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Elheru Aran wrote: ↑2019-10-09 03:24pmWhen the heck did the Empire of the Hand get bigger/more powerful than the Imperial Remnant?!

I don't think it's a matter of the Empire of the Hand getting bigger so much as the Remnant being so utterly pathetic that pretty much everyone worth mentioning was bigger and stronger than it. Eight sectors and a couple of hundred ISDs.

Captain Seafort wrote: ↑2019-10-09 03:46pm

Elheru Aran wrote: ↑2019-10-09 03:24pmWhen the heck did the Empire of the Hand get bigger/more powerful than the Imperial Remnant?!

I don't think it's a matter of the Empire of the Hand getting bigger so much as the Remnant being so utterly pathetic that pretty much everyone worth mentioning was bigger and stronger than it. Eight sectors and a couple of hundred ISDs.

Okay, the Remnant *getting* pathetic is one thing. If that's what NL is referring to, I get it. The way he wrote it though reads like the Empire of the Hand was bigger than the Remnant during the Thrawn era or something like that. If it really was only eight sectors and a couple of hundred ISD at that time, I don't buy it, Zahn minimalism be damned. It always seemed like the Republic was fighting the Remnant all the time, and that the Remnant was a semi-credible threat to the Republic until post-Daala.

Of course I'm thinking of like *all* the post-ROTJ Imperial forces here, and that includes Zsinj, Byss, and Daala. Combined with Thrawn's military... the Empire of the Hand would have had to be a Republic level power. So that's why I'm at first reading...

Catsitting at Mom's place so I don't have access to my books but IIRC the 8 sectors and couple hundred ISDs is as per the Hand of Thrawn duology

Batman wrote: ↑2019-10-09 04:13pm Catsitting at Mom's place so I don't have access to my books but IIRC the 8 sectors and couple hundred ISDs is as per the Hand of Thrawn duology

As noted, 8 sectors/200 ISDs at the SAME TIME as the Hand of Thrawn duo is reasonable. But I thought NL was saying that the Empire of the Hand was MORE powerful than the Remnant at the time of the Thrawn Trilogy or something for a second there.

As mentioned, I mean at the time it was introduced, not that it outgunned every imperial remnant at the time of Thrawn's first campaign (which given that Byss with all its super-big wedgeships was a thing is obviously incorrect). It would still have been more than enough to make him amongst the most powerful Imperial Warlords and certainly a creditable power player in his own right, and give him more than enough backing to enter talks to join the Galactic Republic.

Of course joining the New Republic himself with that Empire and actually using his formidable acumen to bring the likes of the Pentastar Alignment and other warlords to heel would have been far superior in terms of preparing the galaxy, but Thrawn is someone who really likes the idea of military hard-men.

Continuing to fight a largely pointless civil war while your enemy's invasion fleet approaches is probably the worst possible stratagem for building up readiness, but making peace and preparing for the larger war doesn't seem to be in Thrawn's playbook. Which is fine, he's meant to be a flawed character, but it does obviate defenses of his character on the grounds of the necessity of his actions.

NecronLord wrote: ↑2019-10-09 06:26pm As mentioned, I mean at the time it was introduced, not that it outgunned every imperial remnant at the time of Thrawn's first campaign (which given that Byss with all its super-big wedgeships was a thing is obviously incorrect). It would still have been more than enough to make him amongst the most powerful Imperial Warlords and certainly a creditable power player in his own right, and give him more than enough backing to enter talks to join the Galactic Republic.

Of course joining the New Republic himself with that Empire and actually using his formidable acumen to bring the likes of the Pentastar Alignment and other warlords to heel would have been far superior in terms of preparing the galaxy, but Thrawn is someone who really likes the idea of military hard-men.

Continuing to fight a largely pointless civil war while your enemy's invasion fleet approaches is probably the worst possible stratagem for building up readiness, but making peace and preparing for the larger war doesn't seem to be in Thrawn's playbook. Which is fine, he's meant to be a flawed character, but it does obviate defenses of his character on the grounds of the necessity of his actions.

