Vympel wrote:Yeah I forgot how often directors talking about their thoughts when they wrote a film is a feature of versus debates, happens all the time!
Who cares about directors making vague references to other fictional characters
after I have walked out of the theatre? It's absolutely irrelevant to the quality of the movie.
Vympel wrote:LOL, you honestly expect me to believe given all your bad faith caterwauling and scoffing that you'd ever consider the change to have been established? The narrative clearly established the change and why, you simply didn't like it. Your refusal to take the movie at its word and make petty, irrational complaints that constantly lie about what happened in the movie and treat the story telling with contempt and disbelief throughout your posts demonstrates that handily.
"Refusal to take the movie at its word"
That's a very amusing way of saying "just accept whatever shit the movie is shoveling your way and don't ask any questions". The movie happens to be a sequel that is supposed to continue the story of already well established characters. You don't get to just take the characters and do whatever you want with them with no rhyme or reason and then say well this bad thing happened to them so all previously established characterization is out of the window.
Vympel wrote:Bullshit. What personal failure did Luke in the original film that is in any way relevant to his failure with Ben in character, content or consequences? Where did Luke commit a fuck up as epic as his star student turning to the dark side and slaughtering all but 6 or so of his other students? What movie was that in? This is just a naked irratinal fanboy hero-worship assertion, based on nothing at all.
Right, right unless
the exact same bad thing already happened to Luke before then the writers get to have Luke react however they want and change his character however they please.
So never mind that the droid Luke chose to buy ultimately caused his aunt's and uncle's death which caused Luke to spring into action.
Never mind that he got defeated by Vader and didn't manage to save Han which caused Luke to try again next movie.
Never mind that Vader was fighting Luke even up to the very end of ROTJ which still didn't cause LUke to give up on him
See Luke never had to deal with the specific problem of
all but 6 of his students dying and therefore his characterization is up for grabs!
Hey if in the next movie he looses all but
seven of his students instead of all but
six is that also a COMPLETELY NEW SITUATION and the writers get to move his character in another nonsensical direction?
Vympel wrote:It should be obvious to even the painfully stupid how desperate and weak this argument is. Luke's 'hubris' in TESB was nothing but overestimating abilities to fight Vader. The consequences were entirely personal to him, and didn't effect anyone else. The idea that this is at all equivalent to Ben's fall or its consequences is ludicrous.
Of course of course it has to be equivalent. If it's not equivalent then the sky is the limit as far as what you can do to Luke's character. Never mind that Luke is much younger in TESB, never mind that the events since that movie served to further strengthen his character. Fuck all of that because he never had to deal with this
specific situation so it's totally cool to have him react exactly the opposite of the way we've always seen him react to setbacks.
Vympel wrote:What does any of this bullshit you're talking about have to do with anything? The point is that even in ROTJ, where you apparently believe your idealised perfect heroic caricature of Luke exists all it took was for Luke to almost murder his father was the mere taunt - entirely seperte from reality - that Leia would join the dark side. But yeah, Luke considering for the briefest moment to kill Ben when he has a powerful premonition of all the death and destruction he would cause and then ashamedly turning off his lightsaber - so out of character, lol. Betrayal!
Dude it's not a betrayal it's just a shitty movie.
Yeah it was just a taunt! It wasn't as if he was facing a guy that killed Obi-Wan in front of his eyes, attacked the ice base killing who knows how many people, cut off his hand
and was throwing spinning lightsabers at him. Oh and at the same time being keenly aware that the Death Star is currently in the process of grinding his friends into dust.
All it took for Vader was to threaten his sister and the guy blew up! Geez talk about my perfect heroic caricature crumbling before my eyes! This is totally no different than Kylo the Idiot rushing at a dude he hasn't seen for years, who is currently making no threatening moves and who can apparently withstand 10 AT-AT concentrating their firepower on him.
Vympel wrote:No actual substantive response there I see.
Nothing substantive to respond to in that paragraph.
Vympel wrote:I'm sorry you want carte blanche to make up arbitrarily perfect holograms never before seen in Star Wars as a 'plot hole' without it being called out for being painfully stupid. It's as dumb as complaining that Luke could've been a perfect droid copy of a human equipped with a powerful miniaturised deflector shield, ffs.
Yeah I'm just bouncing of the walls crazy man! Between holograms, Jedi mind tricks, Force ghosts it's just cuckoo to point out that a guy surviving all of that could be an illusion. Because we've never seen HD Force ghosts and HD holograms. So it's more reasonable to conclude that Luke was deflecting that firepower.
Vympel wrote:No, its organic in the sense that its consistent with how we know Ben behaves and his obsession with personally destroying Luke.
He can be obsessed all he wants as long as his character maintains some sense of reality. Otherwise he's just an idiot. As is the script.
