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Given how the Empire's military philosophy for Starfighters was 'cheap and mass produced', it makes sense Stormtrooper armor would be as well.

Patroklos wrote: ↑2021-03-17 06:28pm Is it ever actually called armor in a movie? Are we sure it is not primarily an environmental encounter suit? Or just a scary uniform with a headdress to frighten the locals?

I don't actually believe any of that, but since the writers have no desire to have the obvious behave as such, why not?

Sure, Rex bitched in Rebels that the Stormtrooper armor was horrible and he would take phase II armor any day.

Solauren wrote: ↑2021-03-18 08:15am Given how the Empire's military philosophy for Starfighters was 'cheap and mass produced', it makes sense Stormtrooper armor would be as well.

Evidence for this?

Their K/D ratio on film was quite positive in the OT.

GuppyShark wrote: ↑2021-03-19 03:01am
Evidence for this?

Their K/D ratio on film was quite positive in the OT.

The TIE is the pointy end of a greater weapons system that includes ship/ground based sensors, jammers, and most importantly, C&C.

Black Squadron was backed up by a Death Star's worth of jammers, sensors, and GCI controllers. Of course they massacred their enemies. TIEs do much better when supported by Star Destroyers than when operating independently, because they are short-ranged fighters optimized for defense of ships and bases.

GuppyShark wrote: ↑2021-03-19 03:01am

Solauren wrote: ↑2021-03-18 08:15am Given how the Empire's military philosophy for Starfighters was 'cheap and mass produced', it makes sense Stormtrooper armor would be as well.

Evidence for this?

Their K/D ratio on film was quite positive in the OT.

There have been numerous discussion threads on that topic here on this board, with evidence presented.

GuppyShark wrote: ↑2021-03-17 09:51pm Early in the Mandalorian the stormtroopers definately looked worse for wear. Gideon's forces appeared to be shiny clean, though.

Though Gideon's quasi-private army of Stormtroopers are still mostly about keeping up appearances and he's still working with relatively limited resources, when the Empire's central chain of command and logistics supply must've entirely unravelled galaxy wide after Endor/Jakku/Op Cinder. So trooper equipment showed signs of wear and tear, with armour not replaced in months/couple years becoming brittle, less quatermasters around to keep blasters properly tuned, etc (and those early troopers still belonged to Gideon).

His Stormtroopers seemed much more threatening and professional in S1, though virtually all of them got badly wounded or killed in that town siege, Imperial veterans are now much harder to replace, and so the quality of Gideon's troopers tanked dramatically in S2 (with rando thugs, colonist, and outcasts "drafted" into his mini-army at very short notice and only a tiny fraction as well trained next to Clone/FO troopers).

Yeah it wouldn't be surprising at all if Warlords like Moff Gideon were scraping the bottom of the barrel to get enough recruits for their personal armies, with high quality troops being in short supply (having either been killed off or joined the Republic) spread over many Warlords who probably don't want to share resources even if they technically still serve a single leader.

The Bad Batch has brought up an interesting possibility.

After the inhibitor chips are activated, the clones become not only more obedient, but much more conformist. All their previous signs of individuality, such as nicknames, haircuts, and customised armour, all disappear. They also display a deep and apparently sincere loyalty to the Empire, and a strong willingness to obey orders without question. Anyone who doesn't fit in is regarded with contempt.
Spoiler
It would seem that the inhibitor chips work by altering brain function; exaggerating tendencies like conformism, group loyalty, and obedience to authority. This would provide the psychological basis for their loyalty and obedience, with their childhood conditioning providing the necessary details and filling in any gaps. The price may be a tendency to fixate on orders, procedure, and what they happen to be doing at a given moment; causing them to miss the big picture.

The possibility is that the same thing ends up happening to the stormtroopers; either through brain alteration of some kind, or by using implantable inhibitor chips created by the Kaminoans.

Juubi Karakuchi wrote: ↑2021-06-12 08:28am The Bad Batch has brought up an interesting possibility.

After the inhibitor chips are activated, the clones become not only more obedient, but much more conformist. All their previous signs of individuality, such as nicknames, haircuts, and customised armour, all disappear. They also display a deep and apparently sincere loyalty to the Empire, and a strong willingness to obey orders without question. Anyone who doesn't fit in is regarded with contempt.
Spoiler

On top of that, their competence seemingly takes a knock; with a clone almost recognising Cut Lawquane, only to get called away to a firefight, and then seemingly forget all about it.

