How many people during the Empire knew Palpatine was a Sith?

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Re: How many people during the Empire knew Palpatine was a Sith?

Post by Solauren »

MKSheppard wrote: 2021-12-27 08:35pm
Solauren wrote: 2021-12-27 03:45pm I can't see Sidious tossing the Rule of Two. Becoming 'the Apprentice' was was two great a temptation to use to control other Dark sides.
He's already broken it in every version of EU, from the old Legends to current Disney Canon.

YODA : Always two there are....no more...no less. A master and an apprentice.

That doesn't jive with the eleventy billion Dark Side Inquisitors, Emperors Hands, Prophets of the Dark Side, etc that inhabit the GFFA following the Imperial Ascension.
The Sith can have other servitors, and they can be force-trained, just not 'knighted' into the Sith.

Also, the rule was 'flexible' when it came to recruiting immediate replacement apprentices. After all, it does the order no good if the 'Senior Apprentice' and 'Master' kill each other without 'back-ups'.

In fact, Darth Bane and Darth Zanna both had replacement apprentices for the order ready to go when they finally threw down.

None of the 'Orders' listed were Sith. The closest real would comparisons would be they were 'Knight/Holy Orders', to the Emperor's 'King/Pope'.
In theory, one could become the Pope, but none were in line (there was only one Archbishop).
In theory, one could become the King, but none were in line (Vader was 'Heir Royale')



As for the 'Rule of Two'. Darth Bane established it, and it was in the novels. Also, the Sith let the odd Holocron 'leak' to the Jedi to taunt them. Also as a sort of 'misinformation'. (ref: Darth Vader - Lord of the Sith. The Emperor had vader retrieve holocrons from the temple. However,they were forgeries, and the real ones Sidious had viewed years earlier)
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Re: How many people during the Empire knew Palpatine was a Sith?

Post by Lord Revan »

It doesn't help that there was 2 versions of the Rule of two in the legends Darth Revan's version (which was the original) and Darth Bane's version.

It should be noted that even Darth Bane's rule of two which was more strict version refers to true Sith when limiting the numbers. Meaning that there's never more then 2 full members of the Sith Order a master (or one to that has the power) and an apprentice (or the one that covets the power). There's no limits to lackeys or acolytes as long they're not members of the Sith Order and thus cannot be traced back to the true Sith.

Btw Darth Revan's version of the rule was akin to limit Jedi Order's limit of one Padawan per Knight/Master and did not limit the number of "master" ranked Sith.

In essence those other Dark Side orders were not considered to be part of the Sith Order and could in theory be discarded should they become a threat to the Sith. Also we know that lesser Light side and Dark side orders exist in GFFA, so the Emperor recruiting those to serve the Empire is not technically breaking the Rule of Two (as they don't serve/join the Sith directly but rather serve an organization (the imperial government) ruled by a Sith).
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Re: How many people during the Empire knew Palpatine was a Sith?

Post by Solauren »

It also lines up with the ideals of the Sith, to have those lesser orders serving them. Sure, you could just slaughter them all, but where would you find a new Sith from if needed, and why destroy something, when you can rule over it?
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Re: How many people during the Empire knew Palpatine was a Sith?

Post by Galvatron »

As I posted before:

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Re: How many people during the Empire knew Palpatine was a Sith?

Post by Crazedwraith »

Trying to game the rule of two so you can have more cool dark side force users for the EU always struck me as defeating the point of the rule of two. It doesn't matter if the rivals are formally called sith or nightsisters or jenasaari or death eaters, it still leads to the same infighting and power plays and fratricide the rule was supposed to stop.
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Re: How many people during the Empire knew Palpatine was a Sith?

Post by Lord Revan »

Crazedwraith wrote: 2021-12-29 12:40pm Trying to game the rule of two so you can have more cool dark side force users for the EU always struck me as defeating the point of the rule of two. It doesn't matter if the rivals are formally called sith or nightsisters or jenasaari or death eaters, it still leads to the same infighting and power plays and fratricide the rule was supposed to stop.
True but then that's the issue with the Sith they can't really stop themselves from trying to game the rules for more power even when it could blow up in their faces. It's an in-universe issue not a narrative one.
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Re: How many people during the Empire knew Palpatine was a Sith?

Post by bilateralrope »

Crazedwraith wrote: 2021-12-29 12:40pm Trying to game the rule of two so you can have more cool dark side force users for the EU always struck me as defeating the point of the rule of two. It doesn't matter if the rivals are formally called sith or nightsisters or jenasaari or death eaters, it still leads to the same infighting and power plays and fratricide the rule was supposed to stop.
Sure, that's always a risk. But when a Sith Lord decides that he's going to bend, or even break, the Rule or Two there is nobody with the will and ability to make him obey it.
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Re: How many people during the Empire knew Palpatine was a Sith?

