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The Romulan Republic wrote: ↑2019-05-10 05:05am For Dooku, Christopher Lee was a fencer and did as much of his fight scenes as possible, so that might have something to do with it.

Pretty sure he had nothing to do with it. Just his head pasted over a stuntman.

Well, I'm going off Wikipedia, so it might be bullshit, but apparently he did some of it, and a body-double did the more physically rigorous bits.

The Romulan Republic wrote: ↑2019-05-10 05:05am For Dooku, Christopher Lee was a fencer and did as much of his fight scenes as possible, so that might have something to do with it.

I think you mean Form II: Makashi.

Probably my favorite form, actually- whenever I create a Jedi character they tend to be a practitioner of it.

The Romulan Republic wrote: ↑2019-05-10 05:09am Well, I'm going off Wikipedia, so it might be bullshit, but apparently he did some of it, and a body-double did the more physically rigorous bits.

It was less about it being too rigorous and more about him not being able to get the foot work right (or at least not fast enough). Christopher Lee said as much in the documentaries in the AOTC DvD, that said even the stun double would try to get it as close to what the actor's style was if the actor did any parts of the fight, it's what stunt people do with fight scenes.

EDIT:IIRC most close ups were Lee while mid and full body shots were the stun man with Lee's head.

Shroom Man 777 wrote: ↑2019-05-10 04:53am So there you have it, the fights -were- done by pros who've choreographed swordfights - by done I mean they guided the actors (like how the Bourne franchise's fights are "done" by Jeff Imada and his people. In the case of ESB and ROTJ they got someone who was incredible, Bob Anderson. The development of the swordfighting style in ESB and ROTJ matches the practical and special effects development of the lightsaber too, since IIRC earlier on they thought the mechanics of wielding the lightsaber was more cumbersome (wasn't the saber hilt initially conceptualized to be this heavy whirring thing, though eventually the idea evolved into the swishy easy to swing thing in the prequels).

I think there was meant to be a bit of kendo influence on the OT fights, but the choreography itself is boring even if it is done by an actual swordmaster.

ray245 wrote: ↑2019-05-09 06:10pm In ANH Kenobi was just stalling for time so I don't really think he should be doing super badasss moves. Kind of like how Gandalf holding off the Balrog was more magical and epic and memorable than the Hobbit's magical tag team match of Saruman, Galadriel and Elrond in Gol-Dulgur.

It' the pacing of the fight that bores me. You can stall for time even if the pacing of the fight is sped up. Maybe I'm just used to too many martial arts movie where old masters can be just as quick as a younger swordmaster.

IMO the ESB and ROTJ fight scenes were riveting and weren't impractical. As a weapon art practitioner they make me happy. The meatiness of TFA and TLJ's fight scenes are reminiscent of that and also work for me, particularly gut-shot Kylo vs. pissed Rey.

I find that they lack the dynamism of a staged fight. I'm used to wushu performances or Chinese opera troupes performing duels on stage at a rapid pace, and by the OT and ST fights by comparison, is just too slow for me.

This is the kind of performance I grew up watching and learn to love.



Anything that's more "realistic" or slower than that is just boring to me.

The choreo of the prequels shouldn't be discredited. Maul was great. The way they did Dooku was also great. I think the films just belabored it, ala ROTS, and the psychology wasn't as solid. Lucas was so into Jedi cool badasss that it was de-mystified. Like if LOTR fans were indulged so we could see awesome cool badassssss Gandalf, and we get scenes where he spell-spams like in some MMORPG, Harry Potter films, or like in other weaker-ass wannabe-epic fantasy books.

I love the cool badass Jedi in the prequels. The ROTS fights were some of my favourites because it has a very nice flow and pacing to their fights. I love the ridiculous nature of it just like how I love the animated fights in the Clone Wars and in the Old Republic trailers.

I mean they are space wizards super monks using lightsticks to duel each other. I wholeheartedly embrace the cool badass Jedi because it's not meant to be realistic, and it's a great fun to watch.

With the prequel style fights, I can enjoy watching them on their own, with fans putting up this kind of performance on the stage.



This kind of fights are great fun to watch, but a fight on a stage with the OT style duel, or the ST style duels will not interest me at all.

I mean the strength of the OT fights doesn't come from the action, its the emotional resonance of it. In ROTJ when Luke comes tearing out of the dark to protect Leia and just goes completely apeshit on Vader, the action is goofy as hell - it looks like Luke is just beating Vader with a baseball bat. But it works because they built up the emotional power of the scene before hand, with tight shots on Luke's face so you know the stress he is under.

