Red Letter Media RotS Review Up

[Jim Raynor]

I don't know if RLM is in it for just the money or not, and I don't care. I just couldn't help but agree with some of his points--his one about the PT movies' tone was another good example. ESB's tone is set from the beginning as dark, and doesn't waver. We go from the sinister probe to Wampas attacking Luke to Luke and Han in danger of freezing. Then the probe threat again, an Imperial attack, and running from the Imperial Fleet. Luke is confronted by dark side apparitions and premonitions of his friends' pain during his training. All are betrayed, Threepio is blown apart, Han is encased in a block of metal, Chewbacca is tortured, Leia is heartbroken, and Luke's hand is amputated.

There's no slapstick comedy in ESB. The tone of the movie is steady throughout.

Interspersing Artoo's antics in the hanger in ROTS with a beheading is not the way to maintain a steady tone, nor are Jar Jar's antics in the same room with the emotions we are expected to invest in Qui Gon's death and cutting a Sith in half.

And yet ANH, the movie that started it all, alternated guys getting their necks snapped, disfigured murderers talking about their death sentences, people getting their arms hacked off, burned corpses of parent figures lying in the sand, a kindly old mentor being cut down, and billions of people beng killed with C-3PO bumbling around, R2 being cute, Jawas squeaking "Utinni!", Chewie being a big scaredy cat, and Leia making a mockery out of her supposedly big strong male rescuers.

Silly comedy alternated with serious consequences goes back to the beginning of Star Wars.

I was going back over some of the previous posts here. I know it's not quite the same topic, and would welcome a split to discuss TPM as a separate thread, but it really struck me reading the argument about the shield generator on the Naboo starship escaping the blockade. I don't know about some of you, but the shields not working doesn't necessarily make them "sitting ducks". It's the dialogue that gets me--I consider it poor writing. Try this experiment and see if the dialogue makes more sense to you where you wouldn't have any problem trying to explain or have it explained to you on a BB: replace the word "Shield" with "Thruster" or "Engine" and see if the dialogue and tension in the scene makes more sense.

The dictionary defines "sitting duck" as "a helpless or easy target." It's a very, very general and informal expression. Talk about nitpicking and inventing problems.

[Srelex]

Yeah, I think it's best that you put this document up Raynor, unless it's not ready or something.

As a side-note, I feel it would be amusing for Raynor to try and debate in the comments section of the video itself with the Youtube monkeys. Probably not going to result in anything, but I can imagine it...

[Jim Raynor]

Hey, maybe you think you're being considerate, I dunno, but "nuhh i wrote this huge document, maybe i'll send people a summary over PM if they ask nicely" sounds like empty huffing and puffing to most people.

It's not "maybe," you fucking liar, it's I will and I have. You're getting it too, right after this post.

If it's so dynamite, you should be eager to post it, even if only to shut up the people (like me) who are going to start loudly wondering if this "seventy page document" even exists.

Did you miss the part about it being unfinished? The whole thing is littered with notes to myself about what to expand upon or clean up. Of the few people challenging me on this, one person who has already been sent the list was completely unprepared for debating it. I've also posted more points against the review in this very thread, and again people weren't able to debate it.

[StarshipTitanic]

Hey, maybe you think you're being considerate, I dunno, but "nuhh i wrote this huge document, maybe i'll send people a summary over PM if they ask nicely" sounds like empty huffing and puffing to most people.

It's not "maybe," you fucking liar, it's I will and I have. You're getting it too, right after this post.

How can anyone be a "liar" when questioning the existence of your screed when you refuse time and time again to prove its existence and defend it publicly? The TPM video was posted in December 2009 and it's January 2011 and you still can't bring yourself to finish your typed reply?

The 9 or so nitpicks you sent me and presumably him are not a 67 page document. I wish I could start shouting and swearing at my professors to get out of long assignments I don't feel like actually writing.

Every single post you make serves more to discredit your own points far more than the rapist-murderer act put on by Stoklasa hurts his valid criticism. At least he provided his arguments and evidence. Not even the other staunch prequel defenders in this thread reach the frothing insanity that permeates every word you type.

In short, you're full of shit and there is neither a grandiose 70 page document nor do you have any intentions of completing one.

[adam_grif]

The TPM video was posted in December 2009 and it's January 2011 and you still can't bring yourself to finish your typed reply?

It might just be that it's rivaling War and Peace for for length and thus takes forever to edit.

