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So I got Disney+ and finally saw TRoS and one of the things it kept and expanded from TLJ that I find bewildering is that force ghosts now have substantial abillities to affect the real world.

Yoda can summon lightning, Luke can catch and hold a lightsaber and TK an X-Wing out of the sea.

It seems to be they should be able to do a lot more to directly handle Ren or Palpatine or anything else they want to alter.

So what's stopping them? Just personal philosophy. Can they only manifest at certian locations or to certain people?

Snide remark - In the Disney Trilogy, Force Ghosts gained the power of bad writing.

Seriousness - We saw Luke and Yoda do this on exactly one planet, on the sight of the first Jedi temple. It's probably related to that.

Otherwise, Disney could had the Force ghosts appear to physically help Rey against the Emperor, instead of just speaking words of encouragement.

Which, would have been awesome.
Imagine the audience reaction if Luke, Anakin, and Obi-wan had appeared while Rey and Ben were down, took up lightsabers (Rey would have had to be carrying a third saber, say Luke's green one) .....

Luke: "Rey, Ben, it's okay."
Anakin: "You kids, stay back for a bit"
Kenobi: "Sith lords are our speciality."

Solauren wrote: ↑2021-03-22 10:08am Which, would have been awesome.
Imagine the audience reaction if Luke, Anakin, and Obi-wan had appeared while Rey and Ben were down, took up lightsabers (Rey would have had to be carrying a third saber, say Luke's green one) .....

Luke: "Rey, Ben, it's okay."
Anakin: "You kids, stay back for a bit"
Kenobi: "Sith lords are our speciality."

Gods I would have LOVED THAT!!

I do believe Force Ghosts are only strong when they're appearing in certain places, like a Ancient Temple, or on the planet where they died.

I guess there's precedent even in the OT for certain places being stronger in the force. Principally the vision cave on Dagobah.

Crazedwraith wrote: ↑2021-03-22 03:37pm I guess there's precedent even in the OT for certain places being stronger in the force. Principally the vision cave on Dagobah.

There was an EU explaining Yoda knew about Dagobah and the cave because he'd tracked a Dark Force User to that planet, and the cave was where Yoda had killed him. So Yoda knew he could hide from Palpatine using the Cave's Darkness to mask himself.

But that was an Old Old EU.

Well in the original movie Obi-Wan does tell Vader: "If you strike me down I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine." However in ESB he tells Luke: "If you choose to face Vader you will do it alone, I can not interfere."

Ironically the sequels correctly show force ghosts exhibiting powerful feats but not involving themselves in actual conflict. That is one of the few things that the sequels actually got mostly right.

If we remember George Lucas personally worked on Clone Wars, and that the Mortis arc is canon, we can make some silly speculation. Perhaps a force ghost "interfering" would be rather quickly smacked down by "the brother".

Lord Insanity wrote: ↑2021-03-23 10:56pm Well in the original movie Obi-Wan does tell Vader: "If you strike me down I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine." However in ESB he tells Luke: "If you choose to face Vader you will do it alone, I can not interfere."

Ironically the sequels correctly show force ghosts exhibiting powerful feats but not involving themselves in actual conflict. That is one of the few things that the sequels actually got mostly right.

If we remember George Lucas personally worked on Clone Wars, and that the Mortis arc is canon, we can make some silly speculation. Perhaps a force ghost "interfering" would be rather quickly smacked down by "the brother".

It's also possible that "can maintain his personality and interact with the living is the living even if only in a highly limited manner" is the "more powerful then you can possibly imagine" part. We got to remember that a) Anakin could in someways be highly limited in his understanding of things b)No matter how well Obi-Wan knew Anakin, Obi-Wan is still a human being as thus subject to his biases so it's possible that Obi-Wan was under estimating Vader's imagination there c)It's also possible that Obi-Wan was taunting Vader there in an effort to keep Vader's attention on himself and not Luke and co.

When Vader killed Obi-wan, he did become more powerful then Vader could imagine.

Because he became a Martyr, Symbol, and ideal for Luke (and to a lesser degree, the Rebellion). He was able to influence and guide Luke, without worrying about Vader sensing him (Kenobi).

Becoming a force ghost had nothing to do with it.

Lord Revan wrote: ↑2021-03-24 02:03am

Lord Insanity wrote: ↑2021-03-23 10:56pm Well in the original movie Obi-Wan does tell Vader: "If you strike me down I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine." However in ESB he tells Luke: "If you choose to face Vader you will do it alone, I can not interfere."

Ironically the sequels correctly show force ghosts exhibiting powerful feats but not involving themselves in actual conflict. That is one of the few things that the sequels actually got mostly right.

If we remember George Lucas personally worked on Clone Wars, and that the Mortis arc is canon, we can make some silly speculation. Perhaps a force ghost "interfering" would be rather quickly smacked down by "the brother".

It's also possible that "can maintain his personality and interact with the living is the living even if only in a highly limited manner" is the "more powerful then you can possibly imagine" part. We got to remember that a) Anakin could in someways be highly limited in his understanding of things b)No matter how well Obi-Wan knew Anakin, Obi-Wan is still a human being as thus subject to his biases so it's possible that Obi-Wan was under estimating Vader's imagination there c)It's also possible that Obi-Wan was taunting Vader there in an effort to keep Vader's attention on himself and not Luke and co.

