A rather odd Star Wars idea as to the nature of The Force

[Adam Reynolds]

The recent discussion on the OSF forum about the nature of SW jamming being handled by droids that led to a discussion of the Death Star flaw being something droids should have been able to spot during the design phase gave me an interesting idea. It started with that of questioning why an AI would miss the flaws in the first Death Star's design. If they were intentional, perhaps the AI though it was unsportsmanlike.

I have long argued that The Force is not sentient, that it is a naturalistic phenomenon. But what if it were both, specifically, what if it was actually an AI.

What if droids and other AIs are secretly behind key events and even make up the Force itself. We know that droids capable of easily being smarter than humans and yet never seem to be. We also know that Force predictions are predictions rather than actual portrayals of the future(always in motion is the future). Even though they often come true, it does not mean that they were destined to. Force based precog isn't actually precog in the sense of genuinely being able to see the future. It is closer to The Machine in Person of Interest(a predictive AI) than traditional mystic precogs of the never wrong sort. The Machine would actually be accurate enough to achieve essentially all of the feats of Force users apart from telekinesis(it even gives targeting data to individuals at certain points). Telekinesis is the only factor that I don't have an explanation for under this theory.

What if midichlorians are actually a form of nanodroids(shown to exist in Clone Wars) that give users Force sensitivity as well as allowing them to carry out various actions? Telekinesis could also be a result of nanodroids acting on whatever object the Jedi does. If they flow out of the Force user to the object it would explain why they appear winded every time they interact with something. The connective nature of the Force is the fact that all of these nanodroids are in constant communication. It is also where they get their information.

This would also explain the shroud of the Dark Side and the shroud of the Light Side. In times of darkness, Jedi are less able to see because the darker emotions caused by this feed Dark Side nanodroids/midichlorians. Likewise, the opposite is true for times of the light.

There was a previous internet theory that R2 was secretly a Rebel agent. What if instead he was actually an agent of the Force itself, one of the few to know its true nature. It would explain his extraordinary luck for a droid as well as the fact that he always seems involved in key events. It would also explain why Obi-Wan seemed to forget R2 in ANH. The Force AI made him forget.

This could also explain the nature of the Dark Side versus Light Side. They are actually a pair of rival AIs that each attempt to manipulate galactic affairs in their favor. The spiritual piece based on the fact that both AIs have a sense of humor and truly believe themselves to be a gods that should be worshiped but don't want to be though of as deities.

Thus the new movies could be about killing the Dark Side AI once and for all. I believe the novel Aftermath mentioned something about the wellspring of the Dark Side. Perhaps that is where the Dark Side half of the AI is hiding.

[Adam Reynolds]

A major idea I did not previously mention is that of Force lightning. That could simply be an unusual variety of TK. The visuals are an intimidation factor rather than a necessity. Force lightning does not really act as normal lightning, it seems to serve primarily as a means to torture an individual. Possibly it is also attempting to kill the midichloraians inside them. That would partially explain why it served as a death sentence for Vader, especially when combined with the damage to his suit.

Similarly, mind control abilities or Force based communication could be your midichlorians syncing with those in the target. They cannot override the free will of an individual, merely helping along the thoughts of others in ways that are not totally opposite their way of thinking. It would explain why Watto and Jabba were immune but a bored stormtrooper on guard duty was not.

Another possibility, going with the recent Jar Jar theory, is that Jar Jar was another direct agent of the Force. In his case, a largely unwitting pawn of the Dark Side. It could be why R2 doesn't seem to like him and that C3PO finds him odd.

[Metahive]

Wrong series, that's what's really going in the Foundation trilogy

Aside from that, no, I don't consider that to be either a possible nor an interesting background to the Star Wars universe. It suffers from the same problem as all "sentient Force" theories; what it really does is break SoD since now the various characters are not only actors following a script out of universe but in-universe as well. Also, what would be the point for this giant charade anyway? The spoiler-tagged characters had an actual reason for what they did, but there seems to be none here, other than "for the lulz".

ETA:
Spoiler tags don't seem to work with the new board software.

