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It's not like people haven't always written a few bad guys as antiheroes or trying really, really hard to make the reader like them... pretty sure it's been the case in Wars since we saw Darth Vader striding through the Tantive IV's hallway. It's a pretty common trope in large universes. How many people got a kick out of Weyoun and Damar in DS9, never mind that Damar governed a genocidal regime and Weyoun is the representative of a whole faction that wants to conquer the Alpha Quadrant?

Rogue 9 wrote: ↑2019-06-26 11:07pm

Solauren wrote: ↑2019-06-26 10:38pm It was retroactively established that Thrawns people knew about the Vong due to the Vong's probing, and that was part of the reason he got himself exiled to join the Empire. The Emperor promised to protect Thrawns people in exchange for his service, and intelligence about the Vong.

Not only is that silly (he didn't deign to tell anyone else?), but Disney Thrawn doesn't have that excuse.

It's possible EU Thrawn DID have that data ready for release, along with his backup clone, before Luke and Mara blew it up.

And while trying to rebuild the Empire, going 'oh by the way, incoming Extra-Galactic invasion' could hurt his credibility.
Come to think of it, the same with the Emperor. It kind of makes him look paranoid, and could be used against him "See, he's going senile! It's a lie!".

Disney Thrawn - Haven't seen him in Rebels yet (not really interested), so no idea.

Elheru Aran wrote: ↑2019-06-27 06:11pm It's not like people haven't always written a few bad guys as antiheroes or trying really, really hard to make the reader like them... pretty sure it's been the case in Wars since we saw Darth Vader striding through the Tantive IV's hallway. It's a pretty common trope in large universes. How many people got a kick out of Weyoun and Damar in DS9, never mind that Damar governed a genocidal regime and Weyoun is the representative of a whole faction that wants to conquer the Alpha Quadrant?

Weirdly, this seems to be a constant with Star Wars. Thrawn fights for a monstrous regime, but it's justifiable because reasons (Vong, Chiss protection, etc). The Stormtroopers killed the Jedi, but it's okay because of wacky brain chips.

Weyoun, Dukat, and Vader are fun to watch as monsters, but the show/OT sure as hell don't offer excuses for them.

Crazedwraith wrote: ↑2019-06-26 05:24pm
To state the obvious; describing Thrawn as a 'likeable nazi' is both accurate and I infer meant to get a rise out of people and wag a finger at them for liking a character who props up a despicable regime.

Certainly gave me that impression. Speaking as someone with rather little familiarity with Thrawn's recent depictions and adventures, what has been done to render him likable? Or Rommelesque, for that matter?

MarxII wrote: ↑2019-06-27 11:31pm

Crazedwraith wrote: ↑2019-06-26 05:24pm
To state the obvious; describing Thrawn as a 'likeable nazi' is both accurate and I infer meant to get a rise out of people and wag a finger at them for liking a character who props up a despicable regime.

Certainly gave me that impression. Speaking as someone with rather little familiarity with Thrawn's recent depictions and adventures, what has been done to render him likable? Or Rommelesque, for that matter?

Rebels actually didn't much, at least from what I've seen. He was played as a straight villain in Rebels, albeit a more intelligent one than most.

I haven't read the new Thrawn books, so I'm going on second-hand information. The original Thrawn Trilogy did make him out to be both smarter and a better leader to his men than other Imperials like Vader, although he still exhibits, albeit more subtly, the same underlying arrogance (which ultimately is his undoing).

There's a lot of Thrawn wank in the fandom (I'll admit I've probably been guilty of it myself on occasion), but that can't be held against the official content.

Gandalf wrote: ↑2019-06-27 09:27pm

Elheru Aran wrote: ↑2019-06-27 06:11pm It's not like people haven't always written a few bad guys as antiheroes or trying really, really hard to make the reader like them... pretty sure it's been the case in Wars since we saw Darth Vader striding through the Tantive IV's hallway. It's a pretty common trope in large universes. How many people got a kick out of Weyoun and Damar in DS9, never mind that Damar governed a genocidal regime and Weyoun is the representative of a whole faction that wants to conquer the Alpha Quadrant?