It would seem that the inhibitor chips work by altering brain function; exaggerating tendencies like conformism, group loyalty, and obedience to authority. This would provide the psychological basis for their loyalty and obedience, with their childhood conditioning providing the necessary details and filling in any gaps. The price may be a tendency to fixate on orders, procedure, and what they happen to be doing at a given moment; causing them to miss the big picture.

The possibility is that the same thing ends up happening to the stormtroopers; either through brain alteration of some kind, or by using implantable inhibitor chips created by the Kaminoans.

A lot of indoctrination is also possible if nonconformity resulted with a blaster bolt in the chest, Stormtroopers might be more willing to conform. It also explains why Stormtroopers have trouble with things that depends on independent thinking (we got remember that the clones had to work with the Jedi and enact order 66 without question for Palpatine's plan to work).

LadyTevar wrote: ↑2021-07-14 12:49pm 24 EMMY NOMINATIONS, INCLUDING "BEST DRAMA"!!
(the rest are technical prizes, of course)

Definitely well earned! Looking forward to see if Mando wins.

TrekkieJeff2000 wrote: ↑2021-07-14 02:01pm Definitely well earned! Looking forward to see if Mando wins.

I doubt it. One of the other shows up for "Best Drama" is The Crown
Beloved SciFi doesn't have a chance against Charles and Diana's troubled marriage.

Sorry, I'm not impressed with non-techincal emmy (or any award) nominations this year.

There just wasn't much competition.

Bad Batch's latest episode - 'War Mantle' - may have decisively settled the stormtrooper incompetence issue.
Spoiler

Season 3 is out, and I just binged the 3 current episodes.

The writing seems to have improved a bit. Still going to the same few people to get help, but Navarro's looking very prosperous now. Mando's getting a lot of use out of that speed boost on his ship.
Mandalore itself is sad. As he said, looks like it was centuries of destruction, not 20yrs. It's not going to be quite livable for a while, unless they build underground. Fresh water and shelter in the caves, once you remove the vermin.

The 3rd Ep -- the Convert -- wow. That was intense.

I'm now wondering what's going on inside Bo Katan's head. All it took for her to be accepted by the Watch? Dunk herself in the Living Water, and not remove her helmet after. And they're giving her a welcome she's probably not had in decades from any other Mandalorian. Plus, she and not Din saw the living Mythasaur in the waters. I'm wondering if this is leading to her redemption arc. "Once and Future Mandalore"

LadyTevar wrote: ↑2023-03-16 11:44pm
Mandalore itself is sad. As he said, looks like it was centuries of destruction, not 20yrs. It's not going to be quite livable for a while, unless they build underground. Fresh water and shelter in the caves, once you remove the vermin.

It could be a nice spot for a covert for the Watch to live in. If they can deal with problems like that eye droid.

The 3rd Ep -- the Convert -- wow. That was intense.

I'm now wondering what's going on inside Bo Katan's head. All it took for her to be accepted by the Watch? Dunk herself in the Living Water, and not remove her helmet after. And they're giving her a welcome she's probably not had in decades from any other Mandalorian. Plus, she and not Din saw the living Mythasaur in the waters. I'm wondering if this is leading to her redemption arc. "Once and Future Mandalore"

We also saw that she could use the darksaber much better than Din. Her story could get very interesting.

I'm wondering what's going on with the New Republic amnesty program. They go by their letter designations, not their names. They get housing on the surface, but are limited in where they can travel. The whole setup looks suspicious even if I assume the entrapment isn't an intended part of it.

Also, the Rebellion was able to replace Luke's hand. Boba Fett is working with people who have more serious cybernetic modifications. So there might not be anything that organ cloning has the potential to do that cybernetics aren't already doing, so no reason to think about relaxing the ban on cloning.

bilateralrope wrote: ↑2023-03-17 12:41am

LadyTevar wrote: ↑2023-03-16 11:44pm
Mandalore itself is sad. As he said, looks like it was centuries of destruction, not 20yrs. It's not going to be quite livable for a while, unless they build underground. Fresh water and shelter in the caves, once you remove the vermin.

It could be a nice spot for a covert for the Watch to live in. If they can deal with problems like that eye droid.

