Who should have been the main antagonist of the Sequel Trilogy

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Who should have been the Main Antagonist of the Sequel Trilogy

Son of Mortis
1
9%
A'Sharad Hett
0
No votes
Darth Maul
2
18%
Emperor Palpatine
3
27%
Kylo Ren
1
9%
Lumiya
1
9%
Other (Specify)
3
27%
 
Total votes: 11

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Darth Yan
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Who should have been the main antagonist of the Sequel Trilogy

Post by Darth Yan »

The Sequel Trilogy was all over the place in many ways, especially in the Villain Department.We had Snoke, then Kylo and finally Palpatine. Now imagine if the sequels had been better planned; who should have been the overarching Big Bad?

1.) Son of Mortis: This guy has the power to be a threat, is relatively sympathetic in that he truly does love his family, and could tie in with the "let the past die" mentality (one rewrite had his plan be to literally open the gates of hell and unleash chaos on the galaxy so that he can rebuilt it into something better when the ashes clear.) If you wanted to reimagine Rey and Kylo as siblings (and eliminate the romance between the two obviously) he can also tie in with the "broken family" theme while also expanding on his motivations (rebuilding what he lost in his own twisted way.)

2.) A'Sharad Hett: Ties in with Anakin Skywalker, and can show that even after Vader's death his actions left scars. He also has a reason for corrupting Kylo (revenge on Anakin) and can even use his own experiences with Anakin to help sell the manipulation (i.e. he can say that he knew Anakin and that Kylo is NOT making Anakin's mistakes.)

3.) Darth Maul: George Lucas's sequel outline had Maul as the bad guy, and while it might seem corny TCW shows that Maul CAN be cunning and devious as a mastermind. It also ties in with the "evil from the past" theme.

4.) Palpatine: While the way it was done is kind of an ass pull I think you can make a case for Palpatine being the big bad; he was the big bad for the other two trilogies and he really is an iconic villain. It can also tie in the "let the past die" in that for all his power he's a ghost who's time has passed and can't accept it. At least one rewrite I saw was able to make it work by stating that it took 40 years prep work and a LOT of death in order to generate the energy needed to breach the afterlife and extract his soul.

5.) Kylo Ren: TLJ was positioning Kylo as the big bad before Palpatine swooped in, and it would be interesting if Kylo is unable to be redeemed but instead slips further into evil until he's ultimately put down.

6.) Lumiya: For all that Legacy of the Force rightly gets shat on, Lumiya herself had potential as a shadowy manipulator corrupting Luke's nephew as a spiteful "fuck you".

7.) Other: Tor Valum from Colin Trevarrow? Snoke? Heck maybe the Yuuzhan Vong or a similar threat. Maybe a case could be made for these guys
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Re: Who should have been the main antagonist of the Sequel Trilogy

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

In all honesty I'd have preferred it if the Big Bad, whoever it was, wasn't in some way connected to Anakin Skywalker and wasn't a Force user. Let them be some otherwise ordinary, but capable, villain. It is after all a big galaxy, and Jedi/Sith aren't the totality of Force users, and overall they're a tiny proportion of the population.

Thrawn, maybe. Someone who has actual motivations and nuance beyond "for teh evulz" like Palpatine seemed to be.
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Re: Who should have been the main antagonist of the Sequel Trilogy

Post by Gandalf »

Eternal_Freedom wrote: 2021-06-22 06:42pm In all honesty I'd have preferred it if the Big Bad, whoever it was, wasn't in some way connected to Anakin Skywalker and wasn't a Force user. Let them be some otherwise ordinary, but capable, villain. It is after all a big galaxy, and Jedi/Sith aren't the totality of Force users, and overall they're a tiny proportion of the population.

Thrawn, maybe. Someone who has actual motivations and nuance beyond "for teh evulz" like Palpatine seemed to be.
That seems a pretty cool idea. A non-force user who didn't care for the weird theocratic structures running the galaxy, seeking to reclaim it for the muggles could have been amazing if done right. It could even be a decent way of using Thrawn if you keep him the proper space Nazi villain.
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Re: Who should have been the main antagonist of the Sequel Trilogy

Post by Darth Yan »

Gandalf wrote: 2021-06-22 07:33pm
Eternal_Freedom wrote: 2021-06-22 06:42pm In all honesty I'd have preferred it if the Big Bad, whoever it was, wasn't in some way connected to Anakin Skywalker and wasn't a Force user. Let them be some otherwise ordinary, but capable, villain. It is after all a big galaxy, and Jedi/Sith aren't the totality of Force users, and overall they're a tiny proportion of the population.

Thrawn, maybe. Someone who has actual motivations and nuance beyond "for teh evulz" like Palpatine seemed to be.
That seems a pretty cool idea. A non-force user who didn't care for the weird theocratic structures running the galaxy, seeking to reclaim it for the muggles could have been amazing if done right. It could even be a decent way of using Thrawn if you keep him the proper space Nazi villain.
The force users don't really run things (well the Sith do but that's shown as a bad thing.) The Jedi serve.

