Any fan backlash against Rogue One anywhere yet? [SPOILERS]

[The Romulan Republic]

Well that's two very different things.

In theory, but in practice the two overlap a lot.

The word 'misogyny' only applies to women but if you Google 'Star Wars misogyny' you'll get more than a few hits. So there's something to untangle there rather than rolling up racism and sexism into one ball (which is not me denying they don't come together sometimes). And R1 is going to get some of the same for the 'no white male heroes' thing but whatever, there's plenty of white heroes out there. But to be consistent, we should see some criticisms of Jyn that can be attributed to her being a woman.

Yes, we should, and you probably could find some if you dug deep enough, although their seems to be less.

That may partly be just because TFA was a higher-profile film though, the first Star Wars film in many years and part of the main saga.

I will point out as well that their is a lot of overlap between racists and sexists. Bigoted personalities tend to be bigoted against more than one group.

But she became this polarising issue- you either liked her or you were a misogynist in many circles. Because she's just like Luke, except with female bits and you like Luke right? At least that's what I heard.

Now that I don't really agree with, for two reasons.

1. As I said, their are legitimate reasons not to like Rey- I don't personally share them, but I can see why one might without being a bigoted ass hat.

2. Rey isn't that much like Luke, except superficially. Luke couldn't wait to get the hell off Tatooine and join the fight. Rey didn't really want to leave, or learn about the Force, at first. She was more a person who got caught up in events against her wishes, and her journey (such as it is), at least in TFA, is more about accepting her role as a hero rather than leaping in head-first and then learning that things aren't as simple as he though, like Luke.

It's not the level of success, and this is kinda in keeping with your second point, it's that the reason for her success leans very, very heavily on 'the will of the Force'. Part of storytelling is making the audience forget that everything is predetermined, that characters really are struggling with choices, that something really is at stake. Rey sorta managed that for me the first time, but repeated viewings have shown to me that she actually hurts the film in that aspect. Without defined depth or justification she becomes a sort of foil to every dilemma the heroes face. Even her one 'mistake' unleashes a bunch of monsters that saves Han and Chewie while affording her another chance to save Finn.

Well, the problem with rushed, contrived plots is more an Abrams-flaw than something specific to Rey, I think. Though he wasn't credited as screenwriter for them, his Star Trek reboot had the same flaws- a plot where the growth and triumph of the heroes was rushed, and the plot relied heavily on contrivance. Yet I don't see anyone calling Kirk a Mary Sue (although maybe that's because New Kirk is too big an obvious dick to really be a Mary Sue, insofar as that damnable term even has a real meaning).

Hell, its a pretty common flaw with Holywood SF films generally, I think.

Of course, the Will of the Force is actually a thing in Star Wars, although I prefer it to be more subtle.

Rey's only real flaw, if you can call it that, is her reluctance to commit to the struggle, and she gets over that by the end of the film. Though I could see her being tempted by darkness down the line, after having come into her powers so quickly and with so little training, and faced captivity and the loss of a mentor at the hands of the First Order.

See, I actually have this theory that for someone sufficiently sensitive, learning to use the Force isn't what takes years of training (provided you have the right mindset- as Yoda says, you have to believe you can do something to do it). We see it with Luke, even more with Rey and Anakin. And even more ordinary Padawans are shown being able to take on squads of troops as young children.

Jedi training took so long, I think, not because it takes years to learn to use the Force, but because it takes years to learn the self-control, wisdom, and discipline to learn when and how to use the Force appropriately. And Rey doesn't have that.

We'll have to wait. As it is I don't much like her. Perhaps that will change. I certainly hope so because I really enjoy liking movies I spend time and money on.

I think that Rey as she is is a good starting point. Their's nothing terribly wrong with her. Their just needs to be more.

