How should the Clone Wars have been Done?

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KraytKing
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Re: How should the Clone Wars have been Done?

Post by KraytKing »

Crazedwraith wrote: 2021-09-22 05:08am
KraytKing wrote: 2021-09-21 07:02pm No, hold on a minute. When did we decide that Palpatine's plan had to be 100% infallible? He is trying to overthrow the Republic and destroy the entire Jedi Order in one fell swoop, after the Jedi have been the sole visible representation of the Force in the galaxy for a thousand years and the most powerful for tens of thousands. Can he not be impressive without planning for literally every possible eventuality? If he destroys 70% of the Jedi Order in a few days of bloodletting, including the Temple, and has at the end of it sole control of a militarized state in control of most of the galaxy, then he has still won. The remaining Jedi can be hunted down easily enough while he secures his domain.
I didn't say Palpatine's plan had to be 100% infallible. I said he had no interest in presenting the clones with a moral dilemma and trusting they'll eliminate the Jedi for him because apparently they will inevitably hate them. Why would he give them the chance to disobey if the technology exists in-universe to reduce or eliminate that possibility with clones? If anybody would inevitably hate and shoot the jedi for him as you seem to be implying, why a clone army at all?
Not that it would be trivial to build a regular army to do it for him. Building a militarized state in any form would be a massive undertaking, and success in that venture would probably mean he could take over the galaxy. The clones I think make sense simply by virtue of secret buildup, or they were kept in storage like Solauren suggested. He needs an army on the spot to respond to a sudden crisis, else the Jedi might come up with another solution that he doesn't have direct control over. To kill the Jedi, he needs a centralized, militarized, police state, and a slow Separatist Crisis and a slow build up might eliminate all three.

I am arguing that the chips should not exist because they don't need to. Obviously, in universe, if mind control technology exists then the embodiment of evil and ambition is going to use it. No fucking shit.
Let me clarify what I said about ROTS. The clones need to go from obeying the Jedi to killing the Jedi in a moment, they do NOT need to go from loving the Jedi to killing them. You can set up the clones to dislike the Jedi but grudgingly get along, but once you spend five seasons making them love each other, then you've kind of shot yourself in the foot. It isn't insurmountable, but you need to have more than two brain cells to rub together.

mean, guys, come on. The Jedi have the power to alter minds. They are individually immensely powerful, and they follow the rules of a mysterious unelected body. OF COURSE they might need to be killed. Whether or not the clones like them or they like the clones, it has to be in the back of the mind of everyone who has ever MET a Jedi. They have SUCH incredible power to launch a coup; a small number can theoretically overpower the Chancellor's bodyguards, their high command and largest concentration is right next to the heart of the galactic government, they have their own communications infrastructure, and the masters might hold dictatorial power (no one knows, they don't talk about themselves). They are the scariest cunts around, no matter how benevolent they seem right now. If the order comes down that the Jedi have betrayed the Republic, the clones that like the Jedi aren't even going to be able to trust themselves! If I hesitate to pull the trigger, is that because I feel love towards Kenobi, or because the devious bastard is altering my mind and memories right now? And regardless, I have to act RIGHT NOW because if I don't, he might realize he's in danger and get me first.

I would argue that there is no possible reality in which the Jedi are a good thing, or superheroes, or wizards, or anything like it. That isn't being debated right now, and that kind of cynicism isn't really Star Wars in nature. But if we're talking realism, that's what's realistic. Those men are going to be afraid of a Jedi takeover the moment they meet one.
Then you have no business writing Star Wars if you think there is no possibility of Jedi being a good thing.