Weirdly, this seems to be a constant with Star Wars. Thrawn fights for a monstrous regime, but it's justifiable because reasons (Vong, Chiss protection, etc). The Stormtroopers killed the Jedi, but it's okay because of wacky brain chips.

Weyoun, Dukat, and Vader are fun to watch as monsters, but the show/OT sure as hell don't offer excuses for them.

Indeed. I never felt Damar was shown to be a "good guy" anytime. It was only shown that the Cardassians perceived him as good. He was a necessary evil the UFP needed to help defeat the Dominion. The closest Damar got was when he had an epiphany that maybe murdering civilians was wrong. This was after he mentioned that the Dominion killed his family and he went on a spiel about "who kills civilians," right in front of Kira without a shred of self awareness. Then Kira replies "yeah Damar, who kills civilians." That was good writing, because he encapsulates how people see the faults in others, but miss it in themselves.

mr friendly guy wrote: ↑2019-06-28 09:39pm

Gandalf wrote: ↑2019-06-27 09:27pm

Elheru Aran wrote: ↑2019-06-27 06:11pm It's not like people haven't always written a few bad guys as antiheroes or trying really, really hard to make the reader like them... pretty sure it's been the case in Wars since we saw Darth Vader striding through the Tantive IV's hallway. It's a pretty common trope in large universes. How many people got a kick out of Weyoun and Damar in DS9, never mind that Damar governed a genocidal regime and Weyoun is the representative of a whole faction that wants to conquer the Alpha Quadrant?

Weirdly, this seems to be a constant with Star Wars. Thrawn fights for a monstrous regime, but it's justifiable because reasons (Vong, Chiss protection, etc). The Stormtroopers killed the Jedi, but it's okay because of wacky brain chips.

Weyoun, Dukat, and Vader are fun to watch as monsters, but the show/OT sure as hell don't offer excuses for them.

Indeed. I never felt Damar was shown to be a "good guy" anytime. It was only shown that the Cardassians perceived him as good. He was a necessary evil the UFP needed to help defeat the Dominion. The closest Damar got was when he had an epiphany that maybe murdering civilians was wrong. This was after he mentioned that the Dominion killed his family and he went on a spiel about "who kills civilians," right in front of Kira without a shred of self awareness. Then Kira replies "yeah Damar, who kills civilians." That was good writing, because he encapsulates how people see the faults in others, but miss it in themselves.

Yeah, Damar was well-written, but the show never made excuses for or glamorized his crimes, that I can recall.

I never saw Thrawn as a 'likeably Nazi'.

If anything, I'd call him a 'CULTURED' Nazi, and maybe 'OPEN-MINDED' Nazi. But 'likeable?'

The only likeable Nazies are the ones going 'Are.. are we the baddies?'

*By Open minded - He's open to new ideas, so long as they further his/the Empire's goals.

It wouldn't be Star Wars if the villains weren't cooler than the heroes, who have always been somewhat dorky (except for Han Solo, pre-Disney). This isn't unique to Star Wars either: most of my friends and co-workers prefer Loki to Thor by a wide margin (though among females it's closer, apparently depending on whether Chris Hemsworth has his shirt off or not). The really funny case is Fu Manchu who, in spite of being the arch-villain created by a racist crackpot novelist out to warn against the "Yellow Peril", is so well known and well-liked that very few people can even remember the name of the "hero" in Fu Manchu novels or movies. Coolness has a way of winning out and while Thrawn is a second-rate villain by Star Wars standards, he's still more interesting than most.

Well, as someone who's favorite Star Wars character is Luke Skywalker, I must disagree, though I recognize I may be in the minority opinion. Still, I'd like to see a good poll of who peoples' favorite Star Wars (or Marvel, or whatever) characters are, and see whether villains are really more popular.