Post by Ralin »

bilateralrope wrote: 2021-12-29 02:25pmBut when a Sith Lord decides that he's going to bend, or even break, the Rule or Two there is nobody with the will and ability to make him obey it.
Well. That's supposed to be the other Sith Lord's job.
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Re: How many people during the Empire knew Palpatine was a Sith?

Post by Galvatron »

If done right, it might be interesting if Sith Lords held periodic Mortal Kombat-style tournaments so the apprentice would have to maintain their status against any contenders. It would certainly keep them from getting soft, especially during the centuries when the Sith were thought to be extinct.
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Re: How many people during the Empire knew Palpatine was a Sith?

Post by Ralin »

Galvatron wrote: 2021-12-29 04:29pm If done right, it might be interesting if Sith Lords held periodic Mortal Kombat-style tournaments so the apprentice would have to maintain their status against any contenders. It would certainly keep them from getting soft, especially during the centuries when the Sith were thought to be extinct.
Isn't that more or less what Palpatine did?
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Re: How many people during the Empire knew Palpatine was a Sith?

Post by Galvatron »

Not that I know of.
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Re: How many people during the Empire knew Palpatine was a Sith?

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Galvatron wrote: 2021-12-29 06:04pm Not that I know of.
If we referring to the constant training of other dark sides, and eventually putting them up against Vader (and occasionally each other)
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Re: How many people during the Empire knew Palpatine was a Sith?

Post by Gandalf »

I'm not across all aspects of the new EU, so this question may sound odd, but do the Sith even all need to be Force users?

When the various Sith all talk to each other over the holophone, and then fly about on secret Sith business, someone needs to do the paperwork, record tampering, and shonky accounting to make sure that said Sith Lord isn't discovered.

It would be odd if they contracted that out to the nearest Saul Goodman and friends. So it makes some sense for each Sith Lord to have a group of underlings who while part of the Sith organisation, will never be full Lords. However, they still live well as a Sith consigliere or similar. When Palpatine takes over in ROTS, his Sith cronies can install themselves at the head of the Imperial Public Service, and ensure continuity for his own works.
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Re: How many people during the Empire knew Palpatine was a Sith?

Post by Galvatron »

Pretty sure Ochi of Bestoon is just a muggle.
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Re: How many people during the Empire knew Palpatine was a Sith?

Post by MKSheppard »

I was reading the British Chiefs of Staff Minutes and on 31 July 1945, they had fairly long discussions regarding ULTRA:
German Archives

3. A great number of German official archives are now in the process of being sorted and translated and they will, in due course, be made available to the various official historical sections concerned. These archives will include references to the conduct of operations, the introduction and employment of new weapons and many other matters which have formed the subject of Special Intelligence during the war. It will be undesirable and indeed impossible to suppress the German records.

Reaction of Personnel of Historical Sections

4. When our official historians eventually study these German records they will analyse them in comparison with the relevant British documents with regard to operations and the employment of new weapons and techniques. It will then be revealed to them that the Naval, Army and Air staffs have, throughout the war, been in possession of information concerning energy movements and operational and technical intelligence which could not have been received from agents or other means slower than Special Intelligence. Obvious instances are the re-routeing of our convoys to avoid submarine attacks by orders issued immediately after the issue of German orders to their U-boats: the counter measures to meet the G.A.F. attacks on this country and the routeing of our deep penetration raids into Germany: the deployment of our forces in the field in face of German dispositions. On the technical side of intelligence the same insecurity will arise, upon analysis, when the date of the antidote to a new weapon is compared with the first known use of that weapon.
I suddenly then thought of the problem involving the CIS and the sudden end of the Clone Wars.

What happens to all the CIS data?

Surely the CIS high command must have been taking copious notes of when Darth Sidious was in contact with them and what he said to them?

I mean, if a mysterious stranger is talking to me over the holonet and causing me to instigate a galactic civil war, you bet your ass I'm gonna keep a burn file to protect my ass if it all goes pear shaped and I'm on trial for crimes against galactic peace.

That brings me to my point -- at the same time Anakin was executing Operation Knightsfall against the Jedi Temple; there must have been secret operations undertaken against the CIS leadership to destroy their data archives, so that the only source(s) left were the personal records of the CIS leadership, which they took with them to Mustafar, and were destroyed by Darth Vader after he executed the leadership.

Palpatine has the advantage in that he knows exactly when he talked to the CIS leadership or issued orders, so he can simply destroy all high level CIS records around those dates (plus random times to throw FUD into the mix). Also, he doesn't need to destroy 99.999% of all records involving him.