Solauren wrote: ↑2021-03-24 08:20am When Vader killed Obi-wan, he did become more powerful then Vader could imagine.

Because he became a Martyr, Symbol, and ideal for Luke (and to a lesser degree, the Rebellion). He was able to influence and guide Luke, without worrying about Vader sensing him (Kenobi).

Becoming a force ghost had nothing to do with it.

In the absence of the sequel trilogy those two interpretations are obviously far superior. I would happily ignore the sequel trilogy as a bad green milk drunken dream sequence. However if we take the sequels as canon then the force ghost powers at least have the benefit of merely requiring a different interpretation of scenes in the originals. There are far more obvious blatant contradictions to twist logic into a pretzel over. The force ghost powers are simple by comparison.

The only thing that we know Kenobi knew about Force ghosts was they could talk to the living (as Qui Jon had been talking to Yoda prior to/during Revenge of the Sith).

If he'd known they could do more, or if they could do more away from the First Jedi Temple, then the entire Jedi Order prior to Anakin's fall is as guilty of the Empire's crimes as the Empire is.

Solauren wrote: ↑2021-03-25 09:29am The only thing that we know Kenobi knew about Force ghosts was they could talk to the living (as Qui Jon had been talking to Yoda prior to/during Revenge of the Sith).

If he'd known they could do more, or if they could do more away from the First Jedi Temple, then the entire Jedi Order prior to Anakin's fall is as guilty of the Empire's crimes as the Empire is.

From what I recall, Qui Jon was studying the "Living Force", which was a forgotten/discarded philosophy, and the reason he was not a Council Member. When he became a Force Ghost, he started showing Yoda and Kenobi how he did it, after they went into exile.

LadyTevar wrote: ↑2021-03-25 06:09pm

Solauren wrote: ↑2021-03-25 09:29am The only thing that we know Kenobi knew about Force ghosts was they could talk to the living (as Qui Jon had been talking to Yoda prior to/during Revenge of the Sith).

If he'd known they could do more, or if they could do more away from the First Jedi Temple, then the entire Jedi Order prior to Anakin's fall is as guilty of the Empire's crimes as the Empire is.

From what I recall, Qui Jon was studying the "Living Force", which was a forgotten/discarded philosophy, and the reason he was not a Council Member. When he became a Force Ghost, he started showing Yoda and Kenobi how he did it, after they went into exile.

IIRC it wasn't so much studying the "living Force" aspect of the Force that prevented Qui-Gon Jinn from being in the High Council but rather the fact that Qui-Gon clashed with the Council on matters of policy. The High Council during the final days of the Old Republic was very strict and inflexible (it was one of the major flaws of the Jedi Order). That said I doubt Qui-Gon learned that much more then what was displayed by him, Yoda or Obi-Wan.

To my knowledge no Jedi has displayed abilities beyond those seen in the OT outside few special "Force nexus" locations like the first temple.

There is also no reason to assume that just because a Jedi ghost can perform a feat in the presence of another living Jedi that they could do the same in the presence of a dark side user.

Again remember Clone Wars is canon. The Mortis arc strongly suggests that the "will of the force" is two different and opposite entities held in balance by a third entity. Just because the "sister" (light-side) lets a force ghost teach a student, doesn't mean the "brother" (dark-side) is going to let them fight enemies.

That's actually an interesting consideration.

Could Yoda, and then Luke, only do what they did, because they were on a Force Nexus planet, with a powerful force user nearby?

Or, are we just seeing how the living Force users percieved it, but in reality, the ghost influenced them to do it?

In other words, Yoda caused Luke to summon that bolt of lightning, and Luke caused Rey to actually lift the X-wing?

Solauren wrote: ↑2021-03-26 05:12pm That's actually an interesting consideration.

Could Yoda, and then Luke, only do what they did, because they were on a Force Nexus planet, with a powerful force user nearby?

Or, are we just seeing how the living Force users perceived it, but in reality, the ghost influenced them to do it?

In other words, Yoda caused Luke to summon that bolt of lightning, and Luke caused Rey to actually lift the X-wing?

That explanation works really well. Basically the ghost was merely channeling the power of the living force user because said force user was open to the ghost's guidance. Obviously that wouldn't work against an opponent that is actively against them. That explains all the obvious canon stuff so far regarding force ghosts quite a bit neater than I would have expected.

I kind of wish that was intentional on the part of the the sequel writers or maybe just that they actually bothered putting a few minutes of thought into it.

It also lines up with certain elements of pre-Disney canon.

Luke making the Death Star kill shot --> Kenobi was guiding him
Kyle Katarn learning the Force on his own --> The spirit of Jedi Master Rahn guiding him
Jacen as a child, using a Lightsaber to defend Luke's body --> because Luke's disembodied spirit was guiding him (this is directly stated in the novel it occurs in)

With new canon, we could also toss in -
Rey able to hold her own and use the force against an injured Kylo Ren --> Kenobi might have been guiding her (as his voice was heard when she found the saber)
Rey able to defeat Darth Sidious --> Because a huge chunk of the Jedi Order was guiding her


This explaination actually makes Rey less of a 'Mary Sue' and more like "The Jedi Order's last one-in-a-million-shot gamble"