[TOSDOC]

And yet ANH, the movie that started it all, alternated guys getting their necks snapped, disfigured murderers talking about their death sentences, people getting their arms hacked off, burned corpses of parent figures lying in the sand, a kindly old mentor being cut down, and billions of people beng killed with C-3PO bumbling around, R2 being cute, Jawas squeaking "Utinni!", Chewie being a big scaredy cat, and Leia making a mockery out of her supposedly big strong male rescuers.

Silly comedy alternated with serious consequences goes back to the beginning of Star Wars.

I could say "Thank you" here for proving my point--Lucas can't set the tone of a film as well as other directors.

But I certainly wouldn't want it to appear as though I dislike the humor in Star Wars. I like it very much in the OT. I didn't approve of the slapstick. I just didn't think it was Star Wars, and I heartily agreed with:

There was actually a fair deal of humor in TESB, but it was handled more skillfully than in the prequels, yes.

But you do have me here:

The dictionary defines "sitting duck" as "a helpless or easy target." It's a very, very general and informal expression. Talk about nitpicking and inventing problems.

My GOD, Jim, you're right! The Executor WAS certainly a helpless or easy target without those shields, wasn't it? Not to mention the second Death Star. "You know, it's sort of like poetry, it rhymes..."

I'm such a fool. This is how it works. Allow me to concede. I throw myself at your feet.

Did anyone else try my experiment with the dialogue?

[StarshipTitanic]

Did anyone else try my experiment with the dialogue?

Yeah, it's odd. Maybe Lucas really did rush out the script after one draft like Plinkett suggests and for some reason he changed "engine" to "shield." Like Lucas realized that R2 wouldn't be in danger if the shield was still up so he had to increase the danger. But then to save the day R2 had to fix the shield (so the ship wouldn't explode) instead of the engine so Lucas just went with having a damaged shield. Makes sense in the most contrived way possible.

Then again, Lucas put the shield generator covering the landing bay on Grievous' ship outside of the shield.

[Jim Raynor]

Hey, maybe you think you're being considerate, I dunno, but "nuhh i wrote this huge document, maybe i'll send people a summary over PM if they ask nicely" sounds like empty huffing and puffing to most people.

It's not "maybe," you fucking liar, it's I will and I have. You're getting it too, right after this post.

How can anyone be a "liar" when questioning the existence of your screed when you refuse time and time again to prove its existence and defend it publicly?

Reading comprehension, asshole. READ what he fucking accused me of doing. "Maybe I'll send people a summary over PM if they ask nicely." To which I responded that it was not a "maybe," because I have already sent that summary in numerous private messages to various people already. You know that feeling you get when you realize you're arguing with an idiot? Someone who can't process simple words or think anything through before they opening their mouths?

And since you're acting like such an ass, I'm just going to come out and say it: YOU are that one person I mentioned a few posts back, who tried debating me over PM and was completely unprepared for it. You sent me back an idiotic response commenting on scenes that you didn't remember or even bother to check up on again. And when shot down, you backed away with some lameass excuse about how you had lost what you had written...

Yet you come back in this thread talking big shit. Sit down and be quiet until you're prepared to not make an ass of yourself.

The TPM video was posted in December 2009 and it's January 2011 and you still can't bring yourself to finish your typed reply?

Reading comprehension asshat. I didn't even start this until about half a year ago. I've already said that I've hardly been focused on doing just this.

The 9 or so nitpicks you sent me and presumably him are not a 67 page document.

Reading comprehension asshat. I clearly stated in the private message to you that "This message doesn't even come close to covering all the problems I had with RLM's review."

I wish I could start shouting and swearing at my professors to get out of long assignments I don't feel like actually writing.

Well, good thing you're not my professor! You're the retard in the remedial reading class down the hall.

[Kane Starkiller]

Have you watched the actual movie? Did you bother trying to remember anything before you decided to post this trash? The Trade Federation was reluctant to follow through with the plans to invade Naboo. Palpatine offered to use his influence over the Senate to protect them from the law so that they would go through with it. The treaty was a legal loophole to get them off the hook. A legal loophole might screw up the courts, but people will STILL know that something dirty had gone down. Even with the Trade Federation escaping the law (for a while at least), Palpatine would be able to point out how corrupt and useless the government is. God, it's not that hard. Young children understood this damn plot.

As Stoklasa (and you in this post) are arguing, Palpatine should've ordered the Trade Federation to openly confess to military aggression, and not even TRY to dodge the law. Why the hell would the Trade Federation screw themselves over for him then?

