Lightsabers

[Shroom Man 777]

My arnis/eskrima instructor had a good question.

If a lightsaber is weightless, or at least if it's hilt is very light and the beam-blade part is weightless, why do some Jedi hold the saber high over their heads and why do many of them hold it with both hands?

Isn't a high-overhead hold for heavier swords that take more force to swing, or those whose weight + gravity = total bisecting shit-ruining? And isn't a two-handed hold also done for more weighty swords?

Aren't lighter swords like rapiers held with one hand, where their low weights allow the user to wield them with speed and precision (though since those swords aren't huge and heavy, they can't do heavy killy swinging head-chopping strikes)?

So if you've got a sword that's lighter than even a rapier, yet a tiny flick can do more damage and more amputations and decaffeinations than a bastard sword, then won't holding it more like a rapier or some other lighter sword-weapon be more effective than needlessly holding it like it's a heavy sword which it isn't?

Won't holding a lightsaber like a heavy sword make you not as fast as a guy holding it like a rapier, and in these duels won't reaction time be darn important against guys wielding really light and really fast (laser) blades that can cut through anything?

[Darth Yoshi]

I seem to recall reading once that there's a gyroscopic effect, so that even though the blade is massless it still has inertia, but I don't remember the source to that.

[Shroom Man 777]

How does that work? It weighs less than a rapier but because of... "inertia"... when you swing it, it's got more... oomph than it actually weighs?

Maybe the hilt is made out of neutronium. Imagine, it produces a funky contained beam that can melt durasteels. Like, it's like a micro-fusion reactor or some other extreme energetic process inside that thing. Maybe all the containment and stuff involves superdense exotic materials and the extremely miniaturized high energy power source compact enough to fit your hand hilt is way heavier than any sharpened piece of metal waved around by some samurai knight guy.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I recall something about the blade needing very little effort to actually swing it, but you need considerable force when actually sutting through something.

And the gyroscopic effect thingy was mentioned in the original trilogy visual dictionary IIRC.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

How does that work? It weighs less than a rapier but because of... "inertia"... when you swing it, it's got more... oomph than it actually weighs?

Maybe the hilt is made out of neutronium. Imagine, it produces a funky contained beam that can melt durasteels. Like, it's like a micro-fusion reactor or some other extreme energetic process inside that thing. Maybe all the containment and stuff involves superdense exotic materials and the extremely miniaturized high energy power source compact enough to fit your hand hilt is way heavier than any sharpened piece of metal waved around by some samurai knight guy.

The problem with that idea is whenever a Jedi's not actively wielding it, it just hangs happily from their belt, apparently not weighing them down in the slightest. There's also the fact that Han certainly had no trouble controlling it with one hand while he was busy making an intestine-bed for Luke on Hoth.

[TC Pilot]

I figure it's just a matter of fighting style. We see Vader, for example, switch from one-handed to two-handed against Luke in ESB. Plus, maybe there's an issue of simply holding on to the thing... they have grips to them, but I'd guess it would be a lot easier to hold onto it with two hands instead of just one.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

How many fencers do you see using a two-handed grip on their rapiers? Certain fighting styles for certain types of weapons simply don't practically work. The inertia-gyroscope thing kinda sorta makes sense... except we see Anakin dual-wielding in AotC without inertia issues, Vader tends to jump from one-handed to two-handed without a problem, and Grievious certainly had no trouble whirling four blades around while his half-arms remained in a stationary position. That and if it was really the case, then the choreographers missed a golden-opportunity to display some truly unique fighting-styles based around the gyroscopic properties of the blade.

Imagine fight-scenes where, essentially, the focus was more around the rapid movement of your body around a blade spinning and whirling in a stationary position, as it requires more effort to move a blade out of its set position than to simply move your body around it... or fights that involved the combatants taking advantage of the lightsabers' unique gravitational properties and tossing them up at each other, causing the blades to spin in place far more than any mundane sword could and using them more like flying buzzsaws than actual swords. If Equilibrium could make something unique and visually spectacular with Gunkata, I don't see why they couldn't do the same with gyroscopic nightmare-blades in Star Wars.

And that would be fucking awesome.

[Formless]

This is going to depend on how a lightsaber works, of course. This was discussed here. A good point to keep in mind from that thread is that there may be many ways of constructing a lightsaber, and that the name may just be a generic label for "glowing bullshit Jedi sword".

That said, the most obvious answer is that the sword isn't necessarily mass-less. One of the designs discussed there was basically an expanding baton made of ceramic that vented superhot plasma through millions of pores, burning anything that it touched. That wouldn't be massless, and might require a two handed grip to control a longer blade. Another one that I like is the theory that the advanced lightsabers seen in the films actually have a 2d spinning singularity as the blade with the light coming off being some kind of hawking radiation. This gives them the gyroscope factor, and would likewise give the blade enough mass to warrant two handed styles.