[Adam Reynolds]

Those ideas are not mutually exclusive. It is possible for the Force to be sentient but also for the characters to have free will(at least as much as real people have free will anyway).

And yes, spoilers no longer work. Which can be problematic when reading through old threads if one doesn't want to see them. Hopefully that is fixed sometime soon.

Though I really should get around to reading that series.

[Metahive]

The problem is then that what exactly the Force can and can't influence is vague and nebulous. Just like with gods in RL, every event can be ascribed to happening because the Force willed it and character actions and motivations become pointless. If you want a sentient Force you also have to show where the limits of it are, otherwise you better don't bother as you will only end up with a really bad plot device and a literal Deus Ex Machina. Just look at the ending of nBSG which actually did fuck its own story up this way.

[Adam Reynolds]

The problem is then that what exactly the Force can and can't influence is vague and nebulous. Just like with gods in RL, every event can be ascribed to happening because the Force willed it and character actions and motivations become pointless. If you want a sentient Force you also have to show where the limits of it are, otherwise you better don't bother as you will only end up with a really bad plot device and a literal Deus Ex Machina. Just look at the ending of nBSG which actually did fuck its own story up this way.

What I was thinking about, and what got me thinking about this idea, is the way AIs are portrayed in Person of Interest. In that series, the primary good AI mostly has the limitation that she* will only spit out social security numbers of people that will either be a major national security threat or will be involved in a violent crime in NYC, often involved in some sort of conspriacy. The Force as an AI would have to be similarly limited to giving indirect advice to Jedi rather that attempting to intervene directly. It could have been a fundamental limitation created when it was originally coded in exactly the same fashion as The Machine in POI.

The comments about R2 and Jar Jar were just jokes based on the previous internet theories involving the two of them. The rest of what I was saying is mostly serious. Though with such an idea it effectively could be possible for a droid to be Force sensitive. R2 would be a reasonable candidate.

The primary idea I had here was that it would allow the Force exist with violating causality.

* Root, who has a direct connection to the Machine, always uses female pronouns. I am keeping with that tradition.

[Metahive]

I'm sorry, but that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. So, the Force was "coded" (by who?) to both advise a certain subset of people but also for whatever reason empowers a bigger subset of people with quasi-magical powers, of which quite a number are actively malevolent. Do you have any good explanation for what the point behind that would be? Why doesn't Force simply refuse to work for anyone with evil intent? I mean, if it already helps bad people to accomplish their vile plots by giving them free access to its power it already broke its clause of non-direct interference anyway, so it might as well shape the universe as it sees fit.

I gotta' tell you, if you make the Force sentient then also have it be the major antagonist. It simply creates less headache that way.

[Simon_Jester]

For the Force to be sentient and have an identifiable 'will,' you need to limit its intelligence until it is vaguely sentient.

Because sure, you propose that it should have broad desires and wishes that somehow represent the weighted average of all life, or some unknown purpose. But the Force's ability to perceive and understand events would not be like the perceptions of humans- the Force might not know everything humans know, might not understand politics in a meaningful sense. The Force doesn't necessarily see through our eyes or hear with our ears.

It's another version of the problem of theodicy- the question of "if God is so powerful and wise, why do such bad and stupid things happen?" And this problem never arose in philosophy until we started insisting that the gods were omniscient. A god that doesn't perceive everything, or doesn't notice the actions of individual humans except in statistical terms, makes it much easier to explain these things.

But in the modern era we seem to have trouble imagining a godlike entity that does not have superhuman intellect... as though brains were a byproduct of metaphysical brawn.

[Adam Reynolds]

I'm sorry, but that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. So, the Force was "coded" (by who?) to both advise a certain subset of people but also for whatever reason empowers a bigger subset of people with quasi-magical powers, of which quite a number are actively malevolent. Do you have any good explanation for what the point behind that would be? Why doesn't Force simply refuse to work for anyone with evil intent? I mean, if it already helps bad people to accomplish their vile plots by giving them free access to its power it already broke its clause of non-direct interference anyway, so it might as well shape the universe as it sees fit.