As you noted, Thrawn's a flawed character AND (like you said) a very close adherent to the Führerprinzip. Hand of Thrawn duology characters wanked him out of all proportions, claiming that he had just as much political acumen as Palpatine and as much foresight in mundane matters (I must note that the source was biased as all hell, being one of Thrawn's own followers; their account of Palpatine's early associate, who introduced Thrawn to Palpatine, needing SEVERAL replacements in Palpatine's eyes rings hollow, as well). Obviously not. He didn't even figure out that a suspiciously large amount of resources had disappeared to Byss after the Emperor's first death. Maybe he really thought that the Imperials were so incompetent without him and the Emperor plus Vader at helm that they managed to wipe out a large portion of their Starfleet without any records surviving about their fate whatsoever.

As I said, Thrawn can be reasonable and "likeable" character. It just means that he is a monster with functioning brain cells and good table manners. Palpatine in PT is reasonable, downright likeable even; he's still the most evil man in the galaxy, traitor to his own government, a mass murderer and sadistic sorcerer with real magical powers which he uses to torture and kill people. People seem to confuse person's ability to act in an outwardly pleasant manner with that person's actual motivations, state of mind, and morality.

Tiriol wrote: ↑2019-10-10 01:46amHe didn't even figure out that a suspiciously large amount of resources had disappeared to Byss after the Emperor's first death. Maybe he really thought that the Imperials were so incompetent without him and the Emperor plus Vader at helm that they managed to wipe out a large portion of their Starfleet without any records surviving about their fate whatsoever.

To be fair, from what I recall (it's been a while) Isard managed to squander a decent portion of the Imperial military after Palpatine's death, pissing off many Generals/Admirals to the point that they either defected or went warlord like Zsinj. He snagged a decent chunk of the Imperial fleet including his own personal SSD and even one under construction. While the X-Wing Wraith Squadron books were lamentably minimalist (one special forces unit being a major threat to Zsinj?) they do show that he was considered a decent threat to the Republic after Isard was out of the picture and they had managed to take Coruscant.

So... I dunno. It really comes down to how much Thrawn actually knew about the Byss project. I'm rather interested in seeing what the new EU turns up regarding Thrawn, as they obviously can't reprise the Trilogy *too* much given how the Imperial Remnant apparently makes a quick peace with the Republic after the Battle of Jakku shortly after Endor.

Thrawn declared himself the new ruler of the Empire to a fucking Emperor's hand. (Mara Jade). "Have a care, Jade, I rule the Empire now."

At that point, he didn't give a shit about Palpatine, beyond a symbol/rallying point/resource/excuse.

I'm willing to bet, part of the reason that Emperor helped towards his downfall, was because he figured, if anyone could figure out a way to stop the Emperor once they knew what he was up to, it was Thrawn. Kind of evident with the whole 'using Yslamari to shield himself and troops from insane Jedi Master.' Imagine a Star Destroyer covered in those things, with a cloaking device on it, hyperjumping and slamming into Byss. The Emperor would be killed, and he'd never see it coming.

Just finished reading Treason. It seems...

Spoiler

I mean, in Legends wasn't it like 70/30 on "tactical brilliance" as opposed to other skills? Granted some of those were "technical brilliance" so that's still merit. IIRC only one of the Legends Grand Admirals seemed like a purely political appointee. But then it's been some time since I read their bios.

Still I think for this, Disney Canon is the way to go. As you said, why wouldn't this cadre of elite commanders have played more of a role? As I recall, most of the Legends GAs...really didn't go out or accomplish all that much against the Rebellion. They went rogue, killed each other, died at Endor (despite no indication there was anyone more senior than Piett per the movie, but whatever) and in one case managed to retire peacefully.

Of the group, only Thrawn himself seemed worth a damn as regards the GCW.

Also noted:

Twelve hundred kilometers was far beyond the turbolasers’ normal combat range, at least for something carrying any decent armor.

Does that sound about right?