I think Palpatine is my hero.

[AL]

I wish someone with great writing skill would write about him as an apprentice and his rise to kick ass Sith Lord. He's my hero and roll model. What a character, The only thing I wish GL would have done is made him more evil.

Any thoughts on this?????

[consequences]

Making him any more evil would have been counterproductive to the goals he was trying to achieve. In Star Wars there are few pointless acts of cruelty performed by Palpatine, thye all tend to serve a purpose of some sort. Making him more evil would mean he would have to be pointlessly cruel, and that isn't part of Lucas's vision.

[Sea Skimmer]

I think the Emperor is fine the way he is, not a good person but his end goals are in the best interest of the galaxy, as the Vong proved.

[Crown]

AL Isn't the mystery of how he is the way he is part of the appeal?

[Cal Wright]

What? Not one but TWO Death Stars? That's pointlessly evil right there. Only the use of a sun crusher weapon could make him more evil.

[Sea Skimmer]

What? Not one but TWO Death Stars? That's pointlessly evil right there. Only the use of a sun crusher weapon could make him more evil.

Actually the rule through fear doctrine would work quite well if back up by a death star. The deterrent effect would save a lot of lives in the long run, even if a couple more planets had to be blasted first. A civil war on the scale of Star Wars would kill trillions with ease. The Death star would allow much fighting to be avoided, since no one would actually be taking up arms in the first place.

[Guest]

I can't some you guys. Palpatine was evil. He overthrew the legitimate government of the galaxy, which caused the deaths of at least several million people in the Clone Wars. He forced his twisted vision of galactic tyranny on others. He allowed innocent people to be killed by the millions on Alderaan. He authorized the destruction of Endor if the death star shield were to go down. He was twisted and evil. I can't believe that some of you actually idolize him.

Your defense of Palpatine is akin to defending Hitler. Hitler's R&D programs did bring about rapid advancement of technology (ie V1,V2,ME-262 etc...). But he murdered at least six million jews and others that he didn't like. Over 20 million Russians were also killed in WWII, mainly by Hitler's Germany.


If Palpatine was truely a "good guy" there would have been other ways to prepare the galaxy for the Vong invasion.

[Guest]

I can't "believe"

[Master Arachnos]

QUOTE 'Over 20 million Russians were also killed in WWII, mainly by Hitler's Germany'.

I believe you'll find that Stalin killed more Russians than the germans ever did, not that it has anything to do with the subject at hand...

[Guest]

QUOTE 'Over 20 million Russians were also killed in WWII, mainly by Hitler's Germany'.

I believe you'll find that Stalin killed more Russians than the germans ever did, not that it has anything to do with the subject at hand...

Master Arachnos,

I wholeheartedly agree with you. Stalin was a bastard just like Hitler. My point was that Hitler prosecuted a war that cost the lives of millions of people, just like Palpatine. I wasn't trying to insinuate that Hitler was somehow a more moral man than Stalin.

[Joe]

Not to mention that Palpatine would have slaughtered the entire Vong race - including the innocents - had he remained in power. When the Rebels manage to defeat the Vong, which they will soon, they surely will not do this.

[Coalition]

Palpatine could have been looking at history though.

I.e. the Star wars galaxy was unified by Xim the Despot 25,000 years ago.

In AOTC, Palpatine said that the Republic had stood for 1,000 years.

Therefore, a dictator-like government had lasted for 24,000 years, but the Republic had lasted for 1,000, and was falling apart as he watched.

From that, he was trying to go with a government that had worked, for a long time, and his decision to turn the Republic into an Empire was an attempt to preserve Galactic Unity.

Of course, there were some short-sighted people who disagreed with that. Not to mention that most people thought the Empire was evil (Luke Skywalker in SW4), but didn't Luke put in an application to the Imperial Academy?

So Luke could either believe that the Empire was evil, but he was willing to work for it, or he believed he could change the system from within. The first option allows for a grey area of evil, while the second allows the Emperor to get millions of self-motivated individuals to join his military machine.

Either way, Palpy wins.

[Mr Bean]

In AOTC, Palpatine said that the Republic had stood for 1,000 years.