You are projecting your own feelings and point of view on to everyone in the Star Wars galaxy and claiming it's logical and the only way people could possibly see this. This is just flat out wrong. the Jedi are an institution. They are the guardians of the peace and justice in the Republic for a thousand years/Generation. If they were going to take over, they could have done it centuries or millenia ago. People have grown up with them in place, they're are not going to be as paranoid about them as you think they are and there's very little in canon to suggest anyone having those views.
Oh piss off. I said that wasn't being argued, because you're right, the Force being a bad thing doesn't belong in Star Wars. That was tangential to my main point, which is that a professional military built without the Jedi involved is going to immediately classify them as what they are: an enormous potential threat. The clones were raised in isolation, and don't have that background knowledge that the Jedi are infallible. They came into a galaxy to fight an enemy LED by a fallen Jedi, after all.
Darth Yan wrote: 2021-09-22 01:17am Palpatine's an egomaniac and sees the clones as his tools. He wouldn't tolerate ANY of them disobeying him (hell in Legends he has Vader go to kill the unit that DID disobey). And even 30% being around is still a threat because they could join together and try to take him out. So no. In that regard he's not going to want to take chances.
You're really grasping at straws. Yes, the traitors to the Empire would be hunted down like in Legends. No, treason would not be tolerated. Yes, 30% survival of the Jedi is too high, that's why I said "in the first week of bloodletting." Most of the Jedi are killed off in one fell swoop, and the rest are too scattered and decentralized to mount an effective resistance while the Empire, perhaps still called the Republic, hunts them to extinction. Obviously all the Jedi have to die, as do all the clones who might have helped in that process. Hunting them down might even be a good thing, authoritarian states usually need an existential enemy for the propaganda to whip people into action.
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Re: How should the Clone Wars have been Done?

Post by MKSheppard »

KraytKing wrote: 2021-09-21 11:40pmSeventy or eighty percent dead in a week is ALREADY a wild success, for some reason you have locked onto the idea that if he doesn't kill every Jedi but Kenobi and Yoda on day one, then his plan has completely failed.
This.

Reading wookiepedia and stack exchange gave me this idea:

If we assume that 1% of all Jedi survived the initial round of Order 66 purges (a reasonable assumption, because the majority of Jedi at the time would be leading at the battlefronts during the Clone Wars), the numbers shake down as:

100 Surviving Jedi = 10,000 Jedi total
500 Surviving Jedi = 50,000 Jedi total
1,000 Surviving Jedi = 100,000 Jedi total

Based off that wild ass guess, I think the number is actually probably about 400 surviving in total -- that gives you room for a decades long campaign by Imperial Inquisitors to hunt down the remnants of the Jedi until only about 20 survive by A New Hope (Ahsoka Tano, Yoda, Obi Wan, and some border line force sensitives)

Plus 400 surviving jedi gives you a total count of 40,000 Jedi at their peak -- the Jedi Temple was a pretty big city block sized building on a planet that has 6,000 foot high (1.82km) skyscrapers (remember people are walking around Coruscant unaided -- you can't do that above 6,000 feet easily) that go about 1.5~ km deep into the ground (deepest mine in south Africa in OTL is about 3 to 4 km deep.

So, Yeah.
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Re: How should the Clone Wars have been Done?

Post by Gandalf »

That first link says functionally nothing, except that occasionally the USA looks like the Empire. The second one says that the Emperor was Nixon in that he was a charismatic politician who was actually a dick. In later interviews he's said similar, but substituting other similar leaders. That doesn't make the USA the Empire.

Either use these sources better or get better ones.
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Re: How should the Clone Wars have been Done?

Post by Galvatron »

Should've been no less than two wars with the clones as the bad guys in at least one of them.

Also, Vader and Anakin should have been completely separate people.
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Re: How should the Clone Wars have been Done?

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Gandalf wrote: 2021-09-22 09:21pm
That first link says functionally nothing, except that occasionally the USA looks like the Empire. The second one says that the Emperor was Nixon in that he was a charismatic politician who was actually a dick. In later interviews he's said similar, but substituting other similar leaders. That doesn't make the USA the Empire.

Either use these sources better or get better ones.
Lucas himself made the comparison, and modeled the rebels after the Viet Cong.

https://nextshark.com/star-wars-vietnamese-resistance/
https://warisboring.com/earths-wars-inspired-star-wars/
Galvatron wrote: 2021-09-22 09:53pm Should've been no less than two wars with the clones as the bad guys in at least one of them.

Also, Vader and Anakin should have been completely separate people.
Yes yes you've said this before. Personally I think Anakin and Vader being the same adds more drama and depth (it also makes Obi Wan and Yoda flawed since while well meaning they DID lie to Luke
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Re: How should the Clone Wars have been Done?

Post by Juubi Karakuchi »

There was a thread like this some years ago, when someone made a suggestion for a clone revolt. It would involve the Kaminoan clones siding with their Jedi generals, and fighting against the Imperial Spaarti clones created to replace them. I thought it was a good idea, if only because it would tie in the Thrawn trilogy, and at the same time create multiple 'clone wars' as opposed to a single 'clone war.'

