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The Romulan Republic wrote: ↑2019-03-23 12:41am The thing about a timer is that if for some reason it malfunctions, then there needs to be someone there to push the button. Also, self-destructing the ship is not really something you want to do if you don't have to, and you sure don't want to do it on a timer in this scenario. Because the goal is to keep the illusion going as long as possible, that the Raadus is running. Having it blow up on a pre-set timer, before it is destroyed by FO guns or disabled, is suspicious as hell. Ideally, for the Leia/Holdo plan, you want it to run until the FO blows it up, so it looks like it was simply destroyed with all hands. Self-destructing is only what you do if Hux decides to take it intact instead.

The Romulan Republic wrote: ↑2019-03-23 12:41am The thing about a timer is that if for some reason it malfunctions, then there needs to be someone there to push the button. Also, self-destructing the ship is not really something you want to do if you don't have to, and you sure don't want to do it on a timer in this scenario. Because the goal is to keep the illusion going as long as possible, that the Raadus is running. Having it blow up on a pre-set timer, before it is destroyed by FO guns or disabled, is suspicious as hell. Ideally, for the Leia/Holdo plan, you want it to run until the FO blows it up, so it looks like it was simply destroyed with all hands. Self-destructing is only what you do if Hux decides to take it intact instead.

KraytKing wrote: ↑2019-03-25 03:09pm A little tangential to current discussion, but in keeping with the original topic: am I the only person who sees Poe's maneuver in the beginning of the film as a brilliant use of resources and sharp tactical thinking rather than an offense worthy of demotion and punishment? In-universe, exclusively. As part of a film, I was not a fan of the way things turned out. But if I was Leia, I would have promoted Dameron and given him more leeway in command, since his instincts were obviously better than mine when it came to destroying dreadnoughts.

Think about it. He lost a squadron of A-Wings and a squadron of bombers and destroyed a fleet-killing war machine. This is the sort of attack that should make Rebels proud, not angry.

Gandalf wrote: ↑2019-03-25 05:03pm There was one Death Star at a time, and they represented a massive change in how the Empire was going to oppress the galaxy. The second one also had the Emperor on board.

There's clearly more than one dreadnought in the FO fleet. They have other big scary ships too. So in the long run it didn't accomplish too much for the Resistance given the costs of both people and opportunity.

Jub wrote: ↑2019-03-25 05:14pm Forces in the same position as the rebels are always trading lives for strategic objectives be those time, enemy material, or to influence civilian populations. Poe's attack traded lives for a massive enemy warship and as the fighters were under his command, to begin with, it was his call to make.

Would a force like that Taliban not sacrifice a large number of their limited resources to sink an aircraft carrier even knowing that the US has many such vessels?

Elheru Aran wrote: ↑2019-03-25 05:29pmIf the carrier was directly threatening their base and forces? Sure, perhaps (as was the case in the movie). Without that kind of motivation? Not necessarily.

Jub wrote: ↑2019-03-25 05:42pm

Elheru Aran wrote: ↑2019-03-25 05:29pmIf the carrier was directly threatening their base and forces? Sure, perhaps (as was the case in the movie). Without that kind of motivation? Not necessarily.

The PR spin that would happen because of a handful of fighters taking out a super-dreadnought would be worth it. In the case that we see in the movie the carrier analog was a direct threat and within their reach. They might never get a better chance to destroy something of that size again and trading what a dozen fighters and some bombers for it is excellent value.

Jub wrote: ↑2019-03-25 05:42pm

Elheru Aran wrote: ↑2019-03-25 05:29pmIf the carrier was directly threatening their base and forces? Sure, perhaps (as was the case in the movie). Without that kind of motivation? Not necessarily.

The PR spin that would happen because of a handful of fighters taking out a super-dreadnought would be worth it. In the case that we see in the movie the carrier analog was a direct threat and within their reach. They might never get a better chance to destroy something of that size again and trading what a dozen fighters and some bombers for it is excellent value.

Gandalf wrote: ↑2019-03-25 05:45pmDoes the cost benefit analysis you're offering have anything behind it.

Crazedwraith wrote: ↑2019-03-25 05:49pmAgain, it's rendered instantly pointless when an even larger FO ship shows up straight afterwards. Wouldn't it be ironic if that was the ship that really had the hyperspace tracker do-dad. (In fact wasn't it? Wasn't that why Finn & Co end up on it?) and if the fleet didn't stop to fight and jumped straight away they;d have gotten away clean.

Are you familiar with the term Pyrrhic victory? Because that's exactly what going for the big impressive kill at the expensive of survival is. A few more victories like and the Resistance is done. (I mean it was anyway by the end of the movie but that's besides the point)

Crazedwraith wrote: ↑2019-03-25 05:49pm The FO lost a battleship which it has many more. The Resistance lost half it's fighters and all it's bombers to do something it was going to do anyway; escape.

Elheru Aran wrote: ↑2019-03-25 06:06pmIf you think about it, had all those bombers hypered away (I didn't see any kind of carrier ship for them, so I'm assuming they had hyperdrives, they were big enough anyway) along with the fighters rather than engaging the dreadnought, they could well have been flying cover for the Raddus when Kylo Ren and his TIE escort attacked it, preventing him from blowing up the bridge and hangar.

They would also have been available to possibly escort the Rebels to Crait, or the bombers could have been unloaded and people could have just filled them up to hyper there separately. A lot of possibilities... wasted.