It's like how the T-Rex scene in Jurassic Park is still way better than any of the scenes in the new movies. Because what makes that scene work isn't the special effects, it is that Spielberg builds the fear and tension for like 10 minutes before Rexy steps out into the road and roars, so you feel the panic and danger in your bones, rather than your eyes seeing "hey, big predator"


Also, hats off to Luke, we all have to spend years in weekly therapy to get the kind of daddy issues catharsis he got by beating the hell out of his old man for 3 minutes

Ender wrote: ↑2019-05-10 10:20pm I mean the strength of the OT fights doesn't come from the action, its the emotional resonance of it. In ROTJ when Luke comes tearing out of the dark to protect Leia and just goes completely apeshit on Vader, the action is goofy as hell - it looks like Luke is just beating Vader with a baseball bat. But it works because they built up the emotional power of the scene before hand, with tight shots on Luke's face so you know the stress he is under.

It's like how the T-Rex scene in Jurassic Park is still way better than any of the scenes in the new movies. Because what makes that scene work isn't the special effects, it is that Spielberg builds the fear and tension for like 10 minutes before Rexy steps out into the road and roars, so you feel the panic and danger in your bones, rather than your eyes seeing "hey, big predator"

Also, hats off to Luke, we all have to spend years in weekly therapy to get the kind of daddy issues catharsis he got by beating the hell out of his old man for 3 minutes

The problem is when people who conflates the emotional core with the action style itself. Luke vs Vader will still work even if they adopt a "cooler" prequel style duel. If anything, I think it can further elevates the scene if the action is cooler and more fun to watch.

You are wrong. Overly choreographed dance fighting does not convey the same raw emotion. And the longer the fight, the more diluted the emotional impact. The fighting style of the prequels is not something to be lauded and imitated.

Also, the seemingly positive response to this on Youtube from ST bashers tells me that the "Prequels/Disney ruined Star Wars" OT fanboys are often complete hypocrites, and at the end of the day, its not changes to the OT they care about, or flashy effects over substance, or character and story- mostly, they just want superficially "bad ass" scenes to fap over (as long as its only men who get to be bad asses, at least).

The Romulan Republic wrote: ↑2019-05-12 01:34am Also, the seemingly positive response to this on Youtube from ST bashers tells me that the "Prequels/Disney ruined Star Wars" OT fanboys are often complete hypocrites, and at the end of the day, its not changes to the OT they care about, or flashy effects over substance, or character and story- mostly, they just want superficially "bad ass" scenes to fap over (as long as its only men who get to be bad asses, at least).

They want "badass" scenes to evoke nostalgia. It's funny that practically no one complains about flashy fight scenes in almost every other Hollywood blockbusters, but the prequel fight scenes provoke the most reaction from people, especially those OT fanboys?

The prequels feels very different from the OT, because it is not trying to be the OT. The prequels have flaws, but I think the reason some of those fans latched onto the flaws is because they felt taken out of the movie.

Bob the Gunslinger wrote: ↑2019-05-11 11:38pm You are wrong. Overly choreographed dance fighting does not convey the same raw emotion. And the longer the fight, the more diluted the emotional impact. The fighting style of the prequels is not something to be lauded and imitated.

Well it clearly did for me. There's nothing "right" or "wrong" about people's personal preferences.

The Romulan Republic wrote: ↑2019-05-12 01:34am Also, the seemingly positive response to this on Youtube from ST bashers tells me that the "Prequels/Disney ruined Star Wars" OT fanboys are often complete hypocrites, and at the end of the day, its not changes to the OT they care about, or flashy effects over substance, or character and story- mostly, they just want superficially "bad ass" scenes to fap over (as long as its only men who get to be bad asses, at least).

Firstly, youtube commenters are going to be a smaller and self selected sample than the movie audience. Second, an action sequence with almost no dialogue, and with zero new dialogue, is an apples to oranges comparison with a film or of anything that involves story.

You aren't making the point you think you are making here

ray245 wrote: ↑2019-05-12 07:40am The prequels feels very different from the OT, because it is not trying to be the OT. The prequels have flaws, but I think the reason some of those fans latched onto the flaws is because they felt taken out of the movie.