Wait you actually think you made valid points above?
Trade Federation was "reluctant" to go with the plan. So that was not their plan, right? Sidious suddenly decided to invade (or planned it all along) and Trade Federation just accepts the newly hatched plan of planetary invasion and all it took was some vague promise from a shadowy guy. And that's not retarded?
So again: why the fuck did Trade Federation decide to invade the planet? It wasn't their original plan (which we don't even know) and we don't even know what was the rationalization for the new plan.
And you STILL haven't even begun to answer why Trade Federation would just agree to murder two Jedi Knights.
The point Stoklasa is making is that if Nute Gunray is so moronic to just agree to a planetary blockade, then agrees to a sudden order to murder Jedi Knights and then to a sudden order to invade an entire planet then he should have no problem to obey Sidious' order to openly invade the planet. It makes Trade Federation no more idiotic than the original plot and it works better for Sidious.

If you were paying attention, you would've realized that the Jedi were not there to "talk". Qui-Gon calls the Trade Federation "cowards" outright and states that the negotiations would be short. The Jedi were sent there to intimidate the Trade Federation into backing down, possibly with violent force. The Trade Federation even knew it, and clearly expressed their fears to Palpatine. Palpatine gave them the momentary courage to fight. Palpatine also says that they will "accelerate" their plans by landing troops on Naboo. Accelerate existing plans, not launching an attack at the spur of a moment. The Trade Federation was already in on the plan to invade the planet, probably seeing that action as profitable.

What the hell can two guys do against a blockade? What they were going to take on the fleet with their lightsabers? Is this the level of argument we can expect from you in that 70 page rebuttal? There was absolutely no indication that the two Jedi were about to fight and no logical reason to kill the Jedi especially from the perspective of Trade Federation.

Murderous obsessions are supposed to make sense now? And it doesn't matter if someone else can kill Padme, the fact was that Dooku had given his word to kill her.

Watch the damn scene. Right before the line you're nitpicking, Dooku privately tells Gunray that "We must persuade the Commerce Guild and Corporate Alliance to sign the treaty." Gunray and the Trade Federation weren't outsiders that Dooku was trying to win over right then and there; they were already involved in plotting the creation of the Confederacy. The decision had already been made. Less than a minute later, in the same scene, the various leaders sit down and declare their allegiance to the Confederacy. Without Gunray even saying anything, Dooku states "Our friends from the Trade Federation have pledged their support." Gunray, was just obsessively whining like a bitch, not seriously negotiating.

I can't believe people are willing to nitpick a few throwaway words like this. But things hold up even against the nitpicking.

Murderous obsessions are indeed supposed to make sense if you want your movie to not suck. As it was attempts on Amidala's life actually start the entire investigation then the audience is expecting for some logical tie in with the mystery. "Pledging" support is not the same as signing a treaty. Nute Gunray clearly states he is not signing any treaty unless he has her head. It's not nitpicking when the entire fucking plot doesn't make sense. Again: repeated murder attempts are what startes the entire investigation. It's fucking stupid to try and murder a public figure when you are trying to secretly build an alliance and when the public figure in question is unwittingly playing into your hands by opposing the creation of Republic army.

Nor did he HAVE political power. Read damn it, I dealt with all of this in my previous post. The same previous post that you are dealing with this time. The Separatist leaders directly questioned his ability in front of everyone. Grievous stood up for himself, but did nothing back to them. The entire meeting was about how to best protect those same Separatist leaders.

Either way, concepts such as civilian rule, who properly wields political power, etc. tend to break down during desperate total wars, especially if the war is going badly. Dooku was dead, the fleet was routed at Coruscant, the Republic's Outer Rim Sieges had been "going well," and the Separatist leaders were on the run for their very lives. Of course a strong military leader is going to start taking charge.

Talk about a dumb thing to bitch about.

"Be thankful, Viceroy, you have not found yourself in my grip . . ."
This is not how a general speaks with his civilian leader. I would not even bitch about his power if I actually knew how he got it. He just fell from the sky in episode 3 and now he is somehow in charge.

What's fucking dumb is your inability to comprehend what is said onscreen. Sidious doesn't have a "power" or a "button" or a "switch" to turn off the Separatists. He tells Anakin to "send the message to the ships of the Trade Federation: all droid units must shut down immediately." Send the message, NOT push the button. Anakin sent an official message out from a high level command post.

