StarDestroyer.Net BBS

I truly get what Lucas was trying to do; it was supposed to be a first step down the path of damnation and it is clearly phrased and framed as being horrible and wrong. Thing is, Anakin's still supposed to be somewhat sympathetic and a hero. To quote Tywin Lannister "heroes don't kill children". Having Anakin kill children means that he can be seen as a villain even before he falls off the deep end, which makes it easy to wonder whether there was anything worth redeeming.

The sad thing is that there were at least two other instances in the EU that provided a better template of keeping the darkness of the action while not compromising Anakin's sympathy.

1.) The Clone Wars 2003-2005 miniseries: On Nelvaan Anakin encounters scientists performing Josef Mengele style medical experiments on innocent Nelvaanians and slaughters them in a fury. It's still framed as a dark act but the fact that the villains are monsters rather than including women and children makes it somewhat easier to accept.

2.) Jedi Quest: Anakin encounters a slaver from his youth (Krayn.) Karyn had taken away the mother of one of Anakin's friends and I believe he may not even remember it when confronted. Anakin and Krayn face off at the end of the issue and Anakin kills him. Thing is it's left ambiguous whether it was self defense or if Anakin murdered Krayn for what he's done.

I think that the situation could have worked if it was just a random gang of thugs (hell you could even bring back Sebulba and make it his revenge; the guy's established as being nasty and the EU gave him an extended rap sheet. He might still be nursing a grudge and when given the information he decides to abduct Shmi to lure Anakin into a confrontation. Anakin arrives too late to save her, and kills Sebulba and his goons). Bam. You get the same thing (Anakin is one step closer to falling) without the "killed women and children" part.

This is perhaps more the view of a fan than a casual viewer. Someone who might watch these movies wants probably wants to see Anakin - and those around him - fail at least once in a clear way before the full turn to evil.

Darth Yan wrote: ↑2022-06-23 05:53pm I truly get what Lucas was trying to do; it was supposed to be a first step down the path of damnation and it is clearly phrased and framed as being horrible and wrong. Thing is, Anakin's still supposed to be somewhat sympathetic and a hero. To quote Tywin Lannister "heroes don't kill children". Having Anakin kill children means that he can be seen as a villain even before he falls off the deep end, which makes it easy to wonder whether there was anything worth redeeming.

Agreed. At least in my social group (some of whom were just casual viewers) before the prequels we always had the impression that Anakin was a genuinely good person with his fall being something tragic and unexpected. TPM was fine in that respect since Anakin was a young kid and all that.

However, by halfway through AOTC Anakin had already become a women/child killer during a homicidal rampage, compared them all to animals and slaughtering like animals, and basically covered it up (apart from telling Padme and Palpatine). Arguably his actions were worse in ROTS... but let me repeat; he was already a child killer before then, all that changed was his motivations, and feeling less guilty about it. It's rather hard to sympathise with someone like that...

Well unless you are Padme, in which case you shrug your shoulders, help sweep things under the rug, marry him and have kids.

I remember when watching ROTS in theatres that during the scene where Padme learns Anakin killed the younglings and she acts all surprised and hurt... quite a few members of the audience ended up just chuckling while saying "what?!?!"

Not exactly the response Lucas was aiming for, I'm sure.

If the kidnappers had just been comprised of armed adults and Anakin had killed them in a rage that would have been more than sufficient, and Padme's reaction would have made a lot more sense.

The overall problem of the prequels is that unless we watch the tv shows, movie wise all we see is Anakin go from goofy (if heroic) child, to angsty teenager who slaughters children, disobeys orders and gets his hands chopped off, to angry/desperate adult who kills (literally) disarmed prisoners, joins the bad guy and slaughters yet more children before choking his wife, having his remaining limbs chopped off and being burned to a crisp. We don't really get to see all that much of Anakin being a good person post TPM, so it doesn't come across that he fell, it comes across that he was always an asshole. Which wasn't the impression I got from the OT, and I'm pretty sure wasn't what Lucas was aiming for.

change a line, and the scence is better:

"I killed them, I killed them all. And not just the men, but when they attacked me, the women and children too!"

He did it, he lost himself to it, but he wasn't going to, and probably regrets it.

Especially as he KNEW there was something wrong with what he did, He fucking says so. 'I'm a Jedi. I know I'm better than this.'

Instead, we got: "They're animals! And I slaughtered them like animals!"

And Padme mentally saying to herself: "OMG, that's so hawt!"