Also because it basically became a meme right at the start of YouTube movie talk motenization so everyone trying to get cash latched on to the style. It's akin to how you had a chunk of the aughts bloggers all copying that Jezebel style guide, the early big Twitter accounts all doing that thing of "if I put together 'epic' plus two separate swears it is a super burn" and now all do that "buckle up" thing, or how many podcasts follow the model of 1 free 1 subscribers a week after a few made it big with that tempo.

The prequels are bad overall, but you can see the skeleton of a good story and character arcs in there, and the visual elements are great (ironically perhaps best in the worst of them, attack of the clones). But the parts that make them bad most people can't break out if they were present in another film, and the ones that can would only due so in the tvtropes context rather than actual film analysis.

Yeah, while it was cool, it just reeked of Battlefront II type video game stuff. They could redo the fight a little, but if they did, I think it should be more Master on Master type stuff like Rebels did with Obi Wan and Maul. Not a repeat of Obi Wan and Anakin in RotS. Both are older, wiser, and more broken.

The Romulan Republic wrote: ↑2019-05-12 01:34am Also, the seemingly positive response to this on Youtube from ST bashers tells me that the "Prequels/Disney ruined Star Wars" OT fanboys are often complete hypocrites, and at the end of the day, its not changes to the OT they care about, or flashy effects over substance, or character and story- mostly, they just want superficially "bad ass" scenes to fap over (as long as its only men who get to be bad asses, at least).

I hate this generalization. The sequels were bad movies, as were the prequels and ROTJ. This is a bad fight scene. Bash those people you speak of all you like, they're worse than defenders of the sequels. But leave the generalization out of it, and don't use it as a way to defend your view.

Ender wrote: ↑2019-05-12 10:11am Also because it basically became a meme right at the start of YouTube movie talk motenization so everyone trying to get cash latched on to the style. It's akin to how you had a chunk of the aughts bloggers all copying that Jezebel style guide, the early big Twitter accounts all doing that thing of "if I put together 'epic' plus two separate swears it is a super burn" and now all do that "buckle up" thing, or how many podcasts follow the model of 1 free 1 subscribers a week after a few made it big with that tempo.

The prequels are bad overall, but you can see the skeleton of a good story and character arcs in there, and the visual elements are great (ironically perhaps best in the worst of them, attack of the clones). But the parts that make them bad most people can't break out if they were present in another film, and the ones that can would only due so in the tvtropes context rather than actual film analysis.

The standards which many "fans" used to judge a film can be quite ridiculous, and I think the same is happening with the ST. There are flaws with the ST, but I think the fans once again focus on the wrong reasons for explaining why they feel the film didn't work for them.

You have a right to feel a film doesn't work for you, but that does not mean you are able to articulate why it made you feel bad in certain way. Film is an emotive medium, in which there is no specific answers to why you like or dislike a film. You can break things down as much as you want, but sometimes it is only going to create misleading "answers" to your question.

Wow that was just painful to watch. Gives me nightmares of the horrible Final Fantasy Advent Children bull crap. Three camera cuts per move doesn't make something good. (Top of the head, armpit, kneecap, sword swipe, repeat.) I'll take the "boring" fight that I can actually see what is happening because the camera shot stays in a logical place to view the action, every time.

Obi-Wan vs Darth Maul from Star Wars Rebels nailed it. SPOILERS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=no4SxdIIDBE

ray245 wrote: ↑2019-05-10 07:11amThis is the kind of performance I grew up watching and learn to love.



Anything that's more "realistic" or slower than that is just boring to me.

That demonstration might be a clinic on choreographed fighting, but as somebody who enjoys watching the odd UFC match or HEMA duel, it looked so laughably unrealistic that I checked out during the first 'fight'. It was Flynning writ large, nobody was throwing a cut that was aimed at a body, and there was no story being told.

Not to shit on your tastes, but Star Wars with fights like that would be awful for most audiences to sit through. It would be like making the next Star Wars movie a Bollywood style musical, it would appeal to a certain audience but wouldn't be true to Star Wars.

This is the same difference between Stone Cold style pro-wrestling where he just flips people off and hurls punches and stomps a mudhole in 'em and then STUNNER BAH GAWD STUNNER, or Hulk Hogan and Macho Man-esque wrestling, where it's charisma and ring psychology... versus lucha, Rey Mysterio, or hyper-technical Daniel Bryan modern stuff, or the likes of Chris Beno-[REDACTED].

I think even in terms of wushu, the Prequels need some work... like they could exchange some haiku or other philosophical mullings before floating around the reeds and bamboos.

