Tribble wrote:
We are talking about a group that:
permanently takes infants away from their families to raise and teach in total isolation explicitly because that way they will have no emotional attachments with other people.
... because they themselves went through an age where having more than one student per master had fostered jealousy and resulted fallen Jedi becoming Sith, at least in EU/Legends.
QUI-GON:" I will train him, then. I take Anakin as my Padawan learner."
OBI-WAN reacts with surprise. ANAKIN watches with interest.
YODA: "An apprentice, you have, Qui-Gon. Impossible, to take on a second."
And it isn't "no attachment to people", it's that lofty "unconditional love", so you don't have your decisions guided by fear of losing someone special, like family, or your Master, even. As a result, the Rule of Two among the Jedi, recruiting the super young, and a record of only a handful of Jedi ever leaving the Order. They weren't prohibited from leaving the Order; Dooku left and went back to assume his inherited role of Count (presumably).
It was because Dooku was Sith and working with the Separatists that Obi-Wan opposed him. Once Dooku realized he wasn't going to be able to take out Palpatine on his own, he even attempted to recruit Obi-Wan to help him. Sith thing, or "gone native" on a secret mission of his own choosing? Dunno.
It took years of war for the Council to consider Dooku was telling the truth, and set Anakin to watch and report back.
Tribble wrote:
apparently does not see the moral issues arising from teaching said infants and children how to be effective in policing and combat (are child police/soldiers legal in the Republic?)
Jedi aren't trained to be police, they are trained in
defense, because evangelizing cooperation can put them in a dangerous position. They weren't police. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan visited the Trade Fed blockade as
ambassadors to the Supreme Chancellor. If they had "a job" already, they would have gone in that capacity. It wasn't until
AOTC that Jedi were dropped in as leaders of the Clone Army by Palpatine. Jedi motives were always the same: advance cooperation. The engagements were different from that time on (being war). Want to? No. Have to?
Maybe. The number of Jedi lost in the arena before the Clone Army arrived on Geonosis suggest they aren't very well trained for combat,
almost as if it isn't their job.
Are Jedi even trained in using blasters? Or just the badge of office, the lightsaber?
Tribble wrote:
does not view combating slavery as a priority, apparently because it is "not part of their mandate"
Or they actually have no power outside of folk-heroism to do anything about it, since they are neither soldier nor police, inside the Republic or
beyond its borders.
SHMI: "The Republic doesn't exist out here... we must survive on our own."
Qui-Gon was stuck on his "big picture" once he identified Anakin as the Chosen One. His actions could be seen as a "path of least resistance" solution, or "least offensive" to the local powers-that-be. He made every effort
except violence to get both Anakin and Shmi from Watto. Do the Jedi exert their political will on others? No.
Padme was
still in danger of assassination, and "the Chosen One" blinded Qui-Gon's decision-making.
QUI-GON: "Don't center on your anxiety, Obi-Wan.
Keep your concentration here and now where it belongs."
Qui-Gon was blind to the future, Yoda was lost to it; personal failings, not systematic.
Tribble wrote:
after reluctantly deciding to train an 8 year old solely due to his potential and a prophecy, did nothing to free his mother from slavery and is astonished that he gets upset over it.
Qui-Gon wasn't going to endanger Shmi or Anakin, and was fixated on the "solution" of the prophecy. "Family ties" was outside of his own experience, since he had let go of his own family years before to embrace the duty and responsibilities of being a Jedi. Obi-Wan had spent the next (to AOTC) ten years training Anakin in the Jedi code.
Why not free all the slaves? Why not make the Republic work how they wanted? Because that isn't the Will of the Force.
Had mom been an issue before the dreams on Naboo? No, Anakin had been dreaming about Padme, until Naboo, when she was being tortured. He got the same test Luke did: someone you're attached to is in danger. But Luke didn't give in and massacre a village over it. Do you see why attachment is a manipulation Jedi don't want?
Tribble wrote:
has a leader whose response to "I'm worried about people I love suffering and dying is" is "let them die and don't mourn their loss, you have better things to do". Not just to Anakin, but to Luke as well.
At least quote the whole thing -
YODA: "Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them, do not. Miss them, do not. Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed, that is."