I believe the reason for that, Gandalf, is the same reason why every single German on trial at Nuremberg was not executed; why every single Wehrmacht soldier, Waffen-SS trooper, Allgemeine-SS stooge, etc weren't executed for crimes against humanity. It was determined by deed, if not in word, that there are shades of evil. Was a soldier who fought against France, England, and the United States in North Africa and never as part of the SS (or committed a war crime) as guilty as a member of the SS death squads that roamed behind German lines in the Barbarossa campaign? Both served Germany, the Reich, and swore oaths of loyalty to Adolf Hitler.

Throughout the newest Thrawn series I see places where Zahn has thrown in decision points, times when new information comes available to the characters, about the Empire. The series starts off with the time period shortly after the end of the clone wars, when the transition from Galactic Republic to Galactic Empire is still happening. Those changes and the idea of what it means to serve a government loyally, even when that government which was suppose to replace the corruption and decadence of the old begins to show it's own corruption.

Thrawn tries to find ways to justify things, at least to his own satisfaction, so that he might continue to serve the Empire in it's effort to combat what he perceives as the greater threats. There is also the fact that true tyranny as described by the Rebel Alliance was not all-encompassing. He would discover various injustices and ones that are no less horrible for either their rarity or uniqueness, but the "bigger picture," as he saw it, was the priority. It is one of his key attributes as a character: allocation of priorities. To his logical mind the priority of maintaining order and the creation of a strong, mobile military was key to combating the "horrors" both within the Unknown Regions and beyond the borders of the known galaxy.

"I encounter civilians like you all the time. You believe the Empire is continually plotting to do harm. Let me tell you, your view of the Empire is far too dramatic. The Empire is a government. It keeps billions of beings fed and clothed. Day after day, year after year, on thousands of worlds people live their lives under Imperial rule without ever seeing a stormtrooper or hearing a TIE fighter scream overhead."
- Captain Thrawn
"Galaxy of Fear: The Swarm"

"Multiple species, with multiple viewpoints and racial philosophies, simply cannot hold power together for long. The dominant voice must certainly be wise enough to adopt ideas and methods from its allies and member peoples. But there must be a dominant voice, or there is only chaos. In this part of the galaxy, that voice is the Empire."
- Thrawn
"Choices of One"

Does this make him therefore worse than the men and women who order that atrocities take place or who carry said atrocities out? He is not without guilt, but neither is he as guilty as others. I'm not sure. I cannot be the judge. It simply raises interesting moral dilemmas and questions, to me at least.

For those that desire to look into what I mean in clearer detail (I'm not always good at describing it) here is a link about the Nuremberg Trials.

So he's a monster with the ability to justify things? Goodo.

It's like those guys who laud the SS for "defending Europe from Bolshevism."

Gandalf wrote: ↑2019-09-30 05:17pm So he's a monster with the ability to justify things? Goodo.

It's like those guys who laud the SS for "defending Europe from Bolshevism."

Not sure if he's a monster, but he's good at ignoring them.

And no, it's not the same at all really. Also, fuck those guys and any allusion you might have been making to comparing them to me.

Willful ignorance is no excuse when you're a senior officer in the military doing those things. He fought for a regime he knew was doing horrible things, and (best case scenario) willingly turned a blind eye to more atrocities happening. Fuck Thrawn.

Gandalf wrote: ↑2019-09-30 05:17pm So he's a monster with the ability to justify things? Goodo.

It's like those guys who laud the SS for "defending Europe from Bolshevism."

I haven't been on your side, but this simile does make me pause to consider. I would say, perhaps, that it is more similar to those who laud the USSR for defending Europe from Nazism. I would say the Vong are the greater evil, not the Empire.

KraytKing wrote: ↑2019-10-01 10:59pm

Gandalf wrote: ↑2019-09-30 05:17pm So he's a monster with the ability to justify things? Goodo.

It's like those guys who laud the SS for "defending Europe from Bolshevism."

I haven't been on your side, but this simile does make me pause to consider. I would say, perhaps, that it is more similar to those who laud the USSR for defending Europe from Nazism. I would say the Vong are the greater evil, not the Empire.

