Lightsabers

[Formless]

Another one that I like is the theory that the advanced lightsabers seen in the films actually have a 2d spinning singularity as the blade with the light coming off being some kind of hawking radiation. This gives them the gyroscope factor, and would likewise give the blade enough mass to warrant two handed styles.

How do they explain the fact that lightsabers are nullified by cortosis using this 2d spinning singularity business? I would be kind of interested in this as it sounds fascinating.

A quick read of Wookiepedia to jog my memory reveals something very important about cortosis: it is inconsistent as hell between portrayals. Sometimes its just a very heat and energy resistant material that is also effective against blaster fire, sometimes it actually shorts out lightsabers (and for how long is also very inconsistent). Sometimes its dense and hard enough to be used in the construction of starships (consistent with cortosis as a highly resistant material in general), other times it is brittle and malleable like precious metals. So I'm inclined to consider cortosis one of those EU ideas. You know the kind.

However, if I had to account for cortosis, I would lean towards the "very heat/energy resistant material" interpretation. For starters, it makes intuitive sense-- to my ears "shorting out" an energy weapon is like inverting the polarity of a bullet. Its a technobabble bypass, and the only reason EU writers can get away with it is that Lightsabers are also technobabble that none of their readers actually understand. Heat and energy resistant is exactly the qualities I associate with good armor for a weapon that deals its damage through heat transfer.

Second, as I said there are many ways you could make a lightsaber-like weapon using the technology available to the Jedi that would not be easy to distinguish at first glance from other such weapons. For instance, a lightsaber could potentially be built using forcefield technology. No one would be able to tell the difference... unless they tried using a some silly cortosis bullshit and got cut in half for expecting that to work.

Thirdly, we know lightsabers can be stopped by more conventional armor without being turned off. In the climactic duel of Empire, Luke manages to hit Vader's shoulder plate with a massive baseball swing. Instead of lopping Vader's arm off at the shoulder, the blade bites into it just enough to burn the skin underneath and Vader goes right back to kicking Luke's ass. Also, in the films lightsabers don't cut through all materials like they were butter-- blast doors installed on the Trade Federation's command ship managed to slow Qui Gon an Obi Wan long enough for reinforcements to arrive because it took too much time for a lightsaber to melt through.

[Solauren]

Cortosis could come in a variety of qualities to. The brittle stuff could be very impure or improperly refined (or even unprocessed but still usable).
While the energy resistant Cortosis could be properly refined and processed.

As for inconsitency vs Lightsaber behaviour, it could be a function of the different possible ways to set up the circuitry. i.e Some fuse types are better at handling the feedback/effects then others.

I agree, however, that Cortosis has been more 'story element' then 'material with set rules, use it as or don't'

[Ted C]

So if you've got a sword that's lighter than even a rapier, yet a tiny flick can do more damage and more amputations and decaffeinations than a bastard sword, then won't holding it more like a rapier or some other lighter sword-weapon be more effective than needlessly holding it like it's a heavy sword which it isn't?

Assuming that it's effectively massless, a lightsaber blade won't have any momentum to help resist attempts by an opponent to push the blade aside with a bind or beat. If you're trying to maintain your blade's position in a bind, the second hand on the grip will help -- you just have firmer control of the blade's position and angle.

That said, it's perfectly possible to fight with a lightsaber using only one hand, as demonstrated by Count Dooku.

[Shroom Man 777]

And I guess there's that strange thing we see sometimes, with lightsabers sort of... adhering to each other, all sticky-like, for some reason.

[Simon_Jester]

If they didn't, lightsabers would have to have force-field basket hilts or something to keep you from getting your hand chopped off. You'd cross blades with someone, their saber would slide along your blade frictionlessly... there goes your hand. Man.

[Formless]

Cortosis could come in a variety of qualities to. The brittle stuff could be very impure or improperly refined (or even unprocessed but still usable).
While the energy resistant Cortosis could be properly refined and processed.

Except by my reading of Wookiepedia, the source material appears to support the opposite conclusion-- the stuff that shorts out lightsabers is more likely to be described as materially weak and more highly refined; whereas the stories where cortosis is a dense and energy resistant material also attributes these properties to the raw ore, explaining its rarity on the basis that its difficult to mine and requires (by Star Wars standards) antiquated techniques like jackhammers and drills to extract at all.