He just needs to destroy enough that even if some post-war Imperial Historian writing the history of the Clone Wars from captured CIS files sees a cryptic reference to "GALAHAD" (or whatever they called Sidious), there's enough data loss that the historian writes it off as "who the fuck knows what this is?"
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Re: How many people during the Empire knew Palpatine was a Sith?

Post by Lord Revan »

Well the Clone Wars was in essence a civil war, as the CIS was a break away faction of the Galactic Republic, not mention that Galactic Empire was declared during the end of the Clone Wars and unlike UK the Galactic Empire is not a democracy so asking wrong kind of questions wouldn't be healthy to begin with.

We also know that only handful of people within the CIS knew that Darth Sidious was the real leader of the CIS and that Count Dooku and the Council were merely servants enacting Sidious' will in fact Dooku and Council went to great lengths as to disguise Sidious' involvement, so it's highly likely that any communication records would be limited (not mention there's technically the risk of those records falling into the hands of the Republic and some major players in the CIS were officially Neutral during the Clone Wars like the Techno Union or the Trade Federation, so those records falling into the hands of the Republic and thus proving their involvement with the CIS would be bad for those organizations).

This suggests that there probably wasn't many recordings made of the communications Sidious had with the Separtist leaders and those that had been made were destroyed when it became clear CIS was loosing the war.
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Re: How many people during the Empire knew Palpatine was a Sith?

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MKSheppard wrote: 2022-01-23 12:08pm I suddenly then thought of the problem involving the CIS and the sudden end of the Clone Wars.

What happens to all the CIS data?

Surely the CIS high command must have been taking copious notes of when Darth Sidious was in contact with them and what he said to them?

I mean, if a mysterious stranger is talking to me over the holonet and causing me to instigate a galactic civil war, you bet your ass I'm gonna keep a burn file to protect my ass if it all goes pear shaped and I'm on trial for crimes against galactic peace.

That brings me to my point -- at the same time Anakin was executing Operation Knightsfall against the Jedi Temple; there must have been secret operations undertaken against the CIS leadership to destroy their data archives, so that the only source(s) left were the personal records of the CIS leadership, which they took with them to Mustafar, and were destroyed by Darth Vader after he executed the leadership.

Palpatine has the advantage in that he knows exactly when he talked to the CIS leadership or issued orders, so he can simply destroy all high level CIS records around those dates (plus random times to throw FUD into the mix). Also, he doesn't need to destroy 99.999% of all records involving him.

He just needs to destroy enough that even if some post-war Imperial Historian writing the history of the Clone Wars from captured CIS files sees a cryptic reference to "GALAHAD" (or whatever they called Sidious), there's enough data loss that the historian writes it off as "who the fuck knows what this is?"

Right now, there's ways to prevent recordings from being made of phone calls. Why wouldn't there be a StarWars market for an encryption or 'worm' that travels with the message and turns any saved recording to static?
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Re: How many people during the Empire knew Palpatine was a Sith?

Post by MKSheppard »

LadyTevar wrote: 2022-01-24 05:38pmRight now, there's ways to prevent recordings from being made of phone calls. Why wouldn't there be a StarWars market for an encryption or 'worm' that travels with the message and turns any saved recording to static?
What stops someone from using a completely disconnected device like a simple MP3 recorder, or a completely non electronic means, such as celluoid film or old fashioned wax recording (aka edison phonograph) to record it?

Also, the HoloNet Signal has to go from Point A to B, and to get there, it has to pass through X Y and Z. While it can be argued that the Trade Federation Battleship likely had special "secure" systems for Sidious' initial orders to destroy the Republic Cruiser and kill the Jedi, what about when the Trade Federation leadership was in the Naboo Royal Palace and was taking orders from Sidious inside the palace?

You could argue that the Feds brought in their own portable holonet system; but that is a weak point, given that there would be a lot of espionage/countersurveillance equipment installed in the walls of the Naboo Royal Palace.
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Re: How many people during the Empire knew Palpatine was a Sith?

Post by Lord Revan »

LadyTevar wrote: 2022-01-24 05:38pm
MKSheppard wrote: 2022-01-23 12:08pm I suddenly then thought of the problem involving the CIS and the sudden end of the Clone Wars.

What happens to all the CIS data?

Surely the CIS high command must have been taking copious notes of when Darth Sidious was in contact with them and what he said to them?

I mean, if a mysterious stranger is talking to me over the holonet and causing me to instigate a galactic civil war, you bet your ass I'm gonna keep a burn file to protect my ass if it all goes pear shaped and I'm on trial for crimes against galactic peace.

That brings me to my point -- at the same time Anakin was executing Operation Knightsfall against the Jedi Temple; there must have been secret operations undertaken against the CIS leadership to destroy their data archives, so that the only source(s) left were the personal records of the CIS leadership, which they took with them to Mustafar, and were destroyed by Darth Vader after he executed the leadership.