And even the wushu demonstrations and Crouching Tiger-style martial arts films are only one school in Asia. As you noticed, there seems to be some kendo in the OT and that may be because Lucas was also drawing from samurai flicks like those of Kurosawa and their choreography is different and less prolonged-dramatic-flippy-swishy compared to the Chinese acrobatic style.

SW: Rebels' Kenobi vs. Maul was perfect in showing the stylistic differences between the conservative OT and the flashy PT, both in conveying their development as characters wherein Kenobi grew whereas Maul was stuck with his grudge and even used the same move he pulled on Qui-Gon, and it ended like a Kurosawa samurai duel.

Jub wrote: ↑2019-05-15 12:21am

ray245 wrote: ↑2019-05-10 07:11amThis is the kind of performance I grew up watching and learn to love.



Anything that's more "realistic" or slower than that is just boring to me.

That demonstration might be a clinic on choreographed fighting, but as somebody who enjoys watching the odd UFC match or HEMA duel, it looked so laughably unrealistic that I checked out during the first 'fight'. It was Flynning writ large, nobody was throwing a cut that was aimed at a body, and there was no story being told.

Not to shit on your tastes, but Star Wars with fights like that would be awful for most audiences to sit through. It would be like making the next Star Wars movie a Bollywood style musical, it would appeal to a certain audience but wouldn't be true to Star Wars.

Why won't it be true to Star Wars? If you are going to define the OT as true Star Wars, then nothing else can ever be true SW. I grew up with the prequels fights so they are just as true to SW as the OT. I know you aren't trying to shit on me, but it feels like the way you approach SW might feel slightly culturally biased?

Like confine Indian style dance to Bollywood movies , or confine Chinese wushu to Chinese movies.

If George Lucas have no problem with wushu in Star Wars, then I think it is as true to SW as it can be. It's his vision, even if he change it all the time.

Shroom Man 777 wrote: ↑2019-05-15 01:43am This is the same difference between Stone Cold style pro-wrestling where he just flips people off and hurls punches and stomps a mudhole in 'em and then STUNNER BAH GAWD STUNNER, or Hulk Hogan and Macho Man-esque wrestling, where it's charisma and ring psychology... versus lucha, Rey Mysterio, or hyper-technical Daniel Bryan modern stuff, or the likes of Chris Beno-[REDACTED].

I think even in terms of wushu, the Prequels need some work... like they could exchange some haiku or other philosophical mullings before floating around the reeds and bamboos.

And even the wushu demonstrations and Crouching Tiger-style martial arts films are only one school in Asia. As you noticed, there seems to be some kendo in the OT and that may be because Lucas was also drawing from samurai flicks like those of Kurosawa and their choreography is different and less prolonged-dramatic-flippy-swishy compared to the Chinese acrobatic style.

SW: Rebels' Kenobi vs. Maul was perfect in showing the stylistic differences between the conservative OT and the flashy PT, both in conveying their development as characters wherein Kenobi grew whereas Maul was stuck with his grudge and even used the same move he pulled on Qui-Gon, and it ended like a Kurosawa samurai duel.

Lucas changed his style because his main philosophy when it comes to making SW movies tends to be about making things faster and more intense.

There's nothing wrong with a Kurosawa style duel, but I think it's far too grounded in realism compares to wushu style duel. Jedi are basically more akin to Wuxia heroes because they can jump and fly around and shit.

You might not like them, but I feel that your preference is more specific than most average movie goers. The prequels fights was enjoyable enough to many people, with the fight in Ep I always being mentioned as enjoyable even by many people who disliked the prequels.

The prequel style fights are flashy, but I feel many of the complaints about them are more based in OT nostalgia and fanboyism. You can prefer the OT fights, but I think people need to accept the primary reasons being they've seen the OT first and the OT left a much bigger impression on them. If people saw the prequels first, then they tend to be less nostalgic about the whole OT style duel is better kind of mindset.

ray245 wrote: ↑2019-05-15 04:57amWhy won't it be true to Star Wars? If you are going to define the OT as true Star Wars, then nothing else can ever be true SW.

I'm not that narrow-minded to say only the OT but at the same time, aside from IMHO Rogue One, everything post-RotJ has been a serious decline in quality and critical reception. The PT had the same problems as the OT but made worse by the lack of anybody forcing Goerge to go back and take a second pass over the rough bits. The new stuff has the trappings, and not even all of them, but feels like it lacks the soul of even the prequel movies.

