New Clone Wars Season 7 Trailer.

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Adam Reynolds
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Re: New Clone Wars Season 7 Trailer.

Post by Adam Reynolds »

The problem with the brain chips is actually a deeper one with the whole prequel trilogy and its portrayal of the rise of Palpatine. The problem is that they portray the fascist leader as a brilliant chessmaster who tricks everyone and wipes out an extremely powerful paramilitary religious organization, before creating an extremely powerful military who build the largest weapon in galactic history. In reality, this is a convenient myth for those duped by such leaders, as real authoritarian leaders use conveniently powerless scapegoats and generally tell people exactly who they are as they offer no real solutions for the deeper societal problems they exploit as a means to gain power. People simply delude themselves into thinking they will be better than they say, and when they are inevitably proven wrong claim that they had no way of knowing what would happen and that they were tricked.
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Re: New Clone Wars Season 7 Trailer.

Post by chimericoncogene »

Adam Reynolds wrote: 2020-04-25 02:03am The problem with the brain chips is actually a deeper one with the whole prequel trilogy and its portrayal of the rise of Palpatine. The problem is that they portray the fascist leader as a brilliant chessmaster who tricks everyone and wipes out an extremely powerful paramilitary religious organization, before creating an extremely powerful military who build the largest weapon in galactic history. In reality, this is a convenient myth for those duped by such leaders, as real authoritarian leaders use conveniently powerless scapegoats and generally tell people exactly who they are as they offer no real solutions for the deeper societal problems they exploit as a means to gain power. People simply delude themselves into thinking they will be better than they say, and when they are inevitably proven wrong claim that they had no way of knowing what would happen and that they were tricked.
Well, the prequel trilogy leaves ample room for viewers to interpret events. While some sources talk of the Sith Grand Plan as some all-encompassing masterplan that caused everything, I was always a bigger fan of the idea that a lot of people were more than happy to build an Empire out of a Republic (KDY, Sienear - hey, even the CIS wanted a restructuring), and the Sith just exploited that so they could gain power.

Personally, I prefer to think that Palpatine was winging it most of the time, as all politicians must (except with Order 66 and the Clone Army, those were key elements for killing the Jedi), and that the Grand Plan was more of a "Grand Guideline/Grand Politics-Sandpit". Anyone with adequate resources could have seized control of the galaxy in that window of socioeconomic instability - the Sith Party of Two just tried their darndest to make sure it was them, and killed the Jedi off in the process.

Now where's the Galactic equivalent of Adam Tooze to start explaining the economics of the Clone Wars...
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Re: New Clone Wars Season 7 Trailer.

Post by Gandalf »

FaxModem1 wrote: 2020-04-24 03:41am Basic wartime conditioning, someone you served with, who you KNOW had your back in the worst of conditions, means that you would have their backs too, just out of simple tribal psychology of how you KNOW this person is with you, no matter what. Shooting them would be very hard without something compelling you to do so.

Think of it like this, in Captain America, there's a reason Bucky wasn't the one to pull the trigger on Steve, and instead saved him. According to your logic, Bucky should have instead been the one to pull the trigger after getting verification that his lifetime buddy was deemed an enemy, instead of his doubts and confusion that he faced, and eventual breaking of that conditioning once he was able to put the pieces together.

Same principle here. They're friends who have been through a lot together, and some politician telling them to kill each other isn't going to mean as much as what they've personally been through. Having it be something biological makes much more sense.
Or the people manufacturing the clones just gave them less of an issue with killing people for whom they had an affinity? The clones grew up over a decade or so, which is plenty of time for them to not only be bred to be obedient soldiers, but also have more drilled into them once they're alive. I wager it's less time than the US forces in My Lai had before they massacred the whole village, and they weren't genetically engineered slaves at all.