Palpatine has the advantage in that he knows exactly when he talked to the CIS leadership or issued orders, so he can simply destroy all high level CIS records around those dates (plus random times to throw FUD into the mix). Also, he doesn't need to destroy 99.999% of all records involving him.

He just needs to destroy enough that even if some post-war Imperial Historian writing the history of the Clone Wars from captured CIS files sees a cryptic reference to "GALAHAD" (or whatever they called Sidious), there's enough data loss that the historian writes it off as "who the fuck knows what this is?"

Right now, there's ways to prevent recordings from being made of phone calls. Why wouldn't there be a StarWars market for an encryption or 'worm' that travels with the message and turns any saved recording to static?
and even if those were not available to the general public, Darth Sidious aka Sheev Palpatine had access to governmental resources as the chancellor of the Galactic Republic not mention being a Sith lord means he might also have access to black market resources. So it's not unlike that he would have access to such resources. Also he might ask the separtist leaders to delete any recordings ASAP and IIRC in Legends it was due to finding Sidious' hideout in Corusant that the Jedi even became aware of his existence.
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Re: How many people during the Empire knew Palpatine was a Sith?

Post by Lord Revan »

MKSheppard wrote: 2022-01-25 07:09pm
LadyTevar wrote: 2022-01-24 05:38pmRight now, there's ways to prevent recordings from being made of phone calls. Why wouldn't there be a StarWars market for an encryption or 'worm' that travels with the message and turns any saved recording to static?
What stops someone from using a completely disconnected device like a simple MP3 recorder, or a completely non electronic means, such as celluoid film or old fashioned wax recording (aka edison phonograph) to record it?

Also, the HoloNet Signal has to go from Point A to B, and to get there, it has to pass through X Y and Z. While it can be argued that the Trade Federation Battleship likely had special "secure" systems for Sidious' initial orders to destroy the Republic Cruiser and kill the Jedi, what about when the Trade Federation leadership was in the Naboo Royal Palace and was taking orders from Sidious inside the palace?

You could argue that the Feds brought in their own portable holonet system; but that is a weak point, given that there would be a lot of espionage/countersurveillance equipment installed in the walls of the Naboo Royal Palace.
The issue there is that a second hand recorder would probably have to be placed optimally to get any useful data out of it, Just seeing the Trade Federation leadership talk to robed figure if you can ID said figure either by their appearance or voice isn't gonna do much good. Also by the time they would taking orders from Sidious while planet side on Naboo Trade Federation had essentially full control over Theed
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Re: How many people during the Empire knew Palpatine was a Sith?

Post by Ralin »

Well, at least one of the Separatist leaders (and the one we know was directly communicating with Sidious) was a massive coward. I don't think it's a stretch to think that Palpatine could have just intimidated him into not even trying. Palpatine can literally use magic to strangle Nute Gunray from across the galaxy if Palpatine thinks he's pulling some shit on him, and with his ESP it's entirely plausible that he'd pick up on that. You only have to do that once to make a lasting impression.

Couple that with the fact that Sidious was getting Gunray to do some seriously illegal shit that he wouldn't want anyone else knowing about and I don't think it's implausible.
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Re: How many people during the Empire knew Palpatine was a Sith?

Post by Gandalf »

Indeed. It's possible that once someone was "in" enough to the point where they had contact with Sidious, they were sufficiently tied to the organisation so that attempting to turn just wasn't worth it. If Nute Gunray turns, then his family, friends, or maybe even homeworld might all meet bad ends.

It's another example of Palpatine's rule by fear.
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Re: How many people during the Empire knew Palpatine was a Sith?

Post by MKSheppard »

I think we're getting a bit sidetracked from the original point that the British Combined Chiefs of Staff were making:

At some point CIS records will be seized. Historians will eventually compare Republic records with CIS ones. People will start noticing patterns.
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Re: How many people during the Empire knew Palpatine was a Sith?

Post by Lord Revan »

Here's the thing though the Galactic Empire has vested interest at making sure any records that deviate from the official story for the Clone Wars are destroyed, not mention having total control over the Republic records of the event and near total control over the CIS ones too.
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Re: How many people during the Empire knew Palpatine was a Sith?

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Lord Revan wrote: 2022-01-26 06:13pm Here's the thing though the Galactic Empire has vested interest at making sure any records that deviate from the official story for the Clone Wars are destroyed, not mention having total control over the Republic records of the event and near total control over the CIS ones too.
We've seen dictators come in and replace everyone in important positions with their "picked men". Some of Palpatine's Picked Men were already inside the Republic at all levels. How many CIS agents were already in his pocket, one way or another? How easy would it have been to move those Agents up to positions with more control, positions where information could be compromised or out-and-out deleted?

Add in the way Palpatine had been working up to that for decades, maybe even before he was elected Senator?
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