I grew up with the prequels fights so they are just as true to SW as the OT. I know you aren't trying to shit on me, but it feels like the way you approach SW might feel slightly culturally biased?

I technically did too, TPM came out when I was 11, but I'd seen the OT first. Even as a kid there was just something off about that movie, then I was older for the next two and could see their flaws a bit more critically.

Like confine Indian style dance to Bollywood movies , or confine Chinese wushu to Chinese movies.

I couldn't sit through a rambling three-hour mess with multiple song and dance numbers no matter how much Star Wars they added to it, I have a feeling most audiences around the world would find such a similarly difficult sit. I could be wrong, but there's a reason why Bollywood movies just don't cross over to North America.

The same goes for Chinese movies. Either they come off as shitty Hollywood movies or just don't meet our cultural sensibilities.

Given that Star Wars is very much an American movie series going entirely in a different direction would be very jarring.

If George Lucas have no problem with wushu in Star Wars, then I think it is as true to SW as it can be. It's his vision, even if he change it all the time.

Even the PT never went full wushu and Lucas isn't involved in Star Wars anymore so that will never happen. Nor should it have, a constantly changing vision is not good for a stable franchise and the tonal shift is part of why the PT just feels off next to the OT.

Jub wrote: ↑2019-05-15 05:23am

ray245 wrote: ↑2019-05-15 04:57amWhy won't it be true to Star Wars? If you are going to define the OT as true Star Wars, then nothing else can ever be true SW.

I'm not that narrow-minded to say only the OT but at the same time, aside from IMHO Rogue One, everything post-RotJ has been a serious decline in quality and critical reception. The PT had the same problems as the OT but made worse by the lack of anybody forcing Goerge to go back and take a second pass over the rough bits. The new stuff has the trappings, and not even all of them, but feels like it lacks the soul of even the prequel movies.

The newer movies aren't made by George Lucas. They are mostly made by people trying to emulate Lucas, without embracing some of his quirkiness as a director.

I technically did too, TPM came out when I was 11, but I'd seen the OT first. Even as a kid there was just something off about that movie, then I was older for the next two and could see their flaws a bit more critically.

I saw the prequels before I saw the OT, or at the least I've seen all of them together at the same time so I didn't think the OT is better than the PT. The PT have flaws, but they aren't big enough to bother me personally.

I couldn't sit through a rambling three-hour mess with multiple song and dance numbers no matter how much Star Wars they added to it, I have a feeling most audiences around the world would find such a similarly difficult sit. I could be wrong, but there's a reason why Bollywood movies just don't cross over to North America.

The same goes for Chinese movies. Either they come off as shitty Hollywood movies or just don't meet our cultural sensibilities.

Given that Star Wars is very much an American movie series going entirely in a different direction would be very jarring.

This kind of attitudes feels very much like American/western cultural supremacist at work here. Because if places like India, Japan and China have no problem embracing Hollywood blockbusters, Disney films and etc, there really shouldn't be a strong reason why different kind of movies can't meet your cultural sensibilities.

You guys comes from a very culturally privileged position, so I find this kind of attitude problematic.

Also, the success of Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon in the US showed American audience as being able to engage with Chinese Wuxia movies.

Even the PT never went full wushu and Lucas isn't involved in Star Wars anymore so that will never happen. Nor should it have, a constantly changing vision is not good for a stable franchise and the tonal shift is part of why the PT just feels off next to the OT.

I think constantly changing vision is good for a franchise because a franchise needs to evolve or die. The prequels, no matter their flaws, were massive success in the early 2000s and ushered in a whole new generation of fans to the franchise. I think every generation of SW films needs to be different if it is to excite new audiences.

Guys, do you realize how a Star Wars style Bollywood production would go?



Maybe it would be more like a western musical, it would be like this:



Just how many people would stay in the theater for this kind of thing?

FaxModem1 wrote: ↑2019-05-15 06:30am Guys, do you realize how a Star Wars style Bollywood production would go?



Maybe it would be more like a western musical, it would be like this:



Just how many people would stay in the theater for this kind of thing?

That is a problem for American audiences to figure it out. Perhaps if Americans/westerners are more relaxed/ get exposed to more diverse forms of movies when they are young, they won't mind those kinds of movies.

If Indians have no problem watching a movie like Avengers Endgame, then I don't see why Americans audiences should have problem embracing different style of movies.