Acutal the exact quote as I some-how ended up with the Divx verisons of ATOC and TPM somehow on my computer he says 1000 Generations and thats repeated through-out EU and the other movies

1000 Generations

Xim the Depost was 25k Years ago so thats anywhere from 25x1000 or 25,000 years ago to the more likley 20x1000 or 20,000 Years ago

IE the OR has been in power about 20k years

[AL]

AL Isn't the mystery of how he is the way he is part of the appeal?

Yes the mystery is part of his evil appeal. I bet he was a great sith apprentice. I wonder who his master was. Just think of the evil guy that trained Palpatine. Man what an evil guy he must have been.

[Kuja]

Maybe after Ep III is completed, we'll get to see some of Palpatine's origins.

[Daedalus]

Palpatine could have been looking at history though.

I.e. the Star wars galaxy was unified by Xim the Despot 25,000 years ago.

In AOTC, Palpatine said that the Republic had stood for 1,000 years.

Therefore, a dictator-like government had lasted for 24,000 years, but the Republic had lasted for 1,000, and was falling apart as he watched.

From that, he was trying to go with a government that had worked, for a long time, and his decision to turn the Republic into an Empire was an attempt to preserve Galactic Unity.

Of course, there were some short-sighted people who disagreed with that. Not to mention that most people thought the Empire was evil (Luke Skywalker in SW4), but didn't Luke put in an application to the Imperial Academy?

So Luke could either believe that the Empire was evil, but he was willing to work for it, or he believed he could change the system from within. The first option allows for a grey area of evil, while the second allows the Emperor to get millions of self-motivated individuals to join his military machine.

Either way, Palpy wins.

Yes, well said indeed.

Palpy is simply a pragmatist. Republics always fall into despotism eventually - and that is the far more palatable possibility. Imagine an anarchic SW senario, wherein warlords can run amuck with 200GT weapons?

Plus, who can possibly think of a better candidate for the job of sole galactic tyrant? He is easily able to cloak his inner motives and ambitions from even the most perceptive & powerful of the Jedi Masters, implying a greater mastery of the force itself. That combined with utterly elegant Machiavellian machination...

Tyranny itself really has just been demonized. I mean, the majority of ancient Greek societies weren't democracies... they were either tyrannies or Royal dynasties.

People need to be forced into a passive, mutually-beneficial state of being. Fear of punishment, combined with the tangible benefits of productivity. ( - The total lack of either making the ST/Feddie 'utopian' vision even far less than plausible.)

[Mr Bean]

Yes, well said indeed.

Though wrong on the time frame(See my post, OR lasted 1,000 GENERATIONS not years)
It was well said however

[Evil Jerk]

I can't some you guys. Palpatine was evil. He overthrew the legitimate government of the galaxy,

The same government that voted him in and gave him the powers to do so.
It's their damn fault, and before you say they were manipulated, they were manipulated because they were already corrupt and stupid, the Republic would've gone sooner or later, Palpatine merely sped up the pace a bit.

And speaking of legitimate governments, the Empire was the legitimate government of the OT era, yet the Rebels used terrorism to bring it down and cause vast amounts of death in a civil war.

which caused the deaths of at least several million people in the Clone Wars.

It was a war, people die in wars. And before you say he started it, again things look like a war was inevitable anyway, indeed, Palpatine may have saved lives by goading the Seperatists into attacking early and preparing the Clone Army.

He forced his twisted vision of galactic tyranny on others. He allowed innocent people to be killed by the millions on Alderaan.

Alderaan sponsored terrorism against the Empire, it was secretly arming itself to aid the Rebellion.
Palpatine did what any government in any era would if they could.

He authorized the destruction of Endor if the death star shield were to go down.

Right, because we really give a damn if the Ewoks burn in their pathetic little world, not to mention that the Rebels thought nothing of obliterating the DS over Endor, thus dooming it to a much slower death by nuclear winter.

He was twisted and evil. I can't believe that some of you actually idolize him.

Maybe because he's cool, maybe because the Empire worked where the Old and New Republics failed miserably, maybe because he's a fictional character..

Your defense of Palpatine is akin to defending Hitler. Hitler's R&D programs did bring about rapid advancement of technology (ie V1,V2,ME-262 etc...). But he murdered at least six million jews and others that he didn't like. Over 20 million Russians were also killed in WWII, mainly by Hitler's Germany.