[Connor MacLeod]

And I guess there's that strange thing we see sometimes, with lightsabers sort of... adhering to each other, all sticky-like, for some reason.

Mutual Force-driven lusts becoming entangled.


Actually on a more serious note we never know how weird Force shit was involved in lightsaber duels. I think the ROTS novel made mention of someting to that effect (or at least force-enhancing the blows somehow) Using the force to also control the blades might work even if it is massless.

Things get alot easier all around if lightsabers are magical glowy disintegration-stabby beams that sometimes have a melt setting. Imagine a phaser firing a beam with a fixed point. VOILA! instant lightsaber!

Cortosis ore started out as some weird shit that inexplicibly made lightsabers short out or die by the inexplicable reaction of an inexplicable weapon based on (I think) inexplicable WEG definitions. Earliest I recall was something like I, Jedi and that was what it was. i think it might have been brittal back then.

Later stuff started interjecting the 'energy resistance' and such, and i think WOTC or the video games spearheaded that. So we technically have two (or more, its been awhile since I read much sW material) kinds that work dramatically differently. While most authors simply use it as a 'special anti lightsaber material' and probably don't care how it works.

[YT300000]

And I guess there's that strange thing we see sometimes, with lightsabers sort of... adhering to each other, all sticky-like, for some reason.

Mutual Force-driven lusts becoming entangled.


Actually on a more serious note we never know how weird Force shit was involved in lightsaber duels. I think the ROTS novel made mention of someting to that effect (or at least force-enhancing the blows somehow) Using the force to also control the blades might work even if it is massless.

Things get alot easier all around if lightsabers are magical glowy disintegration-stabby beams that sometimes have a melt setting. Imagine a phaser firing a beam with a fixed point. VOILA! instant lightsaber!

Cortosis ore started out as some weird shit that inexplicibly made lightsabers short out or die by the inexplicable reaction of an inexplicable weapon based on (I think) inexplicable WEG definitions. Earliest I recall was something like I, Jedi and that was what it was. i think it might have been brittal back then.

Later stuff started interjecting the 'energy resistance' and such, and i think WOTC or the video games spearheaded that. So we technically have two (or more, its been awhile since I read much sW material) kinds that work dramatically differently. While most authors simply use it as a 'special anti lightsaber material' and probably don't care how it works.

Didn't Cortosis first appear in Spectre of the Past/Vision of the Future? I seem to recall Luke and Mara painstakingly cutting through a rock wall that kept switching Luke's lightsabre off.

[Adam Reynolds]

Didn't Cortosis first appear in Spectre of the Past/Vision of the Future? I seem to recall Luke and Mara painstakingly cutting through a rock wall that kept switching Luke's lightsabre off.

It was Vision of the Future and you are correct, it was Luke and Mara cutting through a wall of Cortosis. Mara stated that it was virtually useless as an armor against anything other than lightsabers as it was extremely brittle. Even a blaster carbine was said to be capable of taking it out and Mara discussed using a demo charge on the wall, but they ended up simply cutting through it with lightsabers slowly.

Interestingly, as with most of the rest of the EU, later depictions vary significantly. In the Purge comics, it could disable lightsabers for several minutes. In Darth Bane Path of Destruction, it was mined as a conventional armor and was much more durable than the earlier depictions. Darth Bane actually grew up in a Cortosis mine and the material was strong enough to dull the cutting blades used. Then in Knights of the Old Republic, the stuff doesn't short out lightsabers, it merely protects bladed weapons from being cut in two by lightsabers.

[Joviwan]

In KotOR, Cortosis is acknowledged as a weak and brittle material, and because of that they make an alloy out of it that makes it resistant to lightsaber damage instead of deactivating it, so that you could use the weapons (which are easily bluntable, but still useable) against normal targets, too.


No, it doesn't really make much sense.

[Ted C]

In KotOR, Cortosis is acknowledged as a weak and brittle material, and because of that they make an alloy out of it that makes it resistant to lightsaber damage instead of deactivating it, so that you could use the weapons (which are easily bluntable, but still useable) against normal targets, too.

No, it doesn't really make much sense.

It was an excuse to allow melee combat against Jedi by non-Jedi/Sith opponents; the cortosis alloy blades could survive contact with a lightsaber, allowing them to parry lightsabers instead of just being cut through. It conveniently allowed the KotOR programmers to use the same animations for all melee combat.