It doesn't have to be done in quite that way. My personal preference was for the Imperial Army (which was recanonized in Solo) to appear as conventional army units raised for the GAR. They would do just as well in a scenario like that; if not better.

The only problem with a large-scale clone revolt, as worthwhile as that would be, is the biochips; which in theory joss any such possibility. That said, it does raise the question of who the clones are being forced to obey; that is, what happens if people they are supposed to obey start disagreeing?

If they simply obey the next person up the chain, then a conspiracy among the clone officers, maybe even among higher-ranking Imperial officers, could start a clone revolt. But if the clones specifically have to obey Palpatine, then all he has to do is order them to stand down. The only way around this would be to have the biochips secretly removed; which I suppose is possible.
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Re: How should the Clone Wars have been Done?

Post by Gandalf »

Darth Yan wrote: 2021-09-23 12:07amLucas himself made the comparison, and modeled the rebels after the Viet Cong.

https://nextshark.com/star-wars-vietnamese-resistance/
https://warisboring.com/earths-wars-inspired-star-wars/
Lucas has compared the Emperor to lots of people. In the commentary for ROTS he says that it's the story of Caesar, Napoleon, and Hitler. In other interviews he likens the Rebellion to the American colonists who fought the British Empire.

Effectively, it's a generic good guy underdog versus all conquering juggernaut story, which can be mapped onto a bunch of different struggles. In the time of post-Vietnam cultural malaise and uncertainty, he based the villains on the perhaps the most unambiguous groups in recent history. If the Empire was based on the US, Tarkin would have mentioned how they destroyed Alderaan for freedom or something.
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Re: How should the Clone Wars have been Done?

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Nixon himself interpreted it as being against Nam and was NOT amused. In an earlier draft Lucas describes a character as a "green beret who realizes the truth". Just because Tarkin isn't saying "for freedom" doesn't mean Lucas wasn't drawing on Vietnam.
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Re: How should the Clone Wars have been Done?

Post by Gandalf »

You're making less sense somehow. Why does it matter what Nixon thought, given his mild paranoia?
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Re: How should the Clone Wars have been Done?

Post by KraytKing »

I definitely do remember that time when Nixon had his Sturmabteilung hunt down all the members of a particular religious sect, though. While leading America as the indomitable dictator with an enormous cult of personality for both him and his lieutenants. Am I hallucinating? We all do remember that period of American history right?
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Re: How should the Clone Wars have been Done?

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Gandalf wrote: 2021-09-23 07:16pm You're making less sense somehow. Why does it matter what Nixon thought, given his mild paranoia?
Again one of the characters in the original drafts (Prince Valorum) is described as a "green beret who realizes the truth". Vietnam was DEFINTELY an influence.
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Re: How should the Clone Wars have been Done?

Post by Gandalf »

Lots of things were influences, because that's the nature of the work, as I've discussed above. Lucas drew from a lot, because that's a big thing in his generation of filmmakers.

This has nothing to do with your claim that the US is apparently the Empire, while the Nazis apparently aren't.
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Re: How should the Clone Wars have been Done?

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Gandalf wrote: 2021-09-23 07:16pm You're making less sense somehow. Why does it matter what Nixon thought, given his mild paranoia?
"What does Nixon personally thinking that Star Wars was a veiled criticism of his policies and a war he was associated with have to do with the idea that the villain of Star Wars was based on or inspired by Nixon?"

Trolling much?
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Re: How should the Clone Wars have been Done?

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Ralin wrote: 2021-09-26 04:03am "What does Nixon personally thinking that Star Wars was a veiled criticism of his policies and a war he was associated with have to do with the idea that the villain of Star Wars was based on or inspired by Nixon?"
The inspiration happened before the film, and to my knowledge Nixon wasn't an active part of production, so pretty much that.

From inception to premiere, Star Wars went through a lot of revisions, because that's cinema. Lots of ideas came and went, because GL is into revising things. The paranoid, reclusive, Nixon shaped Emperor to which the first novelization alludes is not the Space Wizard generic evil dictator we get in the finished films. I find that a shame, because it's better than what we got in RoTJ. How it ties to Yan's that the Empire is the US in substance, but only Nazi Germany in aesthetic remains to be seen.
Trolling much?
Nope.
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Re: How should the Clone Wars have been Done?