In the period between 2005 and when the brain chips became a thing, did you consider it a plot hole that the clones just started gunning down Jedi?
Adam Reynolds wrote: 2020-04-25 02:03am The problem with the brain chips is actually a deeper one with the whole prequel trilogy and its portrayal of the rise of Palpatine. The problem is that they portray the fascist leader as a brilliant chessmaster who tricks everyone and wipes out an extremely powerful paramilitary religious organization, before creating an extremely powerful military who build the largest weapon in galactic history. In reality, this is a convenient myth for those duped by such leaders, as real authoritarian leaders use conveniently powerless scapegoats and generally tell people exactly who they are as they offer no real solutions for the deeper societal problems they exploit as a means to gain power. People simply delude themselves into thinking they will be better than they say, and when they are inevitably proven wrong claim that they had no way of knowing what would happen and that they were tricked.
It's also a great way to eliminate responsibility for the horrible things that some people do. The horrors of the Nazi regime weren't possible without people following the orders of the Nazi party, and that can be said for a lot of humanity's darkest moments, and so on.
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Re: New Clone Wars Season 7 Trailer.

Post by FaxModem1 »

Gandalf wrote: 2020-04-25 01:43pm
FaxModem1 wrote: 2020-04-24 03:41am Basic wartime conditioning, someone you served with, who you KNOW had your back in the worst of conditions, means that you would have their backs too, just out of simple tribal psychology of how you KNOW this person is with you, no matter what. Shooting them would be very hard without something compelling you to do so.

Think of it like this, in Captain America, there's a reason Bucky wasn't the one to pull the trigger on Steve, and instead saved him. According to your logic, Bucky should have instead been the one to pull the trigger after getting verification that his lifetime buddy was deemed an enemy, instead of his doubts and confusion that he faced, and eventual breaking of that conditioning once he was able to put the pieces together.

Same principle here. They're friends who have been through a lot together, and some politician telling them to kill each other isn't going to mean as much as what they've personally been through. Having it be something biological makes much more sense.
Or the people manufacturing the clones just gave them less of an issue with killing people for whom they had an affinity? The clones grew up over a decade or so, which is plenty of time for them to not only be bred to be obedient soldiers, but also have more drilled into them once they're alive. I wager it's less time than the US forces in My Lai had before they massacred the whole village, and they weren't genetically engineered slaves at all.

In the period between 2005 and when the brain chips became a thing, did you consider it a plot hole that the clones just started gunning down Jedi?
And how many times did the US forces just frag their Commander or someone in their platoon? Especially if it was someone they respected and admired?

See, you have this disconnect about what someone does to an 'enemy', and what someone does to someone you consider in your unit and friend. This is why firing squads are supposed to have one blank in among them, and were comprised of people who weren't in that unit. Because such actions destroyed morale and would be refused otherwise.

If they were so okay with fragging people they were friendly with, they would have had multiple cases of friendly fire, which would kind of put a hindrance to their whole effectiveness as soldiers. This is why they had that whole professionalism thing that required them training for years before deploying.
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Re: New Clone Wars Season 7 Trailer.

Post by Lord Revan »

The thing is that we've seen how clones react when told to shoot at a friendly, the Umbaran arc showed us that with the firing squad scene and it wasn't "eh whatever".

Also you can't program the clones to have a genetic "hatred" towards Jedi DNA doesn't work that way and even if you could there would be unacceptbly high risk of it being triggered too soon. Something like this would have to be done during training and maintained by constant indoctrination, not really something you could do while keeping it a secret from the Jedi.

The Biochip on the other hand could be disguised as a monitoring chip or something like that and the Jedi probably wouldn't think nothing of it unless they had a good reason to suspect foul play.
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Re: New Clone Wars Season 7 Trailer.

Post by chimericoncogene »

Lord Revan wrote: 2020-04-25 05:17pm The thing is that we've seen how clones react when told to shoot at a friendly, the Umbaran arc showed us that with the firing squad scene and it wasn't "eh whatever".

Also you can't program the clones to have a genetic "hatred" towards Jedi DNA
Legends has it that the clones felt zero malice towards the Jedi, which is why the Jedi did not pick it up.