Hitler killed for the sake of killing to fulfill his idiotic agenda of a master race, Palpatine killed in order to maintain order against a bunch of terrorists who were starting a WAR that could lead to much more death.
Besides which, Hitler and Stalin are reviled, but Julius Caeser isn't - he killed people too and established an empire known for it's oppression.
Not all dictators are automatically declared evil for the sake of morals, it may not be right, but that's how it is.

If Palpatine was truely a "good guy" there would have been other ways to prepare the galaxy for the Vong invasion.

What do you suggest? How could he perform such a large military build up without his Empire? How could he maintain control over the populace?
Especially when the Rebellion would be there no matter what, simply because their fat Senators are no longer enjoying the kickbacks the Old Republic provided?

Not to mention that Palpatine would have slaughtered the entire Vong race - including the innocents - had he remained in power. When the Rebels manage to defeat the Vong, which they will soon, they surely will not do this.

So? Who cares? They're technology hating creeps who like to kill anybody who doesn't agree with them, they deserve to be exterminated.
As Palpatine would say: "Wipe them out. All of them."

[Joe]

The same government that voted him in and gave him the powers to do so.
It's their damn fault, and before you say they were manipulated, they were manipulated because they were already corrupt and stupid, the Republic would've gone sooner or later, Palpatine merely sped up the pace a bit.

And speaking of legitimate governments, the Empire was the legitimate government of the OT era, yet the Rebels used terrorism to bring it down and cause vast amounts of death in a civil war.

Voted him in with the assumption that he would give up his power when the conflict was over. They were stupid and naive for making this assumption, but the fact remains that they did not intend to make Palpatine the permanent dictator of the galaxy.

Governments lose their legitimacy when they become destructive to the ends of protecting the lives and liberties of their citizens, to borrow from Jefferson.

It was a war, people die in wars. And before you say he started it, again things look like a war was inevitable anyway, indeed, Palpatine may have saved lives by goading the Seperatists into attacking early and preparing the Clone Army.

Was it inevitable? Let's take a look. Remove Palpatine from the equation. No invasion of Naboo, no legislation designed to drive certain interests to petition for secession from the Republic, and no Count Dooku to spearhead the Separatist movement. And in any case, as Supreme Chancellor, it was Palpatine's job to attempt to prevent war. If Palpatine really had the best interests of the galaxy at heart, perhaps he would not have done his very best to ensure that a war would break out. Even if war was likely to happen with or without Palpatine like you say, perhaps a Chancellor who was really interested in peace could have prevented it. Also, you contradict yourself here. It's OK for people to die in Palpatine's war, but not OK for people to die in the Rebellion's war (which was in fact provoked by Imperial tyranny)?

Alderaan sponsored terrorism against the Empire, it was secretly arming itself to aid the Rebellion.
Palpatine did what any government in any era would if they could.

So obviously everyone on Alderaan is guilty and must be destroyed, then?

Right, because we really give a damn if the Ewoks burn in their pathetic little world, not to mention that the Rebels thought nothing of obliterating the DS over Endor, thus dooming it to a much slower death by nuclear winter.

It appears the Rebels were not aware of the presence of Ewoks on Endor. The RoTJ radio drama corroborates this.

Hitler killed for the sake of killing to fulfill his idiotic agenda of a master race, Palpatine killed in order to maintain order against a bunch of terrorists who were starting a WAR that could lead to much more death.
Besides which, Hitler and Stalin are reviled, but Julius Caeser isn't - he killed people too and established an empire known for it's oppression.
Not all dictators are automatically declared evil for the sake of morals, it may not be right, but that's how it is.

How were the countless alien races that Palpatine murdered and enslaved guilty of starting a war?

And speak for yourself about Caesar. I revile him. Intensely.

So? Who cares? They're technology hating creeps who like to kill anybody who doesn't agree with them, they deserve to be exterminated.
As Palpatine would say: "Wipe them out. All of them."

Well, since you seem to be a genocidal maniac also (based on this statement, at least), I can see why you would like Palpatine.

[Evil Jerk]

Voted him in with the assumption that he would give up his power when the conflict was over. They were stupid and naive for making this assumption, but the fact remains that they did not intend to make Palpatine the permanent dictator of the galaxy.

Obviously, but the fact remains that they WERE naive and stupid, and Palpatine would've had a far tougher time taking over had the Republic functioned well.