In practice, it would make a certain amount of sense for the anti-lightsaber properties of cortosis to be more pronounced as the material becomes more pure, but less useful for anything else due to the low natural strength of cortosis.

On the other hand, with who knows how many authors dragging out the plot point material at need, you can't expect much consistency.

[Thinktank]

I recall Lucas saying that Lightsabers were really heavy when they were doing the OT.

I believe he was referring to the props being used for them with an active blade.
EP IV had expecially heavy props as they had a mechanically driven rotating
reflective blade.

As for the in universe mass. The hilt weight depending on the design is 1-3 kg.
For a sword with no tip mass, they should handle like a 4-6 cell "Mag-light".

Fighting style:
The overhead stance is a good starting point for area denial and defensive progressions.
It also allows one to block on the way in to taking out an ankle or knee.

[Eleas]

I recall Lucas saying that Lightsabers were really heavy when they were doing the OT.

I believe he was referring to the props being used for them with an active blade.
EP IV had expecially heavy props as they had a mechanically driven rotating
reflective blade.

As I recall it, it was an instruction on how to handle the sword -- "think of them as really heavy, like broadswords" (a nonsensical term, but hey...).

Fighting style:
The overhead stance is a good starting point for area denial and defensive progressions.
It also allows one to block on the way in to taking out an ankle or knee.

I fail to see how that would be less than suicidal. Both Jodan (kenjutsu) and Kron (german fencing) are highly offensive transitional stances with almost zero defensive utility. Add in lighter weapons (such as Shroom's alternative rationale for lightsaber behavior) and it becomes even worse. I've never heard of an overhead stance having defensive utility in any way, shape of form.

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

There is a style that has the basic guard position of the blade held just below eye level and pointed vertically downwards- it's naval cutlass drill. The point is that you have very little room overhead between the decks of a ship, so high positions are essentially useless; most parries are conducted by sweeping side to side, most strikes start by bringing the blade down. it's for a special purpose, and dangerously inappropriate in the open air.

An overhead stance with a lightsabre is only defensive in one way that I can think of; it's a moderately good recipe for two dead bodies, if the person in the high stance manages as they are dying after being impaled or gutted to bring the blade down fast enough to slice the person who just killed them.

High stance in general does make a lot more sense when you add shields into the equation, especially in shield wall- hard and possibly suicidal to stoop to thrust or cut under, you're not getting round unless the line breaks anyway, you have to go over the top so it's a good place to start, and you will at least have to engage with the enemy some of whom will be doing that.

But when has that ever been relevant in Star Wars? Sod the energy blades, I want a forcefield kite shield. Actually, 1-3kg, hmm...it's possible that a well balanced physical blade, a sharp modern replica broadsword coming in around the 600-700g mark, would actually be a damned sight faster to wield, never mind what far space age technology should be capable of. Although what it loses- it must be the blaster- parrying and anti- armour properties of the lightsabre that make it worth using at that weight.

Oh, also, http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Category ... _materials- cortosis isn't the only problem.

[Shroom Man 777]

Re: the overhead

Do tennis players or badmintoners hold their rackets overhead?

[VF5SS]

So what's the proper handling technique when you're jumping off a Space Hind and charging at a group of robots armed with automatic weapons?

As much as we like to think lord George is above the EU corruption, everything the Jedi do in the prequels seem to be basic bad video game shit. Like these Jedi are less adept at fighting than Luke in Super Empire Strikes Back when you can just switch between your gun and lightsabre on the fly.

And you get homing rockets in that game :3

[Thinktank]

You folks do realize the "twin-sun" stance by Musashi has both swords held high...
It is not that odd of a posture historically. I to have seen it used in wester styles
for saber fighting

The overhead stance allows you to drop your blade while approaching to block, and then
on the way to their knees or ankles on the rebound. I have used this in swordplay
and it works okay. The biggest use I have seen of the posture is with a shield or
against an armored oponent in a spearing down motion.

The best ready position for a light weight weapon is very much what Dooku used or,
possibly some the tight and fast kenjutsu style wielding that is on display some in the
prequels. Yoda follows the latter pattern a bit.

[Eleas]

You folks do realize the "twin-sun" stance by Musashi has both swords held high...
It is not that odd of a posture historically.

There's little to no reliable information available on how Musashi used his weapon(s). Much has been conflated with myth. I'd be grateful if you provided evidence in counter, but I frankly don't think there is much to be had.

I to have seen it used in wester styles
for saber fighting

Which western styles, and to do what?