I think there's a few things wrong with her beating Kylo First, there should be a great number of Jedi who could beat Rey back in the day who would get their ass handed to them by Vader. That skill gap, between Vader and Rey, between utter badass super force user and utter novice, should be a large gap. Even if Rey narrows the gap with some natural talent/power, it should still be pretty big. In fact between master and novice should be almost the entire spectrum and it's reasonable to assume Kylo falls somewhere on that spectrum, since he is a) a Skywalker (a family strong with the Force) and b) has actual training in both saber combat AND the force. But wherever Rey falls on the spectrum- untrained- it's above Kylo by a decent margin.

This misses, I think, two key points.

First, as I alluded to above, their is more to using the Force than power levels, or number of years of training. One's mindset is tremendously important. And Kylo Ren's mindset, conflicted and filled with self-doubt, is pretty much the worst possible one for a Force user.

Second, Kylo Ren had just had a hole blasted in his gut a few minutes before.

Dedicated training from a Jedi Master can only possibly increase that margin. Let me restate, she's already demonstrated superior mental powers, superior TK powers and superior dueling and she found out about the Force literally yesterday. Ren on the other hand has been studying for years. That's not just an anti-Vader, that's a complete chump. The next time they meet there's no reason to believe Rey will do anything but mop the floor with him.

Eh, their was a line about Snoke completely Ren's training, so presumably he'll be more capable too.

But more importantly, this overlooks the two points I mentioned above-

1. Kylo Ren had completely the wrong mindset for winning a duel as a Force user. His problem is not in power or training- its psychological.

2. He was shot in the gut by a weapon that kills stormtroopers with one hit, and in fact tosses them around like rag dolls. Its a testament to his personal strength (or else the quality of his armour) that he's even conscious at that point, much less able to fight.

Rey is like a karate student who is naturally strong and has great reflexes, but just started learning, beating a master... who's had their arms and legs broken and doesn't care if they lose.

[The Romulan Republic]

I think that in a way Rey's ignorance may have actually helped her. She grew up with legends of the Force, but no real understanding of its limits, and once she received unambiguous proof that she could use the Force, and had time to get over the shock... she probably had a lot more self-confidence than a man who'd spent a decade or so stewing in his own inadequacy.

The decisive moment, I think, was when Ren tried to break into her mind, and she forced him out. I bought that scene more easily than some, because it wasn't some over the top stunt or plot contrivance- it was a straight contest of wills, and to some extent, I think, experience and training didn't matter- personality did, and Rey is ultimately a stronger person than Kylo Ren.

So she beat him. And they both knew it. So next time around, Rey knew that she could beat Kylo one on one. And he knew that she could beat him.

Just look at his face when she pulls Vader's saber from him, to her. He knows, right then, that she can kick his ass.

Rey beat Ren psychologically. It was as much a contest of wills as of strength or knowledge of fighting and the Force, and Ren's will is weak.

Or that's my explanation, anyway.

[Shroom Man 777]

She was in a miserable hell world alone, surviving and stuff, probably clubbing Tusken raiders with her stick. Ren was perpetually surrounded by murdertroopers. Doing his evil magic shit was easier. And his weird ass daddy issues. Yes.

Man, what a fucking Kylo.

[The Romulan Republic]

That too.

Plus, yeah, just because she's new to the Force doesn't mean she's new to fighting. And she fights smart. For a lot of that duel, she's giving ground, fighting defensively, and basically letting her badly wounded opponent tire himself out while she wears him down.

[Tribble]

So, who would win in a fight between Rey and Jyn:

A) prior to Rey's learning about the force
B) after Rey learns how to use the force

[Kojiro]

In theory, but in practice the two overlap a lot.

Oh I agree. But I doubt Rey was critcised much on the grounds of being white, nor was anyone called out for criticising her as white.

Yes, we should, and you probably could find some if you dug deep enough, although their seems to be less.
That may partly be just because TFA was a higher-profile film though, the first Star Wars film in many years and part of the main saga.

See I would think though, that there'd be more, as this would be the 'second time a woman ruined Star Wars'. On some forums the debates went for pages and pages.

Now that I don't really agree with, for two reasons.

1. As I said, their are legitimate reasons not to like Rey- I don't personally share them, but I can see why one might without being a bigoted ass hat.