Governments lose their legitimacy when they become destructive to the ends of protecting the lives and liberties of their citizens, to borrow from Jefferson.

That describes the Old Republic quite nicely, actually.

Was it inevitable? Let's take a look. Remove Palpatine from the equation. No invasion of Naboo, no legislation designed to drive certain interests to petition for secession from the Republic, and no Count Dooku to spearhead the Separatist movement. And in any case, as Supreme Chancellor, it was Palpatine's job to attempt to prevent war. If Palpatine really had the best interests of the galaxy at heart, perhaps he would not have done his very best to ensure that a war would break out. Even if war was likely to happen with or without Palpatine like you say, perhaps a Chancellor who was really interested in peace could have prevented it. Also, you contradict yourself here. It's OK for people to die in Palpatine's war, but not OK for people to die in the Rebellion's war (which was in fact provoked by Imperial tyranny)?

I am saying that a war of some kind would've happened sooner or later.
The Trade Federation for instance give me the impression that they would've tried something like the Naboo blockade sometime even without Sidious' backing, it's just that it might've taken a lot longer, and cost more lives.
Palpatine nipped it in the bud and took power at the same time, so my point is that a lot less people died in Palpatine's war than would've died in any latter war that would've happened with or without him.

So obviously everyone on Alderaan is guilty and must be destroyed, then?

That's how governments operate, it may not be pretty, but that's how the real world works, everyone in Hiroshima or Nagasaki or Dresden weren't guilty, but they suffered a-bombs and fire bombing nonetheless.

It appears the Rebels were not aware of the presence of Ewoks on Endor. The RoTJ radio drama corroborates this.

Not that they seemed to suffer a pang of guilt after they found out (if this is true).
Regardless, Ewoks are insignificant.

How were the countless alien races that Palpatine murdered and enslaved guilty of starting a war?

Rebel propaganda.

And speak for yourself about Caesar. I revile him. Intensely.

I never said *I* had any love for Caesar either, but generally he is not held in the same light as people such as Hitler.

Well, since you seem to be a genocidal maniac also (based on this statement, at least), I can see why you would like Palpatine.

I abhor genocide, really.
But in the case of the Vong, they started it, they need a taste of their own medicine. Vong innocents? No such thing.

[Joe]

Governments lose their legitimacy when they become destructive to the ends of protecting the lives and liberties of their citizens, to borrow from Jefferson.

That describes the Old Republic quite nicely, actually.

Describes the Empire even better.

Was it inevitable? Let's take a look. Remove Palpatine from the equation. No invasion of Naboo, no legislation designed to drive certain interests to petition for secession from the Republic, and no Count Dooku to spearhead the Separatist movement. And in any case, as Supreme Chancellor, it was Palpatine's job to attempt to prevent war. If Palpatine really had the best interests of the galaxy at heart, perhaps he would not have done his very best to ensure that a war would break out. Even if war was likely to happen with or without Palpatine like you say, perhaps a Chancellor who was really interested in peace could have prevented it. Also, you contradict yourself here. It's OK for people to die in Palpatine's war, but not OK for people to die in the Rebellion's war (which was in fact provoked by Imperial tyranny)?

I am saying that a war of some kind would've happened sooner or later.
The Trade Federation for instance give me the impression that they would've tried something like the Naboo blockade sometime even without Sidious' backing, it's just that it might've taken a lot longer, and cost more lives.
Palpatine nipped it in the bud and took power at the same time, so my point is that a lot less people died in Palpatine's war than would've died in any latter war that would've happened with or without him.

No. The Trade Federation gains nothing from the invasion of Naboo beyond what Sidious has agreed to do. It is clear that the Trade Federation would not invade Naboo, nor any other obscure planet were it not for their "bargain" with Sidious. Without Palpatine/Sidious there is no invasion of Naboo, and there is no Separatist movement.

So obviously everyone on Alderaan is guilty and must be destroyed, then?

That's how governments operate, it may not be pretty, but that's how the real world works, everyone in Hiroshima or Nagasaki or Dresden weren't guilty, but they suffered a-bombs and fire bombing nonetheless.

That doesn't make it right, or just.

How were the countless alien races that Palpatine murdered and enslaved guilty of starting a war?

Rebel propaganda.