I also think the Watch would adore living on Mandalore with access to potential beskar deposits, the living waters, and, oh yeah, being on Mandalore.

bilateralrope wrote: ↑2023-03-17 12:41am The 3rd Ep -- the Convert -- wow. That was intense.

I'm now wondering what's going on inside Bo Katan's head. All it took for her to be accepted by the Watch? Dunk herself in the Living Water, and not remove her helmet after.

Well, she's newly Baptized and as long as she follows their customs they don't see a need to push her out. They even tolerated apostate Din visiting to speak with the Armorer. The Armorer did say something about "living as your ancestors did" so it's pretty clear they expect her to follow their customs while she's living with them, but that's probably not too arduous for her, especially since she's free to go whenever it suits her to do so.

bilateralrope wrote: ↑2023-03-17 12:41am I'm wondering what's going on with the New Republic amnesty program. They go by their letter designations, not their names.

Probably to keep them anonymous (unless they choose to use their real names) so they can leave past crimes behind them. Sort of like witness protection.

bilateralrope wrote: ↑2023-03-17 12:41am They get housing on the surface, but are limited in where they can travel. The whole setup looks suspicious even if I assume the entrapment isn't an intended part of it.

The entrapment is loyalty testing.

I think in the case of Pershing they did the wrong thing giving him an administrative desk job in a cubicle like that. The man has skills and wants to help. It would make a lot more sense putting him into some sort of medical-related job. Even if you don't want him to have patient contact working in a lab analyzing things or as a pathologist would make much more sense.

Post-WWII governments that snatched up, for example, Nazi rocket scientists didn't turn them into secretaries typing memos, they used them to build up their own missile systems and space programs. Even if the New Republic wants a moratorium on cloning and genetic technology Pershing's skills would have applications in various biological realms even if he would need to undergo some retraining. What they did with him was a waste of talent and education. That doesn't mean Imperial scientists shouldn't be watched carefully and shouldn't have restrictions, I just think he was set up to fail.

Broomstick wrote: ↑2023-03-17 08:58am

bilateralrope wrote: ↑2023-03-17 12:41am I'm wondering what's going on with the New Republic amnesty program. They go by their letter designations, not their names.

Probably to keep them anonymous (unless they choose to use their real names) so they can leave past crimes behind them. Sort of like witness protection.

Who are their identities being hidden from ?
Because those sound like just the letter part of the serial numbers stormtroopers get. While also making it obvious to everyone outside the program that these are former imperials.

bilateralrope wrote: ↑2023-03-17 12:41am They get housing on the surface, but are limited in where they can travel. The whole setup looks suspicious even if I assume the entrapment isn't an intended part of it.

The entrapment is loyalty testing.

I think in the case of Pershing they did the wrong thing giving him an administrative desk job in a cubicle like that. The man has skills and wants to help. It would make a lot more sense putting him into some sort of medical-related job. Even if you don't want him to have patient contact working in a lab analyzing things or as a pathologist would make much more sense.

Post-WWII governments that snatched up, for example, Nazi rocket scientists didn't turn them into secretaries typing memos, they used them to build up their own missile systems and space programs. Even if the New Republic wants a moratorium on cloning and genetic technology Pershing's skills would have applications in various biological realms even if he would need to undergo some retraining. What they did with him was a waste of talent and education. That doesn't mean Imperial scientists shouldn't be watched carefully and shouldn't have restrictions, I just think he was set up to fail.

Agreed. Pershing's knowledge could have been useful in all sorts of areas. Instead, everything looks like he was setup to fail.

I think they're going with the notion that the New Republic is as bad - or at least not much better - than the Empire it replaced.

The bit with Pershing being strapped into the Mind Flayer says it all. The Mon Calamari officer cheerfully tells him that the device will make it all better, while that Twi-lek officer tells Kane how glad he is that she succeeded while Pershing failed. There's a terrifying self-righteousness to it all; like they know that they're the good guys and doing the right thing. They are ideologically blind to the point of naïveté; enough so that the twi-lek officer actually left Kane unattended with dangerous equipment.

It also ties into the Centrist and Populist political factions; with the Centrists wanting the New Republic to be more centralised and militarised; basically like the Empire without the overt bad stuff. The rot set in from the very beginning.

I think it's more then that.

The Empire is basically the next 'stage' of the Old Republic.

An old republic that was rotting, decaying, and corrupting before Palpatine rose to power.

