god as the leader of your opposing faction.

Seriously, can anyone tell me one thing Tony Stark has done right since becoming leader of Shield, one thing where he hasn't managed to screw the pooch somehow?

Jason · Post by **Jason** » 2007-09-05 01:04pm

SCRawl wrote:
Ted C wrote:If I recall my Marvel Universe guides correctly, Asgardian tissue is several times denser than ordinary human tissue. This means that while Thor isn't exactly bullet proof, bullet penetration would be comparable to shooting a tree.
That jives with my recollection, too. It also means that while getting hit in the chest with buckshot isn't very likely to do more than piss Thor off, getting a rifle shot to the melon could be fatal. Hardly the way I'd like to see him get taken out, but I think the writers have a little more sense than that.

Thor has been shown taking high calibre gunshots from airplanes. I can check on the issue if you want.

Also, anyone who has endured the punishment he has over the years ought to clearly be far more than bulletproof. I believe he was in the center of the sun in "Atlantis Attacks!" circa 1989 or so with no damage.

SCRawl · Post by **SCRawl** » 2007-09-05 01:27pm

Jason wrote:
SCRawl wrote:
Ted C wrote:If I recall my Marvel Universe guides correctly, Asgardian tissue is several times denser than ordinary human tissue. This means that while Thor isn't exactly bullet proof, bullet penetration would be comparable to shooting a tree.
That jives with my recollection, too. It also means that while getting hit in the chest with buckshot isn't very likely to do more than piss Thor off, getting a rifle shot to the melon could be fatal. Hardly the way I'd like to see him get taken out, but I think the writers have a little more sense than that.
Thor has been shown taking high calibre gunshots from airplanes. I can check on the issue if you want.

Also, anyone who has endured the punishment he has over the years ought to clearly be far more than bulletproof. I believe he was in the center of the sun in "Atlantis Attacks!" circa 1989 or so with no damage.

As with the capabilities of many other comic book heroes, Thor's have varied wildly over the years. One day he's taking on a Celestial, the next day he gets brought to his knees by the Wrecker. It's like that. If you read back a little further, I pointed out that it was one particular creative team which had made it part of their "canon" that Asgardians were not bulletproof. I also mentioned that I wasn't happy about this choice, and that it had been reversed by subsequent writers. (I don't even know if this vulnerability was explored in the pages of the comics; the comment was made out of universe.)

In other words, I don't need to be convinced that, in the past (or, indeed, the present), Thor has proved to be capable of resisting this weapon or that payload.

Jason · Post by **Jason** » 2007-09-05 01:41pm

Ah, OK, I misunderstood. Sorry for the confusion on my part.

SCRawl · Post by **SCRawl** » 2007-09-05 02:04pm

Jason wrote:Ah, OK, I misunderstood. Sorry for the confusion on my part.

No problem.

Something else just clicked in the old memory banks. I recall an issue of the Avengers, in which took place a brief punch-up between Iron Man and Thor. It was during the early 1980s, I think, and part of the plot was that both of them were being influenced by Moondragon's telepathy. Anyways, she made them both more aggressive than usual, which brought out Tony's natural dislike for what he felt was Thor's overdeveloped sense of entitlement (being a god will do that to a guy), and it came to blows. Well, blow, really; Iron Man clobbered Thor, knocking him through several large columns (I think), making some sort of comment about how, with the right power source, he could take anyone out. A few frames later, Thor returned to the field, saying that had Iron Man pressed his advantage he might have prevailed, but that now he was surely doomed. The usual sparks of lightning accompanied this threat. At about this time, one of the other Avengers pointed out that maybe someone was controlling their actions, and maybe they ought to see to that rather than kill each other.

It's an old memory, but I'm pretty sure that it's accurate, at least in its essentials.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2007-09-05 02:54pm

SCRawl wrote:One day he's taking on a Celestial, the next day he gets brought to his knees by the Wrecker.

I was under the impression that Thor was in a weakened state when the Wrecker took him down, and in a rematch wiped him out with ease.

Yeah, I just double checked Wikipedia; Loki empowered the Wrecker, and he fought a "greatly depleted Thor" and managed to win.

SCRawl · Post by **SCRawl** » 2007-09-05 03:02pm

Praxis wrote:
SCRawl wrote:One day he's taking on a Celestial, the next day he gets brought to his knees by the Wrecker.
I was under the impression that Thor was in a weakened state when the Wrecker took him down, and in a rematch wiped him out with ease.

Yeah, I just double checked Wikipedia; Loki empowered the Wrecker, and he fought a "greatly depleted Thor" and managed to win.

Then I clearly picked a bad example. I'll state my point more clearly: a normal-powered Thor -- or any character, for that matter -- will vary in capabilities from writer to writer, depending on the needs of the plot.

Post by **Steve** » 2007-09-05 05:18pm

This comic is giving me more "JMS Does Not Like Civil War's Outcome" vibes. His Spidey inner monologue from the final ASM Civil War comic seemed to directly argue in the face of Cap's ignomious surrender in CW #7 and now he's making Tony look nasty and vicious when he has Tony almost goose-stepping with that "you're either for the government, with the government, or you're against the government" spiel.... which is in real direct contradiction with how Tony treated Nova in Nova #2 and #3 (he gave him 24 hours to decide what to do, blasted the Thunderbolts for attacking Nova, seemed generally sympathetic and supportive, etc.).

I wonder if the Civil War dissenters in Marvel's writing staff are waging a little "Revolt of the Writers" and intentionally making Iron Man into a dick as their way of protesting the editors' decisions on the outcome of Civil War.

Lonestar · Post by **Lonestar** » 2007-09-05 05:49pm

Steve wrote:This comic is giving me more "JMS Does Not Like Civil War's Outcome" vibes.

You're talking about a man who had Dr. Doom monologue about how evil the United States was because of Global Warming.