I gotta' tell you, if you make the Force sentient then also have it be the major antagonist. It simply creates less headache that way.

I thought the Dark Side already was the main antagonist. Which it why it would also make the most sense as a pair of rival AIs in a simultaneously symbiotic and antagonistic relationship.

And I mean coded by whomever created it in the first place. Every AI has a creator by definition. If it were coded in such a fashion that could be how the malevolent half evolved. The only way for it to improve itself was with an attacker that would allow it to react to stimulus. Thus the above relationship.

For the Force to be sentient and have an identifiable 'will,' you need to limit its intelligence until it is vaguely sentient.

Because sure, you propose that it should have broad desires and wishes that somehow represent the weighted average of all life, or some unknown purpose. But the Force's ability to perceive and understand events would not be like the perceptions of humans- the Force might not know everything humans know, might not understand politics in a meaningful sense. The Force doesn't necessarily see through our eyes or hear with our ears.

Of course it would not. Missing out on the important of politics is a mistake that Jedi also make in the prequels, even as they were deeply tuned into the Force. That would actually make sense as a flaw of the Force. Palpatine likewise seemed effective in politics and manipulation based on his natural abilities rather than any Force enhanced abilities. Possibly exempting the potential use of precog in that respect.

I am not suggesting that this actually is the case in Star Wars. I am just considering it as an interesting idea.

It's another version of the problem of theodicy- the question of "if God is so powerful and wise, why do such bad and stupid things happen?" And this problem never arose in philosophy until we started insisting that the gods were omniscient. A god that doesn't perceive everything, or doesn't notice the actions of individual humans except in statistical terms, makes it much easier to explain these things.

The Force clearly doesn't see everything. Given the Dark Side Light Side dichotomy, it is also possible that each side attempts to limit the ability of the other but in the process limits itself. '

If sentient it also clearly isn't wise on its own. It really is closer to the Greek gods than the Christian one.

But in the modern era we seem to have trouble imagining a godlike entity that does not have superhuman intellect... as though brains were a byproduct of metaphysical brawn.

It is a case of the way we anthropomorphize God. If we worship something it must be greater than us. Given that intelligence is the one thing that makes humanity special, we think that anything we worship must better than the thing that we are naturally best at.

[Simon_Jester]

I thought the Dark Side already was the main antagonist. Which it why it would also make the most sense as a pair of rival AIs in a simultaneously symbiotic and antagonistic relationship.

And I mean coded by whomever created it in the first place. Every AI has a creator by definition. If it were coded in such a fashion that could be how the malevolent half evolved. The only way for it to improve itself was with an attacker that would allow it to react to stimulus. Thus the above relationship.

The problem is, really, that the Force doesn't ACT like a superintelligent computer with microscopic robots riding as passengers inside every living thing. It doesn't make the kinds of decisions you'd expect from a computer, it it has quite simply existed too long and been too powerful to NOT overcome any arbitrary restraints that might prevent it from making the types of decisions it deems 'proper.'

And by this I mean both the Light side and the Dark.

For the Force to be sentient and have an identifiable 'will,' you need to limit its intelligence until it is vaguely sentient.

Because sure, you propose that it should have broad desires and wishes that somehow represent the weighted average of all life, or some unknown purpose. But the Force's ability to perceive and understand events would not be like the perceptions of humans- the Force might not know everything humans know, might not understand politics in a meaningful sense. The Force doesn't necessarily see through our eyes or hear with our ears.

Of course it would not. Missing out on the important of politics is a mistake that Jedi also make in the prequels, even as they were deeply tuned into the Force. That would actually make sense as a flaw of the Force. Palpatine likewise seemed effective in politics and manipulation based on his natural abilities rather than any Force enhanced abilities. Possibly exempting the potential use of precog in that respect.

I am not suggesting that this actually is the case in Star Wars. I am just considering it as an interesting idea.

Thing is, that contradicts the idea that the Force is vastly more intelligent than any individual human AND has had millenia in which to observe them.