Except that once the NR got their shit in order and became the GA they started doing real damage. The empire's methods weren't even remotely necessary and it sure as shit doesn't excuse all the other atrocities they committed.

Darth Yan wrote: ↑2019-10-01 11:05pm

KraytKing wrote: ↑2019-10-01 10:59pm

Gandalf wrote: ↑2019-09-30 05:17pm So he's a monster with the ability to justify things? Goodo.

It's like those guys who laud the SS for "defending Europe from Bolshevism."

I haven't been on your side, but this simile does make me pause to consider. I would say, perhaps, that it is more similar to those who laud the USSR for defending Europe from Nazism. I would say the Vong are the greater evil, not the Empire.

Except that once the NR got their shit in order and became the GA they started doing real damage. The empire's methods weren't even remotely necessary and it sure as shit doesn't excuse all the other atrocities they committed.

The process of getting their shit together cost them half the galaxy. The process of the United States conquering Europe without the USSR might have been comparable.

And that’s a piss poor analogy since a democratic government could have beaten the vong. Had better choices been made the vong would have been stopped regardless

The GR swung back against the Vong thanks to Jedi Plot Armor, more than anything. There isn't a very good real world equivalent to it. There is no question in my mind though that the Empire would have managed to survive and fighter back better and stronger. That is simply a fact of them being a militaristic society. The GR (which became the GA) had to turn itself into one (and develop super weapons, such as the Alpha Red bio weapon) in order to successfully come back from the brink. Not to mention that our band of heroes employed bribery in order to win the mid-war election within the GR and thus allow Cal Omas to be elected. The path to hell is paved with good intentions, as the saying goes.

Darth Yan wrote: ↑2019-10-02 12:09am And that’s a piss poor analogy since a democratic government could have beaten the vong. Had better choices been made the vong would have been stopped regardless

That is true, but the New Republic was never going to make those choices. What was needed to defeat the Vong was militarism and superweapons. The New Republic had just fought down a repressive society championing both of those. The galaxy was not in a mood for more war, for more government spending on seemingly useless death machines. And so Thrawn had to build his Empire.

KraytKing wrote: ↑2019-10-02 01:06pmThat is true, but the New Republic was never going to make those choices. What was needed to defeat the Vong was militarism and superweapons. The New Republic had just fought down a repressive society championing both of those. The galaxy was not in a mood for more war, for more government spending on seemingly useless death machines. And so Thrawn had to build his Empire.

Militarism and superweapons and the general form of government Thrawn endorsed was part of what sparked the rebellion that ultimately killed the Empire. You say the New Republic had all sorts of inherent structural weaknesses and a leadership model that made it hard to make the hard choices it would have taken to nip the Vong threat in the bud? The Empire had a whole other set of problems that the Vong would have exploited just as hard, and they would have found it a whole lot easier to get parts of it to actively fight against the Empire on their behalf.

Because, you know. That happened anyway. Now imagine the Rebel Alliance with an extra-galactic Mongol horde to tag-team with.

In other news: Zahn is apparently going to write a trilogy of Thrawn prequels, dealing with his life before leaving the Chiss Ascendancy.

I guess he's found what's he's good at, at least...

Solauren wrote: ↑2019-06-28 11:29pm I never saw Thrawn as a 'likeably Nazi'.

If anything, I'd call him a 'CULTURED' Nazi, and maybe 'OPEN-MINDED' Nazi. But 'likeable?'

The only likeable Nazies are the ones going 'Are.. are we the baddies?'

*By Open minded - He's open to new ideas, so long as they further his/the Empire's goals.