(If you go by the Darth Plageious book, it started long before Palpatine was appointed to the Senate. The corruption was caused, or rather amplified, due to a morally bankrupt Chancellor).

Most of the people fighting to restore the Republic were, when you get down to it, fighting to restore the old status of the Senate being answerable to itself, not held down by the Emperor and the Imperial armed forces.

By that, it's not hard to imagine that alot of the Rebellions officers were people that had been told off for something they were doing. People that probably got jealous of the freedom the Imperials enjoyed. Now those same reppressed individuals are in charge, and can now get away with what they want (so long as they can justify it. Kinda like the Imperials...)

You also have to wonder how many were legitimate criminals, that joined the Rebellion to fight back against 'the man'. (i.e - Andor might be a hero, but he was a criminal before he joined the Rebellion. He was stealing military property prior to the start of his series, after all)

While there certainly were moral paragons in the Rebellion (Leia, Luke), I get the feeling those were few and far between.

Juubi Karakuchi wrote: ↑2023-03-17 11:58am I think they're going with the notion that the New Republic is as bad - or at least not much better - than the Empire it replaced.

Overall, I've had a feeling that the New Republic was not so much evil as incompetent. These are people who won a rebellion but don't know how to govern a peace. Especially not while dealing with the remnants of the Empire they overthrew.

Pershing had a point about them throwing away Imperial tech and material that really could be re-purposed for a new regime. It smacks of ideologically based thinking rather than practical use/recycling. Yes, some possessions of the Empire needed to be destroyed but a lot of stuff - the medical labs/set ups, the stored food, communications equipment, etc. - could have been given to those who needed it for peaceful purposes and to help people. What they were doing was simply wasteful.

Rather like turning a highly trained and skilled scientist into a file clerk was wasteful.

Broomstick wrote: ↑2023-03-18 05:33am Rather like turning a highly trained and skilled scientist into a file clerk was wasteful.

It is wasteful, but the societal trauma I guess just isn't going to let them go near cloning or anything tied to Palpatine's rule any time soon, so Pershing's most valuable skill would be familiarity with Imperial tech. The NR seems to have quite the denazification regime going on without outside assistance, so that makes sense that they just want to destroy what they can.

Gandalf wrote: ↑2023-03-18 01:16pm The NR seems to have quite the denazification regime going on without outside assistance, so that makes sense that they just want to destroy what they can.

I think this is the core of it. She was rather blunt when she said "It's pretty much the same -- less Cogwheels"

The NR was trying to remove every sign of the Empire, and didn't want to have anything to remind anyone of it. So.. prisoners have numbers not names. Everything gets destroyed, because it was 'tainted' by use... except those things that COULD be useful.
I do wonder about those 'medtechs' that were with the Mind-ripper. What kind of medical procedure has EVERYONE LEAVE, and no one monitoring? (Needs of plot, but still. Could have been a tech she was working with, but I don't think they have her working with anyone right now.)

I think the issue with the New Republic being just as corrupt as the old Republic comes down to the fact that the New Republic needs to fail leading into the sequel trilogy, so they have to set that up and allow it to make sense.

The problem has a sort of meta-irony to it. In the real world context, Disney wanted an easily marketed remake of the original trilogy with a new take on the Empire and Rebel Alliance dynamic despite the fact that it doesn't make sense in light of Return of the Jedi. Capitalism ultimately destroys art by consolidating its ownership under a monopoly with little artistic vision.

In universe, the trouble with the Rebel Alliance is that they had no cohesive political or economic ideology beyond overthrowing the Empire, which then meant that they wanted to restore the same fundamentally corrupt capitalist system that the Old Republic had. This then left a state of affairs in which fascism could rise again without much of a push as the same basic problem that led to its original rise was still in place.

A big part of the new lore that many people aren't aware of is the fact that the New Republic had already split several years prior to the sequel trilogy:

After the assassination of Tai-Lin Garr, Lady Carise and her Centrist counterparts began preparing a motion to secede from the New Republic in order to join and support the First Order. Acting as a political coalition of worlds advocating centralized authority, the Centrists formally withdrew from the New Republic and joined the First Order in 29 ABY, marking the official formation of the First Order as a regime and beginning the Cold War between the First Order and the New Republic.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/First_Order#Cold_War

I always thought this would have been a good way to explain why the capital of the New Republic was moved to Hosnian Prime from the more traditional seat of galactic power on Coruscant, but apparently they missed that opportunity.