Of course, it goes without saying that the real reason is the props weren't mass-less, they were sticks that got special effects put over them. But that's about as useful as saying "because two handed grips look cool".

[Solauren]

That's actually always something that bothered me. A real lightsaber shouldn't way much more then a Flashlight (if that). They might mass as much as a broom-handle, but should be significantly below something like say, a Katana. (I have never handled a rapier or a fencing sword, so I have no idea how much they weigh).

And all that mass is in the handle.

Yet, we see lightsabers knock people around (i.e Luke knocking a guard off a skiff), and block blaster bolts.
Blaster bolts I can kind of see, depending on the mechanics of how a lightsaber works.

However, the knocking around of people.....

The only things I can think of are...

The number of hands increases the control of the lightsaber. (Try swining a baseball bat one handed vs two handed, for example). Some lightsabers moves might be easier to execute two handed vs one handed (and vice versa).

The Jedi's movement of the handle might be what's providing the 'ump', and the blade is merely the conductor. I admit, that is massive handwaving on my part, but it's the only thing that makes sense.

Especially since Jedi without TK abilities (i.e Corran Horn) can use a Lightsaber without a problem, this means that the umph isn't provided by the Jedi using the Force.

[Shroom Man 777]

Yet, we see lightsabers knock people around (i.e Luke knocking a guard off a skiff), and block blaster bolts.
Blaster bolts I can kind of see, depending on the mechanics of how a lightsaber works.

The guy could've been knocked off because the superheated energy blade cutting into his flesh could've made him gone "yeouch!" and I think I'd also fall off if something really hot and really cutty was burning into my ass.

I can get double-hand-holding against blaster bolts though.

[Azron_Stoma]

I recall Lucas saying that Lightsabers were really heavy when they were doing the OT.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

I recall Lucas saying that Lightsabers were really heavy when they were doing the OT.

You can tell by the way Obi, Darth and Luke walk with a noticeably altered gait when those really heavy sabers are hanging from their belts, from the evident difficulty the decrepid old Emperor had while he was ponderously heaving Luke's saber back and forth in his hands while inspecting it, how Luke's oiled farmboy muscles bulged and glistened with sweat as he let loose a primal, strengthening growl while experimentally waving the saber Obi-wan gave him for the very first time in ANH, and from when Han had to grunt and strain and moan when he used one hand to make Luke's intestine-bed on Hoth.

...unless he's talking about the props themselves, rather than how they're supposed to be 'in-universe' as it were.

[VF5SS]

how Luke's oiled farmboy muscles bulged and glistened with sweat as he let loose a primal, strengthening growl while experimentally waving the saber Obi-wan gave him for the very first time in ANH, and from when Han had to grunt and strain and moan when he used one hand to make Luke's intestine-bed on Hoth.

oh hawt

[Darth Tedious]

Another out-of-universe reason for the two-handed grip is that the choreography in the OT was largely based on kendo techniques.

In-universe, there is the issue that sabers (massless or not) interact with other sabers. Two hands allows more strength and stability when duelling. Not that it applies to fights against blaster-wielding opponents.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

Another out-of-universe reason for the two-handed grip is that the choreography in the OT was largely based on kendo techniques.

In-universe, there is the issue that sabers (massless or not) interact with other sabers. Two hands allows more strength and stability when duelling. Not that it applies to fights against blaster-wielding opponents.

That kind of makes sense... but then the first Jedi to adopt a style more akin to fencing will go on a sheer pwnage spree against all comers until they manage to adapt their own styles.

Not to say that fencing is inherently a better style than kendo (iirc, someone who mastered both said that most duels would end in mutual destruction as each one in cultural isolation had no need to counter the others' attacks), merely that it's a far better fit for lighter blades.

[Shroom Man 777]

Maybe this explains why Dooku was such a boss (until he got his face chopped off)?

[Eternal_Freedom]

Damn, Ninja'd by Shroom.

Look up Lightsaber forms on wookipedia. Dooku used Form II: Makashi, and there's a quoe somewhere about him being "a consumate fencer." Form II is the ultimate evolution of swordsmanship.

Most Jedi (Qui-Gon, Yoda etc) use Form IV: Ataru, which is a balanced form for dealing with non-Lightsaber armed foes (because they thought the Sith were extinct, so the odds of entering into pure lightsaber combat were slim).

Obi and Anakin use Form III: Soresu and Fom V: Djem So, which are more defensive and more energetic respectively. They're better for protecting yourself against many foes but not so good at one single opponent, hence why Dooku whooped their butts on Geonosis.

[Shroom Man 777]

I guess that makes sense.