Furthermore, right before he was slain, Nute Gunray says "The war is over. Lord Sidious promised us peace!" The war had been going badly, the Separatist leaders probably didn't even want to fight much longer, but Gunray was under the impression that Sidious could produce an acceptable settlement. It's not unlikely that the Separatist leaders had already sent out previous messages to their military units telling them to prepare to stand down.

LOL you actually thought I was being literal when I said "button". Yes I know he had Anakin send a "message" but that's the point: how the fuck can he send a message and have the entire Separatist army shut down? What did he make a prank call or something? Why the fuck did Separatist government just accept a call from some unknown doofus?
Yes Gunray said the war was over which is yet more movie stupidity. The opening crawl said the Republic was crumbling but then Dooku was killed and then later Griveous and now the war is over? How? Where? It would be kinda nice if we saw the ultimate battle that ended the war. Was it the one over Coruscant?
And don't bother attempting to explain it away with Obi-Wans "outer Rim sieges are going well" therefore the war is over.
We never saw what happened. Why did the Separatist leadership agree to go to some out of the way vulcanic planet instead on their capitals protected by their fleet and droids?
Sidious promises his new apprentice Darth Vader will take care of them. And idiot Gunray believes him? After all the failures? He doesn't flee for his capital and have what's left of his fleet guard the planet? He puts his life in the hands of this Sidious dude on some obscure planet? Yep, pretty fucking dumb.

This is the problem with nitpicking fanboys. They unnecessarily play up problems, or even imagine problems that don't exist in the newer movies. Yet they look at the older movies with rose-tinted glasses and play up favorable things that didn't really exist or weren't present in any significant way.

"With Rebellion you actually got to know them as an actual entity that went beyond Doddona, Mon Mothma or Luke Skywalker; it had a life of its own." Yeah, like how. The Rebel Alliance was a bunch of guys who died on one ship at the beginning of ANH, one base with a number of fighter pilots at the end of ANH, one base on a frozen rock in TESB, and a bunch of warships in ROTJ. I'd like for you to explain how the Rebellion was so fleshed out, with "a life of its own."

Remember when Dodonna briefs pilots and then pilots question him and the wisdom of the mission? Or when Luke and Hand are missing in Hoth and the commander still orders to close the doors because he has his men to worry about and Luke and Han are not the center of the universe? I never said it was fleshed out particularly but that it had a life of its own, there was a sense that it exists independently of main heroes.
Look at the Trade Federation: it consists of Nute Gunray, that other dude on the bridge and droids that go "roger roger" and "does not compute". Banking Clan and Techno Union are represented by a single guy each and that's grand total we know about either organization. There is also "10,000 more starsystems" we know nothing about. An organization we know nothing about trying to separate for reasons not the tiniest bit explained in the movie other than their desire to meekly follow Sidious' every order including obeying whatever leader Sidious installs. And after those leaders (Dooku and Grivous) are dead it is presumed that the organization is dead as well and the war is over.
There is no depth to the main enemy force in the prequels and no clear motivation. Hence the movies come off and sterile and unengaging.

[StarshipTitanic]

Yet you come back in this thread talking big shit. Sit down and be quiet until you're prepared to not make an ass of yourself.

You're right, I really need to stop talking big shit and just post my 70 page thesis about The Phantom Menace.

Oh... Ohhhhh...

Reading comprehension asshat. I didn't even start this until about half a year ago. I've already said that I've hardly been focused on doing just this.

I know you're trying to go for this cool parallelism thing but you:

1) Already changed a word.
2) Haven't, to my knowledge, talked about how long you've worked on your screed.

So I'm not sure what I was supposed to read and comprehend here. Other than the fact that you've only wasted a mere six months of your life rather than twelve on your rebuttal. I mean, not that you actually did because the rebuttal doesn't exist because you won't post it.

I wish I could start shouting and swearing at my professors to get out of long assignments I don't feel like actually writing.

Well, good thing you're not my professor!

Huh? What?

How about you pick whatever one point you think I most misunderstood from your PM and make a thread about it. But pick one that's about a single scene or sequence because I'm not going to bother combing through the whole movie for stuff like Qui Gon's teaching style or whatever. Then I'll gladly argue the point with you. I'm pretty tired of replying to your impotent nerd griping, General Grievance, so this is my last message to you until that thread appears. Goodbye.

[Vympel]

"Be thankful, Viceroy, you have not found yourself in my grip . . ."
This is not how a general speaks with his civilian leader. I would not even bitch about his power if I actually knew how he got it. He just fell from the sky in episode 3 and now he is somehow in charge.