Orders from whom? Orders from a distrusted Jedi theater commander vs top-priority Executive Orders (with command chain bypass authorization) from the reasonably well-liked Supreme Chancellor of the Galactic Republic? While the matter is no longer canon, one can easily defend the original canon by speculating that the executive orders were more than verbal orders, and were likely backed up by various forms of authentication, biometric, and verification codes scrolling at the bottom of the holodisplay in text too small for the audience to see, or speculating on the brief verbal and nonverbal exchanges between the clones (muffled by helmets and inaudible to viewers) that must have been exchanged between troops while coordinating Order 66.
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Re: New Clone Wars Season 7 Trailer.

Post by FaxModem1 »

chimericoncogene wrote: 2020-04-26 04:13am
Lord Revan wrote: 2020-04-25 05:17pm The thing is that we've seen how clones react when told to shoot at a friendly, the Umbaran arc showed us that with the firing squad scene and it wasn't "eh whatever".

Also you can't program the clones to have a genetic "hatred" towards Jedi DNA
Legends has it that the clones felt zero malice towards the Jedi, which is why the Jedi did not pick it up.

Orders from whom? Orders from a distrusted Jedi theater commander vs top-priority Executive Orders (with command chain bypass authorization) from the reasonably well-liked Supreme Chancellor of the Galactic Republic? While the matter is no longer canon, one can easily defend the original canon by speculating that the executive orders were more than verbal orders, and were likely backed up by various forms of authentication, biometric, and verification codes scrolling at the bottom of the holodisplay in text too small for the audience to see, or speculating on the brief verbal and nonverbal exchanges between the clones (muffled by helmets and inaudible to viewers) that must have been exchanged between troops while coordinating Order 66.
Aside from Pong Krell, what Jedi theater commanders weren't trusted? Because it seems to be that when the clones had a problem, they went to the Jedi and the Jedi made sure they were taken care of, not acting like bureaucratic WWI trench officers that viewed them as expendable numbers to throw at threat grinder.
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Re: New Clone Wars Season 7 Trailer.

Post by chimericoncogene »

FaxModem1 wrote: 2020-04-26 07:19am
Aside from Pong Krell, what Jedi theater commanders weren't trusted? Because it seems to be that when the clones had a problem, they went to the Jedi and the Jedi made sure they were taken care of, not acting like bureaucratic WWI trench officers that viewed them as expendable numbers to throw at threat grinder.
Yes, it was Pong Krell. Other Jedi were probably much more trusted, and their orders would have been met with much less resistance. As may have triply-authenicated and verified orders from the Supreme Chancellor (Legends).

Clones following horrible orders is not as implausible as say, Coruscant only having three trillion people, or there being a few million clones and a few hundred-few thousand Star Destroyers to cover a million-system galactic civilization that has been around for four thousand years. Three trillion would barely cover North America in cityscape merely as dense as downtown Hong Kong, and at current rates of growth at 1%pa, the human population would hit three quintillion by 4000AD). But all of those silly scale oopsies are considered canonical by large chunks of the fanbase, apparently, and have some grounding in canon if one chooses not to use the wriggle room that canon/legends can give us.
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Re: New Clone Wars Season 7 Trailer.

Post by chimericoncogene »

New episode came out today. Certainly climactic, and intense, but it could have been better executed.
I think we have one more episode next week.
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Re: New Clone Wars Season 7 Trailer.

Post by Knife »

As I understand it, one more tomorrow. Anyway, as fan service goes, I thought they weaved it into ROTS well. That said, when Rex said in Rebels he 'didn't betray his Jedi', the new episode kind of puts that into the 'from a certain point of view' category.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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Re: New Clone Wars Season 7 Trailer.