"We hold it with both hands at this position because we spend most of our time playing tennis with explosive energy shuttlecocks turboblaster bolts and seldom really encounter badasses using lightsabers too so we're actually suboptimal for swordfighting so when some assbeater who knows his swordfighting shit comes at us, we ended up getting our asses Dooku'ed."

Man, I am envisioning these Jedi lightsaber methodologies as, like, less like swordy martial arts but more like the art of deflecting multiple incoming balls(! said Wedge Antilles) with a tennis racket that can also cut through anything.

[Eternal_Freedom]

That's a pretty apt description. Why else would lightsaber training consist of blocking shots from a drone, as seen in ANH and AOTC?

[Solauren]

Yet, we see lightsabers knock people around (i.e Luke knocking a guard off a skiff), and block blaster bolts.
Blaster bolts I can kind of see, depending on the mechanics of how a lightsaber works.

The guy could've been knocked off because the superheated energy blade cutting into his flesh could've made him gone "yeouch!" and I think I'd also fall off if something really hot and really cutty was burning into my ass.

I can get double-hand-holding against blaster bolts though.

I was more thinking when he was walking his way from one end of the skiff to the other, right before we saw that. However, you are right, that's gotta hurt.

[Shroom Man 777]

Even if it didn't touch him at all, he might've been spooked enough to recoil and back off and jump back and then, whoops, straight into the Saarlaac's gut!

[Simon_Jester]

My arnis/eskrima instructor had a good question.

I don't think there's an answer.

So if you've got a sword that's lighter than even a rapier, yet a tiny flick can do more damage and more amputations and decaffeinations than a bastard sword, then won't holding it more like a rapier or some other lighter sword-weapon be more effective than needlessly holding it like it's a heavy sword which it isn't?

Won't holding a lightsaber like a heavy sword make you not as fast as a guy holding it like a rapier, and in these duels won't reaction time be darn important against guys wielding really light and really fast (laser) blades that can cut through anything?

This is a good point.

As said above, you'll note that Christopher Lee, who probably has more actual combat experience than any other person ever to hold a lightsaber on film, seems to have decided that he and/or his stunt double should be holding the lightsaber like a fencing foil. Heck, he even had one with a handle that curves in a sort of pistol-grip, much like fencing swords usually do.

I like your idea that Jedi lightsaber training is optimized for stopping blaster bolts- more like tennis than fencing. I don't know about you, but if I were suddenly made a Jedi, I'd actually be a lot more worried about being shot full of blaster holes than about lightsabers. There are no more than, tops, a few thousand people in the galaxy who might try to cut me in half with a lightsaber. There are about a zillion people who might try to shoot me with a blaster.

I recall Lucas saying that Lightsabers were really heavy when they were doing the OT.

You can tell by the way Obi, Darth and Luke walk with a noticeably altered gait when those really heavy sabers are hanging from their belts, from the evident difficulty the decrepid old Emperor had while he was ponderously heaving Luke's saber back and forth in his hands while inspecting it, how Luke's oiled farmboy muscles bulged and glistened with sweat as he let loose a primal, strengthening growl while experimentally waving the saber Obi-wan gave him for the very first time in ANH, and from when Han had to grunt and strain and moan when he used one hand to make Luke's intestine-bed on Hoth.

...unless he's talking about the props themselves, rather than how they're supposed to be 'in-universe' as it were.

"Really heavy" could plausibly mean "four or five pounds," you know. Heavy enough that in a fight for your life there are arguments for a two-handed grip, but not heavy enough that a normal person would have trouble handling it. Except, possibly, for decrepit old emperors.

[Shroom Man 777]

It's like how Christopher Lee was telling Peter Jackson how people sound like when they're being stabbed to death, based on his experience in killing Nazis.

What a guy.

[mr friendly guy]

Another one that I like is the theory that the advanced lightsabers seen in the films actually have a 2d spinning singularity as the blade with the light coming off being some kind of hawking radiation. This gives them the gyroscope factor, and would likewise give the blade enough mass to warrant two handed styles.

How do they explain the fact that lightsabers are nullified by cortosis using this 2d spinning singularity business? I would be kind of interested in this as it sounds fascinating.

[mr friendly guy]

Another thought if lightsabers are really light, and the resistance to swings when the saber cuts through is based friction, then someone should adopt a Kevin J Anderson Light Lance. You guys remember when some Jedi Padawan put 3 crystals in his lightsaber and made it 3 times as long. You can either

a) use a double handle lightsaber so it has a longer hilt, and literally wield the weapon like a spear.
b) hold it perpendicular to the ground keeping the opponent just out of reach of a standard lightsaber (like a saber grip), and then before they move in extend the weapon. Lightsabers tend to "light up" pretty fast. Imagine in the fight between Palpatine and Mace, the two combatants were in a similar position before Windu moved in to engage.