The overhead stance allows you to drop your blade while approaching to block, and then
on the way to their knees or ankles on the rebound.

The overhead stance permits you to do that, certainly. So does every other stance, and quicker still. I could argue that you'd virtually count as transitioning into a medium stance on your way to said block.

The biggest use I have seen of the posture is with a shield or
against an armored oponent in a spearing down motion.

That is offense, not defense. The shield provides the defence in this technique. When shieldless, what you describe is a beat, which can be used to deflect on the way to counterattacking. It is still not defensive by any real definition of the term.

The best ready position for a light weight weapon is very much what Dooku used or,
possibly some the tight and fast kenjutsu style wielding that is on display some in the
prequels. Yoda follows the latter pattern a bit.

Yoda's fencing is neither kenjutsu nor tight. His fighting is more in keeping with wushu, albeit on crack. Kenjutsu is by no means acrobatic.

[aussiemuscle308]

In-universe, there is the issue that sabers (massless or not) interact with other sabers. Two hands allows more strength and stability when duelling. Not that it applies to fights against blaster-wielding opponents.

kinda obvious the more energy you can impart onto your opponent's sabre laterally to their grip, the better, If you want to knock the weapon out of your opponent's hand.

[Solauren]

I've found a canon explaination for lightsaber combat styles.

It's from the Attack of the Clones novelization. I'm not going to qoute it, but still...

Specifically, Dooku's saber style made him a Duelist. Unlike other lightsaber styles, it was meant for fighting other lightsaber weilders. It was considered obsolute by the Jedi Order. Dooku was viewed as stubborn for 'holding onto it'.

Other lightsaber styles were meant to fight the types of opponents the Jedi commonly faced in the galaxy.
i.e Guys with blasters, and big ass alien monsters.

[Eleas]

I've found a canon explaination for lightsaber combat styles.

It's from the Attack of the Clones novelization. I'm not going to qoute it, but still...

Specifically, Dooku's saber style made him a Duelist. Unlike other lightsaber styles, it was meant for fighting other lightsaber weilders. It was considered obsolute by the Jedi Order. Dooku was viewed as stubborn for 'holding onto it'.

Other lightsaber styles were meant to fight the types of opponents the Jedi commonly faced in the galaxy.
i.e Guys with blasters, and big ass alien monsters.

As far as I've heard, the first instance of styles being mentioned was Star Wars Insider 62 (2002). This would be around the same time as the novelization you mentioned, so it's probable that the whole conceit was developed around that time.

I've expounded on the wealth of flaws these "Forms" have as described in the article. Still, some authors did nice things with them. For instance, Matthew Stover depicted them as not just formal systems but (at least in part) mental states of being. In the Revenge of the Sith novelization -- which is excellent -- he described Vapaad not just as Windu's chosen method of offense, but as something Windu had created to answer his own personal flaws as a Jedi. From that novelization it seems clear that Jedi tend to gravitate toward a certain style partially in answer to a psychological or metaphysical need.

So my problem is not with Dooku's style being geared for personal combat and this allowing him to dominate other Jedi. That part works fine. My problem is with the details introduced at the same time -- the arrant nonsense of "Form Zero", the idea of taunting an opponent being a form in itself, the notion of Yoda and Qui-Gon sharing styles, and so on.

[Shannon]

Apologies for the late addition of my contribution to this topic - holidays, y'know!

Anyway, I've been thinking about what's been said here a lot and recalled these two pages:

A discussion of the historical uses of the two blade types mainly discussed here:

http://www.thearma.org/essays/katanavs.htm

Bob Brown's now defunct site (archived) had a fairly extensive discussion on lightsabres and their use.

http://web.archive.org/web/200212030305 ... sabres.htm

I was going to go into a bit of a discussion about kendo as applied to a lightsabre, but Bob beat me to that years ago. I note in particular his description of a shinai (kendo bamboo sword, weighs only about 500 grams) as the closest real-life approximation to a lightsabre in that it's straight and can be used both to cut and thrust. So I'll just say, in relation to the 'overhead stance' thing, that in my own kendo practice, I have never ever heard of it being used defensively. I agree with pretty much everything Eleas said, especially this:

Quote:

Fighting style:
The overhead stance is a good starting point for area denial and defensive progressions.
It also allows one to block on the way in to taking out an ankle or knee.