Ah but see now you're being reasonable and articulate. That's not sarcasm, I appreciate it. Because we live in an ever divided (and firmly divided) world where differences of thought are ending friendships. There is no more 'respected opposition' in a lot of areas.

Well, the problem with rushed, contrived plots is more an Abrams-flaw than something specific to Rey, I think.

Well as a product of his movie, Rey sort of inherits the problems of her director.

Though he wasn't credited as screenwriter for them, his Star Trek reboot had the same flaws- a plot where the growth and triumph of the heroes was rushed, and the plot relied heavily on contrivance. Yet I don't see anyone calling Kirk a Mary Sue (although maybe that's because New Kirk is too big an obvious dick to really be a Mary Sue, insofar as that damnable term even has a real meaning).

Much of the problem is to do with the definition of the term. Definition arguments are incredibly poor though (by that I mean the kind that attempts to deflect criticism based on faulty labeling rather than reasoning, and can be restated by changing only the contested term). That said Kirk has some inherited prowess in nuTrek- he's James T. Kirk and that means something even if it's a different timeline/actor. Much like how all we need to know is his name is Bond, James Bond to know he's going to whoop some ass. Rey lacks that... gravitas, that heritage and I think the fear is that in future installments she won't so much earn it as it'll be crafted for her. But there's always going to be a difference between a legacy character and a new one.

Hell, its a pretty common flaw with Holywood SF films generally, I think.

An artifact of a 2 hour run time to some extent no doubt.

Of course, the Will of the Force is actually a thing in Star Wars, although I prefer it to be more subtle.

True, and I think ever SW fan wants to see the will of the Force manifest but as you say, more subtle. Like, have Rey find a lightsaber- as lost relic in Maz's basement. But Luke's lost one? A touch too far for my liking.

Rey's only real flaw, if you can call it that, is her reluctance to commit to the struggle, and she gets over that by the end of the film. Though I could see her being tempted by darkness down the line, after having come into her powers so quickly and with so little training, and faced captivity and the loss of a mentor at the hands of the First Order.

See, I actually have this theory that for someone sufficiently sensitive, learning to use the Force isn't what takes years of training (provided you have the right mindset- as Yoda says, you have to believe you can do something to do it). We see it with Luke, even more with Rey and Anakin. And even more ordinary Padawans are shown being able to take on squads of troops as young children.

I'm not so sure on that. I think there's certainly a level of innate talent- reflexes, dreams etc that might just come to a sensitive but I'm equally sure some more refined techniques require practice. Like, I would be fine with Rey innately resisting Kylo's mind probe as a defensive, reflex action. But I imagine it takes practice to effectively slice through someone's mental defenses. That's my take anyway.

Jedi training took so long, I think, not because it takes years to learn to use the Force, but because it takes years to learn the self-control, wisdom, and discipline to learn when and how to use the Force appropriately. And Rey doesn't have that.[/quote]I don't disagree, but that only covers one side of the Force. Clearly one can learn to use the Force through other... processes. I'd love to see Rey get some Dark side in her, but I don't have faith in the story to make that work, at least not if they want to redeem her (and oh how they would, if they even let her fall).

First, as I alluded to above, their is more to using the Force than power levels, or number of years of training. One's mindset is tremendously important. And Kylo Ren's mindset, conflicted and filled with self-doubt, is pretty much the worst possible one for a Force user.

See I don't think he is that doubtful. I thought the light going out was a pretty clear visual clue that in killing his father, he extinguished the last light within him. But I'll grant you he could be mentally off his game. But to contrast, I think it's only fair to say Rey is equally off her game. She's had a rough few days. Hunted by stormtroopers and TIES, ripped from the place she most wants to be, captured by the enemy, interrogated and just watched been reduced to tears watching Han's murder. She then wakes up just in time to see her friend Finn sliced up the back and likely killed. Standing before her now is a guy who can block blaster shots, immobilise her with a gesture and has knocker her out with a wave of his hand. A trained force user, lightsaber in hand.

She should be utterly terrified, not to mention physically and emotionally exhausted. That can't possibly be good for a force user either.