Post by Lord Revan »

Knife wrote: 2020-05-03 06:59pm As I understand it, one more tomorrow. Anyway, as fan service goes, I thought they weaved it into ROTS well. That said, when Rex said in Rebels he 'didn't betray his Jedi', the new episode kind of puts that into the 'from a certain point of view' category.
True but I can excuse him here seeing as it wasn't really a willing betrayal so much as form on a mind control, granted that was true for every single clone.
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Re: New Clone Wars Season 7 Trailer.

Post by amigocabal »

One thing I do not understand is why Ahsoka was targeted, as she was no longer in the Jedi Order at that point. That is a major plot hole.
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Re: New Clone Wars Season 7 Trailer.

Post by Galvatron »

I thought they addressed that.
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Re: New Clone Wars Season 7 Trailer.

Post by FaxModem1 »

amigocabal wrote: 2020-05-05 01:05pm One thing I do not understand is why Ahsoka was targeted, as she was no longer in the Jedi Order at that point. That is a major plot hole.
Maul was targeted as well. I think it's a case of clearing the board of force users, past, present, and future, unless they're under the Emperor's control.
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Re: New Clone Wars Season 7 Trailer.

Post by ray245 »

Here's a thought about Rex. The whole story about how he joined the rebellion to fight against the empire? Turns out it's all in vain yet again because Palpatine wasn't truly defeated.

So nothing Rex has done in his lifetime resulted in the final end of Palpatine.
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Re: New Clone Wars Season 7 Trailer.

Post by Knife »

amigocabal wrote: 2020-05-05 01:05pm One thing I do not understand is why Ahsoka was targeted, as she was no longer in the Jedi Order at that point. That is a major plot hole.
I think it's less 'kill all pure Jedi', and more 'kill all potential enemies of Palpatine who use the Force'.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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Re: New Clone Wars Season 7 Trailer.

Post by chimericoncogene »

Knife wrote: 2020-05-05 07:03pm
amigocabal wrote: 2020-05-05 01:05pm One thing I do not understand is why Ahsoka was targeted, as she was no longer in the Jedi Order at that point. That is a major plot hole.
I think it's less 'kill all pure Jedi', and more 'kill all potential enemies of Palpatine who use the Force'.
Order 66, legally, involved the removal by force of all Jedi for treason against the Republic; the commander's intent being to eradicate the Jedi Order (especially from positions of power within the Grand Army of the Republic). Ahsoka, being a recently discharged member of the Order, could potentially have helped reconstitute it; and she was in a powerful position within the GAR, where treason would be especially dangerous. Rex and his lieutenants used their heads like normal people and concluded (correctly) that Ahsoka fell under the purview of Order 66 rather than acting like idiot battle droids and letting her go free on a technicality. They're soldiers. They're supposed to act according to their commander's intent, not follow orders to the literal letter.

Alternatively, Sidious accounted for Ahsoka and gave specific instructions for her to be included in Order 66. Jesse does mention "special orders from Lord Sidious" in the final episode.
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Re: New Clone Wars Season 7 Trailer.

Post by Reyvan »

I would bet that Sidious gave specific orders to eliminate Maul and Ahsoka. After all these are Sidious' former apprentice, and Anakin's apprentice. I would bet he specifically wanted both of them to be eliminated. Maul since he doesn't need another Rogue Sith Lord running around, and Ahsoka since he wants to isolate Anakin from anyone who could potentially get through to him. With the exception of Yoda and Obi-Wan, Ahsoka and Maul were probably his next highest priority targets.
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Re: New Clone Wars Season 7 Trailer.