Post by Darth Yan »

Gandalf wrote: 2021-09-27 09:07am
Ralin wrote: 2021-09-26 04:03am "What does Nixon personally thinking that Star Wars was a veiled criticism of his policies and a war he was associated with have to do with the idea that the villain of Star Wars was based on or inspired by Nixon?"
The inspiration happened before the film, and to my knowledge Nixon wasn't an active part of production, so pretty much that.

From inception to premiere, Star Wars went through a lot of revisions, because that's cinema. Lots of ideas came and went, because GL is into revising things. The paranoid, reclusive, Nixon shaped Emperor to which the first novelization alludes is not the Space Wizard generic evil dictator we get in the finished films. I find that a shame, because it's better than what we got in RoTJ. How it ties to Yan's that the Empire is the US in substance, but only Nazi Germany in aesthetic remains to be seen.
Trolling much?
Nope.
Endor was definitely based on Nam. And in the notes he directly makes a crack at Vietnam.

Honestly Palpatine as a space wizard makes more sense. Vader's ambition and power would mean that he would make a play unless Palpatine had countermeasures....and if those were force users THEY might betray him. Palpatine being stronger than Vader helps explain it and got us one of cinema's greatest baddies.
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Re: How should the Clone Wars have been Done?

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Darth Yan wrote: 2021-09-29 04:16am Endor was definitely based on Nam. And in the notes he directly makes a crack at Vietnam.
Indeed. I mentioned it above.
Honestly Palpatine as a space wizard makes more sense. Vader's ambition and power would mean that he would make a play unless Palpatine had countermeasures....and if those were force users THEY might betray him. Palpatine being stronger than Vader helps explain it and got us one of cinema's greatest baddies.
Palpatine as a space wizard really takes away from his Nixon state though, which is a shame. Lucas's early quotes mention that he's not a Jedi, just a really good politician. Instead of being paranoid and manipulative, playing his underlings against each other, we just see lightning for some reason.

But as you mentioned, the Emperor would have countermeasures even if he wasn't a space wizard. If Vader took a shot at the big chair, he wouldn't necessarily have the support of the state infrastructure even if he offed the Emperor. Vader would be hunted by the military, walking around in an iron lung with a target on his back. He's a broken and pathetic individual, who can only live as a servant to a manipulative monster he helped to put on that throne in the first place.

I haven't done a whole "How I'd do the Clone Wars" thing yet, but it would be about the Emperor rising to the top of a largely ungovernable galaxy, enforcing a cruel order like in The Godfather II. As the Republic falters in the face of successive crises, the Emperor is centralising things, diving the Senate, and even the Jedi. Anakin would be the most prominent Jedi "loyalist," and the only one that survives the fighting, because the Emperor arranges for all except his groomed star pupil to die.

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"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
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Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

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Re: How should the Clone Wars have been Done?

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Gandalf wrote: 2021-09-29 08:54am
Darth Yan wrote: 2021-09-29 04:16am Endor was definitely based on Nam. And in the notes he directly makes a crack at Vietnam.
Indeed. I mentioned it above.
Honestly Palpatine as a space wizard makes more sense. Vader's ambition and power would mean that he would make a play unless Palpatine had countermeasures....and if those were force users THEY might betray him. Palpatine being stronger than Vader helps explain it and got us one of cinema's greatest baddies.
Palpatine as a space wizard really takes away from his Nixon state though, which is a shame. Lucas's early quotes mention that he's not a Jedi, just a really good politician. Instead of being paranoid and manipulative, playing his underlings against each other, we just see lightning for some reason.

But as you mentioned, the Emperor would have countermeasures even if he wasn't a space wizard. If Vader took a shot at the big chair, he wouldn't necessarily have the support of the state infrastructure even if he offed the Emperor. Vader would be hunted by the military, walking around in an iron lung with a target on his back. He's a broken and pathetic individual, who can only live as a servant to a manipulative monster he helped to put on that throne in the first place.

I haven't done a whole "How I'd do the Clone Wars" thing yet, but it would be about the Emperor rising to the top of a largely ungovernable galaxy, enforcing a cruel order like in The Godfather II. As the Republic falters in the face of successive crises, the Emperor is centralising things, diving the Senate, and even the Jedi. Anakin would be the most prominent Jedi "loyalist," and the only one that survives the fighting, because the Emperor arranges for all except his groomed star pupil to die.