Second, Kylo Ren had just had a hole blasted in his gut a few minutes before.

Well he was glanced. Let's be fair, everyone directly hit goes flying, which he did not do and it's obvious why Chewie's aim might be off. But to counter again, Rey has just been picked up and slammed into a tree, then dropped onto the floor a good 20 feet. We actually see her vision is blurry as she rises, indicating a concussion- wholly in line with being smashed into a large tree and dropped a distance. If I had to guess being concussed would probably be worse for a force user than a minor wound.

Eh, their was a line about Snoke completely Ren's training, so presumably he'll be more capable too.

Sure, but he's still playing catch up. A good villain should be ahead of the hero, at least until the end. But more specifically it's where Ren is on the scale. Strictly speaking Darth Maul was just an apprentice but I doubt anyone would argue Rey should have a shot against him, let alone score a decisive victory.

Rey is like a karate student who is naturally strong and has great reflexes, but just started learning, beating a master... who's had their arms and legs broken and doesn't care if they lose.

I was going to make a similar point, that Rey is all natural strength etc. But I don't think Ren is at quite the disadvantage you do. Being all force and mental state related though it's extremely difficult to tell, though I suppose the evidence is in her victory. I still dislike the 'swing' the fight takes though. With Ren firmly in control right up until Rey remembers 'the Force'. It felt like it was supposed to be a 'Use the Force, Luke!' moment but it fails on a few counts. First, Rey never got even the tiny understanding Luke did from Obi-wan. Without some guidance that the Force in an energy field that surrounds us and binds us. It obeys your commands but also controls your actions the idea of 'use the Force' becomes meaningless. It becomes code for 'try something while wearing a yellow hat' and it just works. Second, Luke wasn't being resisted by another force user- it's entirely possible (hell we know now intentionally designed to be possible!) for a non force user to make that shot. Imagine saying 'Use the Force' to Anakin when he faced Dooku? Like shit man, what do you think we're doing here?

But we're digressing a whole lot from backlashes. I'd be happy to continue in PM if you'd like (unless the mods are happy for us to continue)?

[Battlehymn Republic]

The thing is, Jyn, like all of the characters in Rogue One, are barely written, because the true star of that show is the actual battle itself.

[NecronLord]

I'm always confused how Rey can read and operate computers. Her background strongly suggests she should be illiterate. I'm not confused about that with Jyn, because Jyn wasn't raised by someone who wanted to use her as slave labour.

[Adam Reynolds]

I'm always confused how Rey can read and operate computers. Her background strongly suggests she should be illiterate. I'm not confused about that with Jyn, because Jyn wasn't raised by someone who wanted to use her as slave labour.

The fluff indicates that she rebuilt a starfighter computer as a hobby, though it would have been nice if we saw evidence of this in the actual movie. Though she is at least rather ignorant as to the wider galaxy.


With respect to Kylo Ren, he is actually not all that well trained. I suspect the overwhelming majority of Jedi from the Old Republic could have also taken him in a fight, even many padawans.

When you combine a lack of training with a lack of confidence and an injurry, it is plausible that he could lose.

Having said that, it is a poor decision dramatically to have antagonists who are not very effective.

[The Romulan Republic]

I'm always confused how Rey can read and operate computers. Her background strongly suggests she should be illiterate. I'm not confused about that with Jyn, because Jyn wasn't raised by someone who wanted to use her as slave labour.

1. Rey was old enough that she could have started learning reading and writing when she was left on Jakku.

2. She worked as a scavenger of technology- something that knowledge of computers could be rather useful for.

3. I'd kind of figure that such technology is pretty ubiquitous in Star Wars.

[The Romulan Republic]

I'm always confused how Rey can read and operate computers. Her background strongly suggests she should be illiterate. I'm not confused about that with Jyn, because Jyn wasn't raised by someone who wanted to use her as slave labour.

The fluff indicates that she rebuilt a starfighter computer as a hobby, though it would have been nice if we saw evidence of this in the actual movie. Though she is at least rather ignorant as to the wider galaxy.