Just skimmed this thread. And yeah, this is the gist of it for me, as well. Thrawn was NEVER likeable in the same way as, say, General Hammond from SG-1 or General Franklin and Captain Lochley from B5. Thrawn was cultured, intelligent, nuanced, and wasn't a) raving mad, b) going around blowing up planets as blackmailing tool, or c) devoted to a demonic energy source that drives people to do first two options. When compared to Tarkin, Vader and the Emperor, he is likeable... but the Thrawn Trilogy hammered it home that he was still, for all intents and purposes, a Nazi. More reasonable and cultured than your average EU Imperial officer (the original films were in general rather silent about personal qualities of Imperial officers, apart from Tarkin being willing to wipe out billions of sentient lifeforms in a second and Ozzel being a moron; EU in comparison was full of insane, stupid, malicious AND stupid, or malicious AND destructive (often stupid and insane as well) Imperials), but he had still wiped out species, was willing to brainwash his own followers, bombard civilian targets, and kidnap children. The Disney EU follows similar pattern, except this time Thrawn is just a bit a) less insanely gifted in all areas of expertise, including diplomacy and politics, and b) more obviously callous.

Depicting (fictional Space) Nazis as simply monsters without any shred of humanity or reasoning is stupid. Even Tarkin clearly had reasons for the single greatest instance of mass murder (until the Sequel Trilogy wanted to be totally radical with the First Order's Starkiller Base) in the history of Star Wars setting apart from "I'm evil, cacklecacklecackle". It's much more compelling storytelling AND in general makes you think about what humans are actually capable of in terms of monstrous deeds and how they justify it - and how to avoid it.

It seems, though, that most people are just not that good at learning and comprehending stuff, judging by our history and current news. I still remember how may laughed at RotS's line of "So this is how liberty dies". Lucas had the last, bitter, mirthless laugh at our (or, at least, at US citizens') expense.

The Coda to all this apologetics for Thrawn's desire to impose dictatorship on the galaxy based on the looming threat of the Vong is that in the EU timeline where the Vong existed, the Emperor would, had Thrawn been successful, simply consumed the galaxy before the Vong actually arrived. Certainly the Vong would have been defeated, by the Emperor's Dark Side Elite and their cavalcade of automated superweapons, not by the poor unfortunates devoured to power such a thing, in whose interests Thrawn did not fight.

Of course, Thrawn knew nothing of Byss, and was not permitted by the Clone Emperor, who had a hand in leaking information to Rukh about the Honoghr incident, in order to ensure Thrawn could not stop his ascension.

This of course, is cringe, but then so is the entire Vong arc.

It also indicates the weakness of Thrawn's belief in the Führerprinzip concept of governance by one voice. Thrawn had no idea about the low regard his Führer held is ideals in, and his blind faith in dictatorship made his life, in the end, a tool in the hands of a man who wanted to consume the galaxy.

A far superior alternative to what Thrawn actually did would be to return to the Galactic Republic with his supposedly extensive evidence he had of the Vong, and disclose his Empire of the Hand, which of course, outgunned the Imperial Remnant but was never fully followed up on in the EU's history, and actually used diplomacy. But of course he had a strong personal preference for Führerprinzip, and fancied himself a strong personal saviour for the galaxy.

Certainly a Galactic Republic that had credible warning of an exgal invasion would be able to say, keep the Sun Crusher in a vault, and seek to copy the World Devastators and Galaxy Gun. The Sun Crusher notably was (attempted to be) destroyed because of the threat that it posed to peace, not a course of action that would be pursued if the Republic had the information that convinced Thrawn to overlook all those warcrimes in hand. Even the New Republic could total the worldships with that thing.


As to the threats that Thrawn talks about in the Disney canon, we have no information to judge how real this threat is.

NecronLord wrote: ↑2019-10-09 01:41pm A far superior alternative to what Thrawn actually did would be to return to the Galactic Republic with his supposedly extensive evidence he had of the Vong, and disclose his Empire of the Hand, which of course, outgunned the Imperial Remnant but was never fully followed up on in the EU's history, and actually used diplomacy. But of course he had a strong personal preference for Führerprinzip, and fancied himself a strong personal saviour for the galaxy.

(Emphasis added)

What.

Okay, so I dropped out of the EU around roughly... 1998ish, read some prequel stuff, bought a few novels and such, but never read much of the Yuuzhan Vong stuff at all, and my collection ended with the Hand of Thrawn duo.

When the heck did the Empire of the Hand get bigger/more powerful than the Imperial Remnant?!