This is just inane nitpicking mate. It's plain as day in the film that General Grievous answers to Sidious, not the Viceroy. The fact that he has private correspondence direct with Sidious telling him what to do, and that he treats Gunray with contempt, makes this obvious.

I cannot believe anyone gives two shits that "Grievous fell from the sky in Episode 3 and now he is somehow in charge." Its amply established in Episode 3 that Grievous is a top Separatist military leader, it doesn't need to be explained to us how he got that job, anymore than we need to know how Moff Tarkin got his.

LOL you actually thought I was being literal when I said "button". Yes I know he had Anakin send a "message" but that's the point: how the fuck can he send a message and have the entire Separatist army shut down? What did he make a prank call or something? Why the fuck did Separatist government just accept a call from some unknown doofus?

It's a military command centre and Vader would have been provided with the relevant security codes to establish that he had authority for that order to go out, either by automatic signal or by direct communication as Sidious' agent. Complaining about this reminds me of the argument I had with my friend after AotC whereby he insisted it was an enormous problem that he didn't know how Obi-Wan knew where to land on Kamino, because apparently space traffic control giving him a landing pad location would've made gripping cinema that was essential to the progression of the story.

Yes Gunray said the war was over which is yet more movie stupidity. The opening crawl said the Republic was crumbling but then Dooku was killed and then later Griveous and now the war is over? How? Where? It would be kinda nice if we saw the ultimate battle that ended the war. Was it the one over Coruscant?

Huh? It's made abundantly clear that with Dooku dead and General Grievous on the run after Coruscant, the Separatists are losing. Gunray says the war is over because he's obviously been told by Sidious that its over. Asking for some sort of "ultimate battle that ended the war" is pretty much missing the entire point of the movie, which is that the war was a sham constructed for a specific end, and the war ceased the moment that end had been accomplished.

And don't bother attempting to explain it away with Obi-Wans "outer Rim sieges are going well" therefore the war is over. We never saw what happened. Why did the Separatist leadership agree to go to some out of the way vulcanic planet instead on their capitals protected by their fleet and droids?

Again, I thought it amply clear that they didn't make targets of themselves in their big obvious capitals protected by fleets and droids because they had no confidence that their fleets and droids would protect them.

Sidious promises his new apprentice Darth Vader will take care of them. And idiot Gunray believes him? After all the failures? He doesn't flee for his capital and have what's left of his fleet guard the planet? He puts his life in the hands of this Sidious dude on some obscure planet? Yep, pretty fucking dumb.

After all his failures? How many was that? And what choice does he have, again?

Jim's criticism that people have a tendency to unecessarily play up problems, and invent problems that simply don't exist (whilst looking at the older movies with rose-tinted glasses) isn't unjustified when looking at the above.

[StarshipTitanic]

This is just inane nitpicking mate. It's plain as day in the film that General Grievous answers to Sidious, not the Viceroy. The fact that he has private correspondence direct with Sidious telling him what to do, and that he treats Gunray with contempt, makes this obvious.

I cannot believe anyone gives two shits that "Grievous fell from the sky in Episode 3 and now he is somehow in charge." Its amply established in Episode 3 that Grievous is a top Separatist military leader, it doesn't need to be explained to us how he got that job, anymore than we need to know how Moff Tarkin got his.

I gave a small shit because the previous movie established that the Separatists were some kind of organization of cartel-sounding people with Dooku as head. Then suddenly a cyborg general is in charge when Dooku dies? Why? He's not even a Sith so what does Gunray have to fear? Have some droids shoot him to death if he stages a coup. Gunray is afraid of Sith, teenage girls, asthmatic robots. Is there anything Gunray isn't afraid of? Despite having a massive military fleet and army at his command?

The analogy to Tarkin is dumb. This is why:

The regional governors now have direct control over territories. Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battle station.

The Emperor put Tarkin in charge. That's all we needed to know. We don't know why Gunray endures these demotions and humiliations when he apparently provides the bulk of the Separatist droid forces and Sidious provides nothing and gives them nothing.

Huh? It's made abundantly clear that with Dooku dead and General Grievous on the run after Coruscant, the Separatists are losing. Gunray says the war is over because he's obviously been told by Sidious that its over. Asking for some sort of "ultimate battle that ended the war" is pretty much missing the entire point of the movie, which is that the war was a sham constructed for a specific end, and the war ceased the moment that end had been accomplished.

It's made abundantly clear? It didn't seem like the Separatists were losing when they launched an offensive against the Wookiees. Then the Republic or the Jedi sent Yoda, the most important Jedi in the galaxy, to oversee the defense. Sounds like the Separatists were still a credible threat.