With respect to Kylo Ren, he is actually not all that well trained. I suspect the overwhelming majority of Jedi from the Old Republic could have also taken him in a fight, even many padawans.

When you combine a lack of training with a lack of confidence and an injurry, it is plausible that he could lose.

Having said that, it is a poor decision dramatically to have antagonists who are not very effective.

I don't know how they'd have matched up in terms of Force powers, but I'm pretty sure that in terms of sabre skills, Clone Wars Ashoka would have wiped the floor with him.

[NecronLord]

2. She worked as a scavenger of technology- something that knowledge of computers could be rather useful for.

And yet, real slave labourer scavengers in developing nations do that, but are often illiterate.

[Galvatron]

2. She worked as a scavenger of technology- something that knowledge of computers could be rather useful for.

And yet, real slave labourer scavengers in developing nations do that, but are often illiterate.

Rey wasn't merely a scavenger though. She was also a pilot and, based on her knowledge of the Falcon, something of a mechanic as well.

[eMeM]

2. She worked as a scavenger of technology- something that knowledge of computers could be rather useful for.

And yet, real slave labourer scavengers in developing nations do that, but are often illiterate.

Rey wasn't merely a scavenger though. She was also a pilot and, based on her knowledge of the Falcon, something of a mechanic as well.

I thought the idea is that Rey became a brillinat mechanic by collecting scrap, just like she became an ace pilot playing X-wing Alliance in her free time that she had plenty of while being a good samaritan slave struggling to survive in a wasteland.

[Mlenk]

And yet, real slave labourer scavengers in developing nations do that, but are often illiterate.

Rey wasn't merely a scavenger though. She was also a pilot and, based on her knowledge of the Falcon, something of a mechanic as well.

I thought the idea is that Rey became a brillinat mechanic by collecting scrap, just like she became an ace pilot playing X-wing Alliance in her free time that she had plenty of while being a good samaritan slave struggling to survive in a wasteland.

Rey is just an all around bad ass mofo that is naturally good at whatever she puts her mind to. Didnt you get the memo?

[Kojiro]

It's a small thing, but having Jyn explain she was raised by Saw goes a long way. It reminds me of Sarah and John Connor, where Sarah is the stand in for Saw, obsessed with defeating a looming, overwhelming enemy and raising a child to do exactly the same. Because that's just the kind of life experiences you have when you're being raised like that. Both Rey and Jyn were separated from their parents at roughly the same age, but for Jyn that explanation makes all the difference.

Conversely with Rey we get nothing beyond 'abandoned in a shit hole at 5'. And just like how being told Jyn was raised by Saw lets us fill in the probable life lessons she got, so to does what we get about Rey. Platt clearly doesn't give two shits about her, so we've no reason to believe she was favoured or spoiled. There's no schools in that place, just desperate people scavenging to survive so we infer she shouldn't have any advanced skills. In modern terms I'd equate her to someone who knew well what parts to strip off abandoned US military vehicles, and sold them for a living. But just because you know which bits of a Apache are valuable doesn't mean for a moment you have the faintest clue how they work.

[NecronLord]

2. She worked as a scavenger of technology- something that knowledge of computers could be rather useful for.

And yet, real slave labourer scavengers in developing nations do that, but are often illiterate.

Rey wasn't merely a scavenger though. She was also a pilot and, based on her knowledge of the Falcon, something of a mechanic as well.

You can't sweep away the criticism of her background not supporting her ability by pointing to her ability and going 'see, she can do that' - she can obviously read and use computers too.

My criticism is a Doylian one - the writers do not understand slavery, their depiction is dishonest and they should not have given her such a deprived background and given her so many skills - not a Watsonian one. She should not possess such skills if she comes from such a deprived background. This is a weakness of the film's consistency and is part of why she is disliked.

The only moment that touched on her background that actually felt real was when she said 'I didn't know there was so much green in the entire galaxy' - THAT was good.