I did like how the First Order were reactionaries who don't want to give up their power and accept change. That was a fine idea on paper.
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Re: Who should have been the main antagonist of the Sequel Trilogy

Post by Gandalf »

Darth Yan wrote: 2021-06-22 08:37pm The force users don't really run things (well the Sith do but that's shown as a bad thing.) The Jedi serve.
We can see that because we as the audience see the inner workings of the Jedi temple, in a sympathetic way. But what of the galaxy at large? The Jedi may not look good if your sole interaction with them is one turning up and mind tricking you into giving him a valuable space ship part for weird currency worth pennies.

That was something I loved in TLJ, where Luke goes on about how the legacy of the Jedi is one of failure. They didn't see Palpatine coming, and then one of their own joined him. The institution of the Jedi were a failure, so a new trilogy would be a cool place to explore trying to build a successor in the face where the legend of the Jedi is sunk.
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Re: Who should have been the main antagonist of the Sequel Trilogy

Post by Darth Yan »

Except that itself was an exaggeration. The Jedi were around for thousands of years and did a lot of good in that time. The institution was flawed because it got attached to the status quo but their purpose and mandate were good.

TLJ fell flat for me because while I understand what Johnson wanted to do the way it was done felt sloppy (I can buy Luke being angry and having doubts; however I do NOT buy him drawing a lightsaber on his nephew just because he had a vision and sensed Snoke's influence.)
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Re: Who should have been the main antagonist of the Sequel Trilogy

Post by Lord Revan »

Honestly the idea of the First Order as it was shown in the first movie wasn't bad per se, a remnant imperial faction lead by a non-Sith force user, the issue with it was that it was depicted too similar to the Galactic Empire which lead to inconsistent world building.

What I would have done is have Snoke/Ren not be puppets for Palpatine but rather have Snoke be former minion of Palpatine who was able to take charge of the First Order. Also have it be so that the First Order was mostly a local threat trying to annex Republic Worlds in secret and the Resistance was also a local (you can still have Leia involved though) group who were trying to prove the threat of the First Order to the Republic and the First Order getting exposed being a real threat to them since the Republic was that much more powerful as simply didn't get involved because they thought it was a minor local issue.
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Re: Who should have been the main antagonist of the Sequel Trilogy

Post by Knife »

I think it would have been nice to have another villain that doesn't go back into the past. Not an Imperial, not a Force user. Have the Republic an actual competent government but not able to heal all the wounds from the past. Give them a villain they are not used to. Perhaps a Marco Inaros character or 'The Mule' from Asimov. We don't necessarily need to see his/her rise, just that they had a populist movement, perhaps born from revolutions in various systems from both Imperial control and then into Republic control. Almost a Jihad like movement, not about forming a Nation, but about 'freeing' people from the Yoke.

I mean, it makes sense since the Galaxy has been at war on and off for 40 years. Plenty of people had their lives ruined from the Clone Wars through the Empire and into the Civil War. How many lost their dad or grandfather to clones/jedi/droids/imperials/rebels. I feel like there would be enough angst there to have a movement of, probably for wrong reasons, angry people out there to go apeshit hoard and over run star systems to take 'what is owed them' from the 'powers that be'.

The old heroes have no experience in this. Han Solo can't exactly swoop in and blaster fuck a hoard of peeps over running Nal Hutta to free slaves, since the Hutts still have slaves 30 years after the formation of the New Republic. Luke can't exactly Force Choke or Lightsaber his way into groups of people doing exactly what he did in the Civil War, which in their mind, is to fight an oppressive government. Doesn't have to be mass murder and blowing up planets, just people living on worlds where their houses got blown up in war and the rich people's houses where rebuilt and poor lived on the street.

It echoes current events, gives solid themes, makes 'bad guys' somewhat relatable, makes old good guys unable to deal with it requiring new heroes. Doesn't redo Imperial/Rebel motif, doesn't redo Jedi/Sith motif.
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Re: Who should have been the main antagonist of the Sequel Trilogy

Post by Darth Yan »

I don't mind the villain being from the past. The point of the first order is that they're reactionaries who can't accept that their time is over and that what they believed was never good at all. Those guys are always going to fight tooth and nail to resist change and having a villain from the past fits nicely; their fall would be the living embodiment of "your time is over, a new future is needed".

The rewrite I read that had the Son has the big bad plays the "first order are reactionaries who want the bad old days" and adds "and this makes them pawns to a lunatic god who wants to burn everything to the ground.
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Re: Who should have been the main antagonist of the Sequel Trilogy

Post by Crazedwraith »

Basically I think any main antagonist could have worked had they pre-planned the trilogy from the start. Snoke, Ren, even Palpatine. Not pre-planning it is what killed it. Just going off the first two as they were. Ren should have been the big bad but the lack of pre-planning left him nowhere to go. So he's Supreme Leader... what does he want to do then?

And tangentially, if they do have to go with the redemption arc. Don't kill him off to do it. It's been done, it just cements him as a pale echo of Darth Vader. Go for a surrender and be voluntarily incarcerated for his crimes a form of redemption seen far less frequently. Have the final shot of him be sitting in a magneto style glass prison, perfectly contented and mediating in proper Jedi fashion.
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