"I know it was you Padme. You broke my heart"
Except that regardless of those fears Anakin WOULD make a play for power simply because the dark side encourages ambition and arrogance regardless. He'd also probably think he could force the infrastructure in line (or just be desperate enough to try regardless). The only logical reason he wouldn't try is if Palpatine was more powerful in the force than he.
Also Palpatine describes being aware of a disturbance in the force. If other force users detected it for him why haven't THEY betrayed Palpatine yet? That's pretty much what Darksiders do.

Occam's razor means that the simplest solution is Palpatine has the raw power to slap down any rivals.

And having Palpatine JUST be a politician is lame. He can be both a manipulative politician AND a space wizard. Who said they're exclusive? Flawed as the prequels are Palpatine showed off his manipulative abilities there.
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Re: How should the Clone Wars have been Done?

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Darth Yan wrote: 2021-09-29 12:55pm Except that regardless of those fears Anakin WOULD make a play for power simply because the dark side encourages ambition and arrogance regardless. He'd also probably think he could force the infrastructure in line (or just be desperate enough to try regardless). The only logical reason he wouldn't try is if Palpatine was more powerful in the force than he.
Also Palpatine describes being aware of a disturbance in the force. If other force users detected it for him why haven't THEY betrayed Palpatine yet? That's pretty much what Darksiders do.
You can be ambitious and actually accomplish more from certain "power adjacent" positions. Look up people who functioned as high level functionaries in dictatorships as an example. Given what we know of Anakin's characterisation, running about the galaxy with his own military seems more his flavour than running an autocratic state.
Occam's razor means that the simplest solution is Palpatine has the raw power to slap down any rivals.
This requires elaboration.
And having Palpatine JUST be a politician is lame. He can be both a manipulative politician AND a space wizard. Who said they're exclusive? Flawed as the prequels are Palpatine showed off his manipulative abilities there.
Why is it lame? Is it just your wacky preference here?

Also, have you got any proof that the US is the Empire, while somehow excluding Nazi Germany? That's what started this wacky tangent and I'm still curious.
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Re: How should the Clone Wars have been Done?

Post by Solauren »

Evil Politico controlling a Space Wizard is easy....

Space Wizard was badly hurt, and needed surgery.
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Re: How should the Clone Wars have been Done?

Post by Darth Yan »

Gandalf wrote: 2021-10-03 11:39am
Darth Yan wrote: 2021-09-29 12:55pm Except that regardless of those fears Anakin WOULD make a play for power simply because the dark side encourages ambition and arrogance regardless. He'd also probably think he could force the infrastructure in line (or just be desperate enough to try regardless). The only logical reason he wouldn't try is if Palpatine was more powerful in the force than he.
Also Palpatine describes being aware of a disturbance in the force. If other force users detected it for him why haven't THEY betrayed Palpatine yet? That's pretty much what Darksiders do.
You can be ambitious and actually accomplish more from certain "power adjacent" positions. Look up people who functioned as high level functionaries in dictatorships as an example. Given what we know of Anakin's characterisation, running about the galaxy with his own military seems more his flavour than running an autocratic state.
Occam's razor means that the simplest solution is Palpatine has the raw power to slap down any rivals.
This requires elaboration.
And having Palpatine JUST be a politician is lame. He can be both a manipulative politician AND a space wizard. Who said they're exclusive? Flawed as the prequels are Palpatine showed off his manipulative abilities there.
Why is it lame? Is it just your wacky preference here?

Also, have you got any proof that the US is the Empire, while somehow excluding Nazi Germany? That's what started this wacky tangent and I'm still curious.
1.) Palpatine describes being aware of a disturbance in the force. If he's not force sensitive how does he know this? If it's other dark siders on his payroll why haven't THEY overthrown him? That kinda thing. And even if you can accomplish more people LIKE the prestige of power even if they don't know what to do with it. So it makes sense for Vader to try and run the state anyway.

2.) Because you need someone for Vader to turn away from if you want a redemption to be credible. If Palpatine is just a politician a lot of people won't accept it. They'll wonder why Vader didn't waste him years before. And you never explained WHY he couldn't be both. If anything it makes him more impressive.

3.) I cited the interviews from Lucas and some of his script notes. He used the Nazi Aesthetic but the US WAS an influence.
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