But her background - battlefield scavenger slave child - is a real life thing. There were for instance children who salvaged live landmines in Chechnya for the bosses there, they did not benefit from schooling and education. The film is weak because it doesn't join the dots of 'extreme deprivation' and 'poor education' together. This makes her an unrealistic character - even in the age of hyperdrive and protocol droids.

[Micro-Balrog]

During the Chechen Wars, the Russians employed a mean little device called the NVU-P. It was linked to microphones in the soil to hear the footsteps of approaching men and then triggered bounding landmines to kill them.

It became known, eventually, that the (primitive) electronics inside the NVU-P would not trigger the landmines if the person made less than 3 steps and then stood still for a short period (I'm not sure exactly how short). It is said that Chechen guerrillas would be willing to pay money for NVU-Ps, and some families, made desperate by poverty, then had their children sneak up to the NVU-Ps, disconnect them, and steal them. I am not sure if this is true, but it sounds feasible.

Unfortunately, there have been multiple incidents in recent history where areas of the world lost their access to reliable education. Hungry, badly-educated, desperate people tearing off and stealing elements of ruined old technology they are not capable of fully understanding has been an element of life in 1990s Russia, various African countries, and of course the Middle East.

There have been sad stories of people dying because they attempted to steal nuclear waste to sell it and failed to store it properly, blowing themselves up because they tried to melt the explosives out of old artillery shells [to sell the shells for metal], being executed by guerrillas because they tried to loot a bunch of video game cartridges from a store during combat. People died of Ebola because they looted an Ebola aid center in the recent Ebola crisis and stole the patients' mattresses.

People living on the ruins of a civilization that existed only a decade ago and tore itself apart in war and disappointment isn't as uncommon as we'd like to think.

[Galvatron]

I know this will make no difference to those who are committed to disliking her unexplained skill set, but it's not hard for me to imagine that Rey discovered educational materials aboard all those derelict star destroyers and took it upon herself to make use of them.

We also don't know what sort of people passed through her settlement over the years. Perhaps she also made friends who both taught her things and offered to take her away from there time and again.

[ray245]

I know this will make no difference to those who are committed to disliking her unexplained skill set, but it's not hard for me to imagine that Rey discovered educational materials aboard all those derelict star destroyers and took it upon herself to make use of them.

We also don't know what sort of people passed through her settlement over the years. Perhaps she also made friends who both taught her things and offered to take her away from there time and again.

Having the movie giving us one or two sentence about that would have helped the story massively. The problem is Rey was never shown to have any friends on Jakku.

[Galvatron]

I imagine any friends she had didn't stay for very long. She probably baffled lots of people over the years with her continuous refusals to leave Jakku.

[Crazedwraith]

I know this will make no difference to those who are committed to disliking her unexplained skill set, but it's not hard for me to imagine that Rey discovered educational materials aboard all those derelict star destroyers and took it upon herself to make use of them/

Most because that explanation is nowhere in the movie. You can fanon up any explanation you like if you are committed to overlooking the movies flaws, to paraphrase you, but that doesn't mean the movie actually explained it.

[ray245]

I imagine any friends she had didn't stay for very long. She probably baffled lots of people over the years with her continuous refusals to leave Jakku.

But it's useful storytelling to have friends and associates building up her backstory.

[Galvatron]

Most because that explanation is nowhere in the movie. You can fanon up any explanation you like if you are committed to overlooking the movies flaws, to paraphrase you, but that doesn't mean the movie actually explained it.

Granted, but it's a logical extrapolation. I'm not committed to overlooking the movie's flaws so much as I'm willing to deduce certain things based on what the movie showed us.

IMO, it's silly to equate Imperial warships with Chechen landmines.

I imagine any friends she had didn't stay for very long. She probably baffled lots of people over the years with her continuous refusals to leave Jakku.

But it's useful storytelling to have friends and associates building up her backstory.

I agree. I can't help but wonder what the deleted scenes featuring Constable Zuvio might have told us about her backstory, if anything.

[The Romulan Republic]

Yes. And I'd have liked to see the scenes of the Republic on Hosnia that were apparently cut.

They really should put out a TFA extended edition. With any luck, it would fill a lot of the gaps in the plot.