Post by Knife »

chimericoncogene wrote: 2020-05-05 10:20pm
Order 66, legally, involved the removal by force of all Jedi for treason against the Republic;
I doubt that since we now have a cannon source the the... well source of the order was LORD SIDIOUS.
the commander's intent being to eradicate the Jedi Order (especially from positions of power within the Grand Army of the Republic). Ahsoka, being a recently discharged member of the Order, could potentially have helped reconstitute it; and she was in a powerful position within the GAR, where treason would be especially dangerous.
How is this really different than my statement of "not Jedi but really Force Wielders who might be against Palpatine"?
Rex and his lieutenants used their heads like normal people and concluded (correctly) that Ahsoka fell under the purview of Order 66 rather than acting like idiot battle droids
Dude, I so wanted to let you end you're statement. But damn. Used their heads like normal people? The episode even addressed this with Rex reasoning with Jessie. She's not a Jedi by any marker but she is with the light side of the Force and capable of using the Force. She's a marked target, and to not kill her is treason. AS SPELLED OUT IN THE EPISODE.
and letting her go free on a technicality. They're soldiers. They're supposed to act according to their commander's intent, not follow orders to the literal letter.
Now I know you're on drugs. Their commander explicitly tried to talk them down and was deemed a traitor for it.
Alternatively, Sidious accounted for Ahsoka and gave specific instructions for her to be included in Order 66. Jesse does mention "special orders from Lord Sidious" in the final episode.
Or... order 66 was to kill all Force users who might be a danger to LORD SIDIOUS. Since COMANDER Rex called him by SIDIOUS and not PALPATINE, we now know it was a SITH ORDER and not a REPUBLIC ORDER.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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Re: New Clone Wars Season 7 Trailer.

Post by chimericoncogene »

Knife wrote: 2020-05-06 12:46am
Or... order 66 was to kill all Force users who might be a danger to LORD SIDIOUS. Since COMANDER Rex called him by SIDIOUS and not PALPATINE, we now know it was a SITH ORDER and not a REPUBLIC ORDER.
I don't see how these things are incompatible. Rex explicitly mentioned that the Jedi were to be shot for treason. If it were a purely Sith Order, treason need not have come into it. Just "shoot the Jedi".

Lord Sidious is the Supreme Chancellor, and his orders probably include referring to him as Lord Sidious in future communiques.

Their commander is not Rex. Their commander is Lord Sidious. The commander's intent of which I spoke is Lord Sidious's intent, which all clones interpreted to be "dismantle the Jedi order by killing them all and burning their books."

And the Order obviously doesn't cover non Jedi force users like blind man Ip Man from R1 or those weird witchy cults. People in the Outer Rim who have never been associated with the Jedi or Republic might be eventual threats to Palps rule, and will have to be eliminated, but it's hard to execute them for treason, a crime against the State.

Even if Palps put it 66 in as a Sith order, he needs political cover for shooting all the Jedi, so he accused them of treason in Ep 3 when they tried to assassinate the Supreme Chancellor and take control of the Senate. So... treason must have come into the whole sequence of orders somewhere.
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Re: New Clone Wars Season 7 Trailer.

Post by Galvatron »

I thought this was already implied in ROTS when Sidious issued Order 66 to Cody, then Cody replied with: "Yes, my lord."

Did anyone previously refer to the Supreme Chancellor as "my lord?"

Moreover, if Order 66 is some super-secret Sith order, does that mean the old EU thing about it hiding in plain site among all those other orders is no longer the case?
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Re: New Clone Wars Season 7 Trailer.

Post by Knife »

chimericoncogene wrote: 2020-05-06 01:10am
Knife wrote: 2020-05-06 12:46am
Or... order 66 was to kill all Force users who might be a danger to LORD SIDIOUS. Since COMANDER Rex called him by SIDIOUS and not PALPATINE, we now know it was a SITH ORDER and not a REPUBLIC ORDER.
I don't see how these things are incompatible. Rex explicitly mentioned that the Jedi were to be shot for treason. If it were a purely Sith Order, treason need not have come into it. Just "shoot the Jedi".

Lord Sidious is the Supreme Chancellor, and his orders probably include referring to him as Lord Sidious in future communiques.

Their commander is not Rex. Their commander is Lord Sidious. The commander's intent of which I spoke is Lord Sidious's intent, which all clones interpreted to be "dismantle the Jedi order by killing them all and burning their books."