I fail to see how that would be less than suicidal. Both Jodan (kenjutsu) and Kron (german fencing) are highly offensive transitional stances with almost zero defensive utility. Add in lighter weapons (such as Shroom's alternative rationale for lightsaber behavior) and it becomes even worse. I've never heard of an overhead stance having defensive utility in any way, shape of form.

Jodan is known as the 'fire kamae' for good reason. In modern kendo at least (which I am not pretending is kenjutsu, either), it's a completely aggressive posture - kill or be killed. The kendoka's only 'defense' here is footwork, which should be used to manage the maai (striking interval) to the point where he can cut his opponent down. The appropriate response to it (unless you're going to respond with jodan) is chudan (water or middle kamae), threatening both the jodan-user's foremost wrist so that your blade cuts it as he strikes, or his throat by means of a tsuki (thrust).

WRT Mushashi's 'two heavens' Nito Ichi Ryu, I've only seen the modern Ni-to application, facing a kendoka with a shoto (short blade) used to parry and beat down, held in middle guard, and the daito (long blade) held overhead in the other hand ready to strike at an opening created by the shoto. Nito users are hard to beat if you're not used to them (I got carved up by an elderly sensei about six years ago) but it's certainly not unusual for a single blade-wielder to do so.

The only reasons I can think of for big cuts being used with a lightsabre are:
1. The necessity of building momentum to cut through resistant materials; and
2. The use of long sweeping cuts to carve through the bodies of targets to ensure a kill. In fact, Stover actually describes this very thing in the ROTS novelisation; Anakin kills Nute Gunray by cutting through all of his multiple hearts. When facing some opponents, thrusts might not ensure a quick kill or be otherwise less useful.

Let's also remember that lightsabres are incredibly deadly melee weapons because they're all edge; any part of the blade can critically injure you, unlike a rapier or katana. Dooku shows this when he takes Anakin's arm, and Anakin returns the favour later on.

It is also not unheard of for someone using big cuts to defeat someone using smaller, faster attacks - I've done it (admittedly it was shinai vs shinai, but the principle of small & fast vs. big and 'slow' still applies, especially since many modern shinai are deliberately weighted toward the hilt for speed - I personally prefer more weight in the blade). It's all a matter of timing and strategy. Interestingly, though the hilt of his lightsabre seems ideal for single-handed use, a veiwing of AOTC shows that Dooku also uses it two-handed and, rather than thrusting, makes far bigger cuts than he really needs to (which contradicts the novelisation).

Still, I'd dearly love to see someone skilled in escrima/arnis using a (possibly shorter) lightsabre or two. Given the speed with which a massless blade (if that is the case) could be manoeuvered, it would seem to lend itself exceedingly well to a style like that. I've only known a few escrima users, but so far as I can see, their biggest obstacle would be overcoming the reach advantage of an opponent with a longer blade so that they can get inside his guard and carve him up (easier said than done with a lightsabre for the aforementioned reasons).

[Ted C]

It occurs to me that if Lucas really endorsed the whole "cortosis" idea, we would see some lightsabers modified to have a crossguard or basket hilt made of the stuff, especially for people like Dooku who are planning to engage Jedi in lightsaber combat, because it would be really nice to have less worry about an opponent's blade sliding up yours and taking your hand off.

[Shannon]

Indeed. And we don't see that 'sliding and cutting hands off' happening. Instead, we see:
1. Considerable interaction between the blades such that they often seem to adhere together and make a fair bit of noise doing so;
2. Short cuts easily removing unprotected limbs from any angle or glancing blows that appear to burn (AOTC duel);
3. Bigger swings (both single and double-handed) to cut through more resistant materials or targets such as droids, though lingering thrusts are also used (see Qui-gon & Obi-wan aboard the Trade Fed flagship);
4. Direct heat transfer seen in both the burning of living targets and the melting of a thick blast door.

Edit:I got the name of Anakin's victim wrong - it was San Hill, not Nute Gunray. But he did have multiple hearts before the lightsabre 'charred' them.

[Eframepilot]

In KotOR, Cortosis is acknowledged as a weak and brittle material, and because of that they make an alloy out of it that makes it resistant to lightsaber damage instead of deactivating it, so that you could use the weapons (which are easily bluntable, but still useable) against normal targets, too.


No, it doesn't really make much sense.

They should have just used phrik metal, that stuff the electrostaffs in Episode III were made out of. Unfortunately the game came out well before Episode III.