The Noghri, Wookiees, and the Mon Calamari are not propaganda.

Well, since you seem to be a genocidal maniac also (based on this statement, at least), I can see why you would like Palpatine.

I abhor genocide, really.
But in the case of the Vong, they started it, they need a taste of their own medicine. Vong innocents? No such thing.

There are Vong innocents. This is dealt with in Rebirth.

[Evil Jerk]

Describes the Empire even better.

The Empire protected it's *loyal* citizens.

No. The Trade Federation gains nothing from the invasion of Naboo beyond what Sidious has agreed to do. It is clear that the Trade Federation would not invade Naboo, nor any other obscure planet were it not for their "bargain" with Sidious. Without Palpatine/Sidious there is no invasion of Naboo, and there is no Separatist movement.

Perhaps not Naboo specifically, but they would've tried something sometime.

That doesn't make it right, or just.

Of course not, but Palpatine should not be singled out as so despicably evil because he did it, too.

The Noghri, Wookiees, and the Mon Calamari are not propaganda.

So say the Rebels.

There are Vong innocents. This is dealt with in Rebirth.

Eh, not familiar with that one, but nevertheless, a Vong is a Vong.
They hate technology and are (let's face it) self-mutilating freaks, that's good enough reason to kill off their kind.

[Joe]

Describes the Empire even better.

The Empire protected it's *loyal* citizens.

So if the Empire had torn across the galaxy, slaughtering everyone it decided was not a "loyal" citizen, that would have been OK?

No. The Trade Federation gains nothing from the invasion of Naboo beyond what Sidious has agreed to do. It is clear that the Trade Federation would not invade Naboo, nor any other obscure planet were it not for their "bargain" with Sidious. Without Palpatine/Sidious there is no invasion of Naboo, and there is no Separatist movement.

Perhaps not Naboo specifically, but they would've tried something sometime.

Without the benefit of secrecy on account of Sidious's meddling in the Senate? No, they wouldn't. Too risky.

The Noghri, Wookiees, and the Mon Calamari are not propaganda.

So say the Rebels.

So say the Noghri, Wookiees, and Mon Calamari, too.

There are Vong innocents. This is dealt with in Rebirth.

Eh, not familiar with that one, but nevertheless, a Vong is a Vong. They hate technology and are (let's face it) self-mutilating freaks, that's good enough reason to kill off their kind.

No, it's not. You can't kill off an entire race because you disagree with their way of life. It doesn't matter how repulsive their way of life is.

[Evil Jerk]

So if the Empire had torn across the galaxy, slaughtering everyone it decided was not a "loyal" citizen, that would have been OK?

Well, it didn't really appear to do that, so that's irrelevant.

Without the benefit of secrecy on account of Sidious's meddling in the Senate? No, they wouldn't. Too risky.

Why? As the Republic got more and more corrupt, what would stop them from paying off a few Senators to do the same kind of meddling that Sidious did? I think it was implied that they had a few beaurocrats in their pockets already.

So say the Noghri, Wookiees, and Mon Calamari, too.

Yeah, and who are they sympathetic to?

No, it's not. You can't kill off an entire race because you disagree with their way of life. It doesn't matter how repulsive their way of life is.

Nope, but Palpatine could
Anybody would be perfectly justified in hunting them all down after what they tried to do.

[Joe]

Well, it didn't really appear to do that, so that's irrelevant.

That's exactly what it did with Alderaan. It did not take the time to make sure that those on Alderaan were, in fact, traitors. It acted on a whim.

Why? As the Republic got more and more corrupt, what would stop them from paying off a few Senators to do the same kind of meddling that Sidious did? I think it was implied that they had a few beaurocrats in their pockets already.

Well, without Sidious/Palpatine, there would be no trade taxes, and there would be no reason to invade anything. EU literature suggests that the taxes were Palpatine's idea. The Trade Federation does have a fairly nonviolent history.

Yeah, and who are they sympathetic to?

Their own respective races. There is no evidence to suggest that these stories of oppression are actually Rebel propaganda. Or at least none that you have produced.

Nope, but Palpatine could
Anybody would be perfectly justified in hunting them all down after what they tried to do.

No, they wouldn't. That is genocide, period, no way around it, and if you say you abhor genocide (and I'm certaintly not implying that you don't), you should realize this.