And the Order obviously doesn't cover non Jedi force users like blind man Ip Man from R1 or those weird witchy cults. People in the Outer Rim who have never been associated with the Jedi or Republic might be eventual threats to Palps rule, and will have to be eliminated, but it's hard to execute them for treason, a crime against the State.

Even if Palps put it 66 in as a Sith order, he needs political cover for shooting all the Jedi, so he accused them of treason in Ep 3 when they tried to assassinate the Supreme Chancellor and take control of the Senate. So... treason must have come into the whole sequence of orders somewhere.
I guess my issue is more with your focus on 'Jedi' and not necessarily with just 'Force Users who could be a threat to Palpatine'. I'd have to check, but I'm pretty sure Palpatine told Dooku to go wipe out the Dathomir Witches in the Clone Wars. Obviously, the Jedi were Palpatine's number one threat, and a majority of the 'plan' was to kill them off. While Asoka isn't technically a Jedi, she is still everything that could be a threat to Palpatine.

But Asoka is classically trained, and has plenty of practical experience in Force Use because of her... well experience in the Clone Wars. She's fought Seperatists, Droids, and even Force Users. All it would really take is an apprentice or two or three for her to train and the 'old' Jedi would be back. Of course, the story has had her character arc such that she would not want to do that, but from Palpatine's POV, he couldn't take that risk.

I don't think, however; that he has to put specific "Kill Jedi, and Asoka, and..." orders into Order 66. Rather a general "Kill all who might oppose me". Notice how the Clones had no problem going after Maul and he is definitely NOT a Jedi.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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Re: New Clone Wars Season 7 Trailer.

Post by Knife »

Galvatron wrote: 2020-05-06 04:15pm I thought this was already implied in ROTS when Sidious issued Order 66 to Cody, then Cody replied with: "Yes, my lord."

Did anyone previously refer to the Supreme Chancellor as "my lord?"

Moreover, if Order 66 is some super-secret Sith order, does that mean the old EU thing about it hiding in plain site among all those other orders is no longer the case?
Sure, I think this just cements it.

Yeah, as far as like 'General Order 66' where General Order 65 was to 'walk your post in a military manner, keeping always on alert' type protocol? I think so. The way I took it, so open to debate I guess, is that the Kamominians put in a series of Orders and the 66th one was Sidious' planned override. I don't think, the way they presented it, that the Orders were Republic General Orders like the old EU. More like some version of the laws or Robotics in Asimov, that stretched to at least 66.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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Re: New Clone Wars Season 7 Trailer.

Post by bilateralrope »

Ashoka isn't very good at recognising when non-lethal force is just making things harder for herself.
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Re: New Clone Wars Season 7 Trailer.

Post by chimericoncogene »

Knife wrote: 2020-05-08 01:42pm Rather a general "Kill all who might oppose me". Notice how the Clones had no problem going after Maul and he is definitely NOT a Jedi.
That would be way to broad - impossible to implement. And lots of senators and anti-Imperial military officers survived Order 66. This is not to say that further purges would not have been in the works - but that Palps would need to give additional orders for those purges to be carried out.

Dude - Rex literally says "to be shot for treason". Treason is a crime against the state. You cannot commit treason if you are not a subject of the Republic (you could argue all Seps are treasonous, though). I agree completely with your reasoning regarding why Rex thought Ahsoka was a Jedi - I noted myself two posts up that Ahsoka could easily reconstitute the Order, and Rex therefore knew that destroying the Order would entail shooting her. Lord Sidious's intent.

There is no need to postulate a broader Order 66 than the already broad mandate given to terminate the Jedi Order. You can easily justify killing nonJedi force users post hoc by claiming their access to forbidden Jedi texts or that they might be Jedi in disguise/hiding, but at this point in the purge you go after the most obvious targets first - and Ahsoka is an obvious target. Occam's razor. Most parsimonious explanation.

Maul was to be shot because he was an enemy of the Republic, and was killing clones. Escaped, armed, highly dangerous. They didn't need new orders to kill him.
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