Jub wrote:"

Crazedwraith wrote: ↑2019-03-25 05:49pmAgain, it's rendered instantly pointless when an even larger FO ship shows up straight afterwards. Wouldn't it be ironic if that was the ship that really had the hyperspace tracker do-dad. (In fact wasn't it? Wasn't that why Finn & Co end up on it?) and if the fleet didn't stop to fight and jumped straight away they;d have gotten away clean.

Are you familiar with the term Pyrrhic victory? Because that's exactly what going for the big impressive kill at the expensive of survival is. A few more victories like and the Resistance is done. (I mean it was anyway by the end of the movie but that's besides the point)

Would the forces lost in Poe's attack have made a difference in the chase that came after? Probably not. Hell, given their slow sublight speed Cobalt Squadron would have been among the first casualties of the chase unless they had a capital ship to dock with. If that was the case, why were they armed and flying instead of safely docked in the first place?

Does Poe have the authority to arm and launch bombers in the face of Leia's objections or was Cobalt Squadron armed and active in some misguided thought that they served a legitimate defensive purpose?

As for a Pyrrhic victory, doesn't that apply more to the Resistance escape and loss of the Raddus than for the loss of a squadron of bombers which, as seen in the film, and worthless in any battle where the enemy cares to shoot at them? You make the mistake of assigning a value to a force that showed itself to be slow and useless in the face of a reasonable level of opposition.

We don't know if the bombers had the endurance for that long of an escort run and regardless we know they didn't have the speed to keep up with the fleet.

Crazedwraith wrote: ↑2019-03-25 03:21pm

KraytKing wrote: ↑2019-03-25 03:09pm A little tangential to current discussion, but in keeping with the original topic: am I the only person who sees Poe's maneuver in the beginning of the film as a brilliant use of resources and sharp tactical thinking rather than an offense worthy of demotion and punishment? In-universe, exclusively. As part of a film, I was not a fan of the way things turned out. But if I was Leia, I would have promoted Dameron and given him more leeway in command, since his instincts were obviously better than mine when it came to destroying dreadnoughts.

Think about it. He lost a squadron of A-Wings and a squadron of bombers and destroyed a fleet-killing war machine. This is the sort of attack that should make Rebels proud, not angry.

It's tactically good but strategically pointless. It delayed their escape from the attacking fleet, their main goal and the FO so outnumbers that one ship, even a dreadnought isn't going to make a difference in the long run.

The Romulan Republic wrote: ↑2019-03-25 06:32pm

Crazedwraith wrote: ↑2019-03-25 03:21pm

KraytKing wrote: ↑2019-03-25 03:09pm A little tangential to current discussion, but in keeping with the original topic: am I the only person who sees Poe's maneuver in the beginning of the film as a brilliant use of resources and sharp tactical thinking rather than an offense worthy of demotion and punishment? In-universe, exclusively. As part of a film, I was not a fan of the way things turned out. But if I was Leia, I would have promoted Dameron and given him more leeway in command, since his instincts were obviously better than mine when it came to destroying dreadnoughts.

Think about it. He lost a squadron of A-Wings and a squadron of bombers and destroyed a fleet-killing war machine. This is the sort of attack that should make Rebels proud, not angry.

It's tactically good but strategically pointless. It delayed their escape from the attacking fleet, their main goal and the FO so outnumbers that one ship, even a dreadnought isn't going to make a difference in the long run.

This is a frequent argument from the "Poe did no wrong, Holdo sucks" crowd- but it misses a very important point, which Crazedwraith brought up.

Bottom line is, what Poe did (ignoring for the moment that it was in direct violation of orders) was tactically brilliant, and strategically idiotic. In an insurgency or guerilla warfare, where you cannot match the enemy in open battle, you rely on staying out of sight, engaging in hit and run attacks on vulnerable, less-defended targets. You don't try to go head-to-head in the open with the enemy's heaviest units in conventional battle. Leia doubtless knows this, because she spent about ten years working in an insurgency/guerilla army before the Resistance was ever formed.

Poe was trying to fight the First Order as though the Resistance was a conventional military that could match the FO in open battle. But it isn't. Between roughly equivalent forces, trading a couple of squadrons for a dreadnought would be a net gain, and probably would have been considered justified. But when those are the only squadrons you have, and the enemy has a bunch more dreadnoughts, it is proportionally a net loss.

I'm reminded of a line in Return of the King (book version) where someone (Faramir I think) says that they can make Mordor pay with ten men for every one of there's to cross the river, and they'll still come out behind, because Mordor can more easily afford to lose an army than they can afford to lose a company. Same situation here.

ray245 wrote: ↑2019-03-25 06:37pm If Poe is making the assumption that they can get reinforcements from the NR fleet remnants, then it is a decent strategic victory as well. The remnants of the NR need to avoid a fleet-killer at all cost.

What Poe doesn't know is the NR remnants are utterly incapable of forming any resistance.

Crazedwraith wrote: ↑2019-03-25 06:24pmThey were presumably flying to escape the same as everyone else. Their use or lack of in the chase scene that did happen is irrelevant because the chase scene wasn't supposed to happen. They were supposed to be free and clear after the hyperjump and would then be able to put to proper use.

The fact that they made such a poor showing against the fighters either means that they're shit and useless in all role or Poe was utilising them in a role they were never supposed to fill.

Just one bomber's payload blew up a dreadnought (albeit via a weakspot) what if using them properly would get them all or more than one of them into a position to drop bombs, multiplying the tonnage destroyed by them. What if using them properly would get them home again and allowed them to be used repeatedly rather than suicide bombings?

Again the assumptions the bombers are crap. (If so why have them?) and not just grossly misused.

We actually don't afaik. We know they are slow compared to fighters, but so are capital ships.