ANAKIN: "What must I do, Master Yoda?"
YODA: "Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose."
Jedi aren't a wizards guild, they're a
monastic order with proof that their philosophy is more than faith-based; it has tangible, demonstrable power. Hell,
TPM even explained
why it works. It isn't about "thoughts and prayers" like religion we in the West are familiar with. Yoda is reciting the philosophy of the Jedi: to be selfless, to remove ego from decisions, to surrender to the Will of the Force.
OBI-WAN, ANH: "
Let go, Luke!"
and
YODA, ESB: "Decide you must how to serve them best. If you leave now, help them you could.
But you would destroy all for which they have fought and suffered."
Which was about as direct as Yoda could get to saying "your friends are bait: if you go,
they lose" while still respecting Luke's freedom to choose. Also possible it was part of his training: "how to lose with humility."
Tribble wrote:
Has no problems playing kingmaker and influencing the outcomes of political leadership contests
Where did any Jedi influence votes in the galactic Senate? Where did they pick the leadership of the Rebellion?
Quite the opposite: they clearly didn't step in, anywhere! If Qui-Gon had testified to the Senate, it would have upset Palpatine's apple-cart. And if your position that they were the police and/or military were correct, they would have been obligated to report. They weren't: the Jedi Order did not exist to rule the Republic, but to serve it
as their philosophy guided them. They were respected, they were regarded well, but they weren't police, they weren't an army.
Tribble wrote:
Has no problems assuming generalship over an unknown army created by a deceased Jedi with ties to the leader of the separatist faction (himself a former Jedi) using a known enemy bounty hunter as a template. All of which simply to rescue themselves.
Did you watch
AOTC? There was plenty "this is a bad thing" going on among the Jedi leadership. Yoda, specifically, and the council looked to him. So either a) Yoda saw that it was going to happen and nothing he could do would prevent it, and/or b) he did everything he could to minimize the damage. The Jedi took charge of the army because they were manipulated into it. The clone army was really good at taking orders; designed for it. But the Jedi went in first to rescue their own, and after heavy losses,
then the clone army turned up and engaged the Separatist army.
Obi-Wan also didn't manage to get a full report to the Council in time to influence their decision re: the clone army; he was distracted by Dooku turning out as Tyrannus. There was a lot of rush stacked on to this, and decision-making suffered for it.
Tribble wrote:
Has no problems picking sides over what was inherently a political conflict, while utterly failing to see the corruption on their own side until it was too late
TPM - Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan go to diffuse the Trade Federation friction at Naboo. Palpatine uncorks his decades-long plan the Jedi had been blinded to. The Jedi picked sides? They picked "peaceful resolution to this trade dispute" and got bush-whacked.
OBI-WAN : "Yes, Master...how do you think the trade viceroy will deal with the chancellor's demands?" (You know, the democratically-elected leader of the legal body to which the TF belongs?)
QUI-GON : "These Federation types are cowards. The
negotiations will be short."
later,
QUI-GON: "I cannot fight a war for you, Your Highness, only protect you." Huh. Seems to be clearly "advance cooperation" rather than "picking sides".
AOTC - Here's some of those excellent indications of your "picking sides" position:
COUNT DOOKU: "I bring you good news, my Lord. The war has begun."
DARTH SIDIOUS: "Excellent." (smiling) "Everything is going
as planned."
PALPATINE: "Master Yoda, do you think it will really come to war?"
YODA: (closes his eyes) "Worse than war, I fear... Much worse."
PALPATINE: "What?"
MACE WINDU: "What do you sense, Master?"
YODA: "Impossible to see ...
The Dark Side clouds everything. But this I am sure of - (opens his eyes) Do their duty the Jedi will."
Seems resigned to the Bad Thing he feels is coming, but sticking to Jedi philosophy; obligation to others.
OBI-WAN: "(continuing) I must admit without the clones, it would not have been a victory."
YODA: "Victory? Victory, you say?"
OBI-WAN turns and looks at the sad little Jedi sitting in the Council Chamber. Apart from KI-ADI-MUNDI and PLO KOON, who is wounded, the Chamber is empty.
YODA: "(continuing) Not victory,
a defeat, it was... Master Obi-Wan. Begun, the Clone War has!"