And while we and Sidious may understand the point of the war, Gunray didn't. Why should he believe Sidious when he's told that the war is over? In ROTJ, the same character at least bothered to show Luke the Rebel fleet getting surrounded and superlasered.

Again, I thought it amply clear that they didn't make targets of themselves in their big obvious capitals protected by fleets and droids because they had no confidence that their fleets and droids would protect them.

What is your definition of "abundantly clear" and "amply clear", please? Because if either definition involves making convenient assumptions because the plot won't work if the assumptions are wrong, then your definition is wrong.

If the Separatist leaders can't rely on their droids and fleets to protect a dozen or so people, how can they rely on their droids and fleets to win a galactic war? Why bother fighting the war in the first place if they have zero confidence in their military?

And why did the Separatists stay together if they felt they were in such peril? According to prequel logic, it's more advantageous to split up when facing overwhelming odds. If Gunray went one place and the rest of the Separatist junta went somewhere else, then this could have happened:

Darth Vader: All Separatist units shut down and surrender to the Empire!
Gunray: On whose orders?
Vader: Um...
Gunray: Where is the rest of the Separatist leadership?
Vader: Uh, they can't come to the holophone right now.
Gunray: I've been betrayed! All robots, ignore that order and all orders from the Sith from now on! The war continues!

[Junghalli]

It's a military command centre and Vader would have been provided with the relevant security codes to establish that he had authority for that order to go out, either by automatic signal or by direct communication as Sidious' agent. Complaining about this reminds me of the argument I had with my friend after AotC whereby he insisted it was an enormous problem that he didn't know how Obi-Wan knew where to land on Kamino, because apparently space traffic control giving him a landing pad location would've made gripping cinema that was essential to the progression of the story.

I dislike it cause it emphasizes how the Seperatists are basically nothing but a plot device. They exist to do nothing but fulfill Palpatine's plans and then when he's done with them they're just conveniently disposed of. I suppose this is literally true in the story, but it would have been cool if these guys had more dimension than "slimy corporate guy" and "random cyborg with weird accent and cough", and to me the whole idea that they're just conveniently totally finished at the end of the film just drives home their one-dimensional plot device nature. There wasn't even any real need for it to be so pat: the important thing is at the end of the film we understand the Seperatists are doomed, you don't need Darth Vader to personally kill their entire leadership to accomplish that.

I think the biggest failing really is how they're basically presented as unsympathetic slimy villains. Their story arch would work much better as a tragedy; well-meaning (or at least somewhat sympathetic and understandable) people manipulated by Palpatine to further his plans and then betrayed and disposed of once they were no longer useful to them. But I guess Lucas wanted the movies to hearken back to the original Star Wars with its uncomplicated black and white adventure story morality with the Jedi as the good guys, even though he was telling a story that naturally lent itself to a lot of grey.

This is all quite YMMV of course, but so is most artistic criticism.

[Stofsk]

I agree with Jung; it would have been interesting if the Separatists were more layered villains, with legitimate or at least plausible grievances. Basically something that makes the Separatist movement make sense (why are there thousands of systems willing to go to war with the Republic by seceding? Why are the big players in it corporate bodies like the Trade Federation or Banking Clan, and not political blocs which represent the will of hundreds of billions of people?), and may even be tragic how they're ultimately just pawns to be used to an end.

I guess when RotS's title crawl goes on about how 'there are heroes on each side' we don't have to see that, just accept it because we've been told it.

[Vympel]

I gave a small shit because the previous movie established that the Separatists were some kind of organization of cartel-sounding people with Dooku as head.

No, that was your impression of the previous movie. It was also wrong. There's nothing in AotC that should lead anyone to reasonably conclude that the Separatists would have no generals like Grievous. The above is something you totally made up in your head and is completely unjustified- the war only began at the end of the movie.

Then suddenly a cyborg general is in charge when Dooku dies? Why? He's not even a Sith so what does Gunray have to fear? Have some droids shoot him to death if he stages a coup. Gunray is afraid of Sith, teenage girls, asthmatic robots. Is there anything Gunray isn't afraid of? Despite having a massive military fleet and army at his command?

What are you talking about? General Grievous is obviously a military leader, Gunray is just a political patsy. He has no demonstrated ability in military matters, nor is there any reason to think Grievous holds any authority in political matters.