NecronLord wrote: ↑2022-06-24 11:46am This is perhaps more the view of a fan than a casual viewer. Someone who might watch these movies wants probably wants to see Anakin - and those around him - fail at least once in a clear way before the full turn to evil.

And I think it maybe overestimates how much weight the casual viewer puts on it. In my experience people generally just glossed over it or actively defended Anakin killing the subhumans if they bothered remembering.

You'd think they'd have gotten the message it was a bad thing. Even the film makes it clear Anakin went too far.

Darth Yan wrote: ↑2022-06-26 02:56pm You'd think they'd have gotten the message it was a bad thing. Even the film makes it clear Anakin went too far.

For fun, during this thread I had a conversation with a friend who is most a casual viewer:

“Was Anakin evil after killing the children in AOTC?”
“Wait, he did that?”
“Ya, remember? He said he killed the women and children too, they were animals and he slaughtered them like animals”
“Well, it depends on what people think is evil, didn’t he only do it cause his mom was killed by them?”
“Yep”
“Well he had lost control of himself, so maybe not?”
“So, hypothetically if some people kidnap and kill one of my relatives and I slaughter their entire neighborhood in the revenge, including the women and children, then cover it up and only told you, would you still consider me a good person?”
“… well…. when you put it that way, ya that’s bad!”

“And what do you think of Padme marrying him and having kids?”
“She was in love with him, and wasn’t really thinking about it so I guess it makes sense? And it’s a bad love story? Plus she’s hot”
“She married him and had kids [i{after[/i] he confessed to her about the slaughtering children like animals thing, so clearly that wasn’t a dealbreaker for her, right?“
“… ya that’s f$&ked up”

Obviously just one sample, but I imagine this to be a fairly typical response.

I think a lot of this is because the movie just sort of glosses the whole thing over and goes right to the fighting and marriage, with it only being mentioned briefly by Palpatine after Anakin kills Dooku.

So a lot of casual movie goers are aware of it, they just don’t really think about the implications given all the other crap going on.

They definitely missed a trick in not having Obi-Wan find out at some point, and making the massacre a bigger part of the story.

Gandalf wrote: ↑2022-06-26 08:42pm They definitely missed a trick in not having Obi-Wan find out at some point, and making the massacre a bigger part of the story.

This actually kind of reminds me of that scene in “The Room” where Lisa’s mom casually mentioned she’s dying of breast cancer, only for Lisa to be like “whatever” and then it’s never brought up again. Plot twist!

Padme probably has several issues of her own which caused her to let the 'Sandpeople killing' slip

In order -
#1 - In the novel for AOTC, it says she's lonely. She says as much to her sister, and I think her mother
#2 - A mild form of PTSD (and just stress in general) - Watching a close friend die when someone blows up her ship, then killer worms.
#3 - Hero Worship for Anakin - She literally woke up with killer worms about to do her in, and Anakin appears like an wrathful diety and kills them.
#4 - She was having a very good time with Anakin on Naboo
Conjecture - #4b - Anakin might have (subconsciously and without meaning to) been using the Force on Padme
#5 - Extreme Sympathy for Anakin/Love is blind - If she was already falling in love with Anakin, well, people have turned blind eyes to people doing worse.
#6 - More Stress - q.v Genosis, and the Republic falling into a Civil War
#7 - Extreme Relief - Anakin surviving despite being serious hurt.

Add it up - Stress - Lonely - Hot Guy (who is obsessed with her) who she enjoys spending time with - Relief

You get someone marrying someone they shouldn't have. Happens all the fucking time in real life.
Quite frankly, if it wasn't Anakin, and for the war, this had 'probable abusive marriage' written all over it.

It wasn't well conveyed and it still makes Anakin too unsympathetic in my mind.

Gandalf wrote: ↑2022-06-26 08:42pm They definitely missed a trick in not having Obi-Wan find out at some point, and making the massacre a bigger part of the story.

At least one fan script has Obi Wan Ahsoka, and A'Sharad Hett in it. They all learn and the consequences are pretty bad (as in "A'Sharad falls to the dark side and tries to lead an attack on the Skywalkers" bad). Obi Wan's forced to defeat him, and A'Sharad (having lost his followers) leaves, taking some satisfaction in realizing that Luke will avenge them.

The final exchange goes like this.

A'Sharad: He....will avenge us?

Obi Wan: You have my word.

A'Sharad Hett: Good enough.