Vympel wrote:"Hmmm, I have no real response to anything actual being said ... what to do ... I know, I'll just appeal to my own personal and entirely arbitrarily incredulity at an entirely fictional construct for which I have zero pre-existing frame of reference and therefore no remotely rational basis for skepticism!"
Sure sure it's not like we've seen Jedi blown away by handheld blasters during the Order 66 including that conehead Jedi Master on the bridge that even had his lightsaber. It's not as if Kylo Ren would've learned during his training roughly what Jedi can and cannot do. So there is absolutely no reason for Kylo to doubt that Luke can survive the combined firepower of 10 AT-ATs and that an illusion might be at play.
It's just me and my arbitrary incredulity dude! Because increasing the color palette from 16-bit to 32-bit is no more likely than surviving combined firepower of 10 Abrams tanks. Silly me and my irrational skepticism.
Vympel wrote:The plan was ... kill him with his lightsaber. I'm sorry the movie didn't draw this out on a blackboard, but rage and hatred don't really allow for it.
You mean like he tried it with Snoke and got flicked away like an insect? But now he's going to do it to a guy that can withstand that firepower? Retarded.
Vympel wrote:You know? Really? Cos it sure doesn't read like it:
"The moment Kylo figured it out Luke was useless."
But yes, Luke's plan hinged on knowing how Kylo would react. How stupid, the Jedi Master bet on knowing how his evil former student will behave. But yeah it would've better to write it so as to save everyone with a thing that is guaranteed to work, to eliminate all tension and thereby improve the audience's experience. That's how good writers write movies.
He's betting that Kylo will order
every single AT-AT to fire at him? And also bet that after Kylo comes down for the duel he won't simply order the other forces to continue on. Also he knew that Kylo and not Snoke was in command because the midichlorians told him that Snoke was killed 5 minutes ago. Beacause that's how good writers write movies.
Vympel wrote:No actual substantive response there either I see.
Nothing substantive to respond to.
Vympel wrote:Oh, so we're not talking about remote affectation anymore?
They are not mutually exclusive in discussing the alternatives to cheap parlor trick he pulled.
Vympel wrote:Ah yes, it was 'forced'. Real substantive criticism there.
Yes forced. They dumped some random children we've never seen on screen to make sure the audience understands just how HEROIC Luke was because the writers probably knew themselves that the way Luke was written does a shitty job of doing that.
Vympel wrote:Who knew that you can project a perfect facsimile of yourself to an entire army and even droids with marijuana? Good faith engagement with the material there.
At this stage, its quite obvious you don't have any remotely rational objection to the mechanism of Luke's final sacrifice. Its completely and wilfully irrational, based entirely on assigning a totally arbitrary sense of importance to him "actually being there" irrespective of how totally irrelevant it would be to anything actually happening in the story.
Why don't you just be honest and admit that? "I don't like it" is a lot more honest than all this asinine faux intellectual bullshit where you try and pretend its something more than that.
You pretend I was literal with my marijuana reference and then immediately talk about "good faith engagement".
And you are strawmaning my point. I was talking about Luke doing something that didn't depend on the utterly idiotic script that called for First Order to completely halt their advance and watch a UFC special between Kylo and Luke. He doesn't necessarily need to be there. Obi Wan wasn't "there" as it encouraged Luke to the Death Star exhaust port from beyond.
And since you mentioned droids, guess what, if they were in command they would just continue onward with the mission and stomp on Luke's illusion as it flickers out of existence.
Vympel wrote:No, its an invitation to see you proffer alternatives that could actually survive any of your faux intellectual objections to the movie as written and achieve the same story-telling goals.
Of course, none of them actually could. That's the ultimate point.
I'm not going to write their movies for them dude.
Vympel wrote:No shit, of course the writer decided it was strenuous. What, you think the writer should have gone to the Objective Truth Library of Star Wars and written the movie off of that? You don't know how writing fiction works?
Not only is your obsession with Luke "coming there personally" entirely arbitrary, doing so would lose one of the movies great parallels. "Luminous beings are we - not this crude matter." But hey, fuck that, its soooo important where Luke's flesh coffin happens to be plonked when he sacrifices himself! Just ... because.
Yeah of course the shitty writer decided performing cheap parlor tricks is strenuous in order to try and turn Luke's phoned in parlor trick into some great act of heroism. He did a remote Starlord dance off but it's deadly so it's oh so heroic...not.
And it's not just about "coming there personally". Neo didn't confront Smith "personally". But his activity in the Matrix wasn't just an illusion, he could physically affect it. From the narrative perspective it was real, Luke's actions weren't real, he could stop no one and help no one unless the First Order behaved
exactly the way he needed them to. Fortunately the scriptwriters were on his side.