The analogy to Tarkin is dumb. This is why:

The Emperor put Tarkin in charge. That's all we needed to know. We don't know why Gunray endures these demotions and humiliations when he apparently provides the bulk of the Separatist droid forces and Sidious provides nothing and gives them nothing.

The Emperor also put Grievous in charge. Why do we need to know more about what some dipshit like Viceroy Gunray thinks, apart from the fact, as is clearly telegraphed in the movie, that he's obviously unhappy about their situation now that Dooku is dead (as he stated on Utapau)? How is this a big deal? And your reasoning is silly- if Tarkin hadn't said what you quoted, only the dumbest nincompoop wouldn't be able to figure out that Tarkin is the boss- he acts like the boss, people treat him like the boss, therefore, he is the boss. It doesn't need to be spelled out by looking over his contract of employment, and we do not need to know why he's the boss and not someone else.

It's made abundantly clear? It didn't seem like the Separatists were losing when they launched an offensive against the Wookiees. Then the Republic or the Jedi sent Yoda, the most important Jedi in the galaxy, to oversee the defense. Sounds like the Separatists were still a credible threat.

The Nazis also launched the Ardennes Offensive in 1944. It didn't mean their defeat wasn't mere months away and quite inevitable.

And while we and Sidious may understand the point of the war, Gunray didn't. Why should he believe Sidious when he's told that the war is over? In ROTJ, the same character at least bothered to show Luke the Rebel fleet getting surrounded and superlasered.

Oh for - who cares about Nute Gunray?!. You don't think he was apprised of what the war situation (most obviously, the success of Order 66) was off screen? Why the hell do we need to waste fucking screentime to see this? I must've missed how RotS was Nute Gunray's story! Can you listen to yourself? Nute Gunray = Luke Skywalker now I literally cannot imagine a bigger exercise in boredom than seeing just why Nute Gunray in his last moments declares the war over. He says so, he's in a position to know, that's good enough for me.

What is your definition of "abundantly clear" and "amply clear", please? Because if either definition involves making convenient assumptions because the plot won't work if the assumptions are wrong, then your definition is wrong.

If the Separatist leaders can't rely on their droids and fleets to protect a dozen or so people, how can they rely on their droids and fleets to win a galactic war? Why bother fighting the war in the first place if they have zero confidence in their military?

It's called a reasonable inference based on the facts. Assuming that they do have fleets and droids which could protect them on capital planets much better than a secure location where they can't be found is simply your own assumption. It holds no particular validity that makes it the default. It's also silly to assume that the Separatist leaders are afraid of an army coming to pull them out of a rabbit hole as opposed to Jedi infiltrators or other assassins coming to find them and kill them quietly.

And why did the Separatists stay together if they felt they were in such peril? According to prequel logic, it's more advantageous to split up when facing overwhelming odds.

Because that's not what they were told to do by Grievous, who was acting on orders from Sidious.

Quick, why did Leia and Co. lead the Millennium Falcon straight to Yavin IV when escaping the Death Star, as opposed to landing at any other spaceport in the galaxy, ditching the homing beacon, then going to Yavin 4 and launching an attack on it at their leisure later? Worst movie ever, right? There's some shit you've just got to let go. This nitpicky "spell every single plot point out in excruciating detail" bullshit complaining about totally minor characters that no one is supposed to care about doesn't even rate a mention.

[Junghalli]

Quick, why did Leia and Co. lead the Millennium Falcon straight to Yavin IV when escaping the Death Star, as opposed to landing at any other spaceport in the galaxy, ditching the homing beacon, then going to Yavin 4 and launching an attack on it at their leisure later? Worst movie ever, right?

Actually I always did kind of wonder about that.

I think, as has been said before, the nitpicks with the prequels are really a symptom rather than the problem. I think maybe part of the reason there's so much nitpicking about the Seperatists is we never really get a very good sense of who they are besides the designated villains and Palpatine's patsies, or why we should care about their defeat or victory. With the OT we have a pretty good feel for what the Empire and the Rebellion represent and what their goals are: the Empire is an oppressive and despotic government and the Rebellion are people who don't like their heavy-handed rule. We also have a pretty good sense of what the stakes are: if the Rebellion loses the Empire keeps doing the generally nasty stuff that oppressive dictatorships do, like the mass murder we saw them commit in ANH. With the Seperatists... OK, who exactly are these people? Why do they want to leave the Republic? They seem like the villains, so presumably them getting to leave the Republic would be bad, but why? Why should I care whether they win or lose? The film seems to expect us to cheer for the Republic and boo the Seperatists, given how all the protagonists are on the side of the former while the latter is all made up of slimy businessmen (who were the antagonist in the first movie) and Sith and scary robo-suit guys, but we're not given any real compelling reason to do so. I think when people nitpick so much about how they don't make sense, maybe what they're sort of flailing around the edges of is these guys have no depth of character, they're just plot devices with cardboard cut-out personalities and motivations.

I imagine some of it may be addressed in the crawl (I totally forgot what it says), but that's not something a story should rely on for important dramatic elements. Those should be shown in the story, not delivered in an infodump.

[Bounty]

Quick, why did Leia and Co. lead the Millennium Falcon straight to Yavin IV when escaping the Death Star, as opposed to landing at any other spaceport in the galaxy, ditching the homing beacon, then going to Yavin 4 and launching an attack on it at their leisure later? Worst movie ever, right?

They needed to get the plans to the Rebellion ASAP - which is what 2/3ds of the movie is about, from the opening scene onward - and only Han talked about having a vague suspicion that the Empire hadn't tried very hard to shoot the Falcon down.

Notice that both of these elements are explicitly said by the characters and didn't come from a shitty tie-in novel published in 1986.

[StarshipTitanic]

No, that was your impression of the previous movie. It was also wrong. There's nothing in AotC that should lead anyone to reasonably conclude that the Separatists would have no generals like Grievous. The above is something you totally made up in your head and is completely unjustified- the war only began at the end of the movie.

Please show me where I said that seeing the Separatist leadership implied they had no generals. I know you have to creatively interpret and make stuff up for the prequels to make sense, but don't you do it with what I've said. The last I saw before Revenge of the Sith, the fleshy people were in charge of the robots. Then right at the beginning of ROTS, there's a robot-style person in charge of the whole Separatist movement? Whatever.

What are you talking about? General Grievous is obviously a military leader, Gunray is just a political patsy. He has no demonstrated ability in military matters, nor is there any reason to think Grievous holds any authority in political matters.

Grievous has about the same military ability as Gunray. In TPM, Gunray loses a key hostage to a pair of Jedi. In ROTS, Grievous loses a key hostage to a pair of Jedi. In TPM, Gunray loses a critical battle in his scheme to win control over Naboo. In ROTS, Grievous loses a critical battle in his scheme to win control over Coruscant/the Republic/the galaxy.

No reason to think Grievous holds political authority? He orders the Separatists to go to the dumbest hiding place in the galaxy and then talks to Sidious. He threatens Gunray with violence. The Jedi talk about having to kill Grievous to end the war, not "capture the Separatist leadership" or whatever. He's amply obviously clearly in charge for anyone paying attention to what the movie actually gives us.

The Emperor also put Grievous in charge. Why do we need to know more about what some dipshit like Viceroy Gunray thinks, apart from the fact, as is clearly telegraphed in the movie, that he's obviously unhappy about their situation now that Dooku is dead (as he stated on Utapau)? How is this a big deal? And your reasoning is silly- if Tarkin hadn't said what you quoted, only the dumbest nincompoop wouldn't be able to figure out that Tarkin is the boss- he acts like the boss, people treat him like the boss, therefore, he is the boss. It doesn't need to be spelled out by looking over his contract of employment, and we do not need to know why he's the boss and not someone else.

A New Hope is the fresh start of a new story (or new part of the story). In Attack of the Clones, we know it goes Dooku-Separatist leadership. Then in ROTS we're told it goes Dooku-Grievous-Separatist leadership. Why? Oh because it was "clearly telegraphed" and "obviously" and throw in "amply" there, too, even though you can't point to any reasons why Grievous is less of a dipshit than Gunray. When did the emperor put Grievous in charge? Or was it Dooku? Why? Show me where.

The Nazis also launched the Ardennes Offensive in 1944. It didn't mean their defeat wasn't mere months away and quite inevitable.

Oh well if we can draw irrelevant World War II analogies then I'm going to make one to disprove yours:

In 1940, the Nazis made an aerial attack against the capital of their mortal enemy and it still took another 4-5 years for the Allies to win the war. So I guess you're wrong now, right? Amply obviously clearly?

It's called a reasonable inference based on the facts. Assuming that they do have fleets and droids which could protect them on capital planets much better than a secure location where they can't be found is simply your own assumption.

You're right, the movie is idiotic because it depends on the Separatist military being either incompetent or impotent but we can't say for sure which it is. I amply assume you obviously telegraphed this implication clearly?

Because that's not what they were told to do by Grievous, who was acting on orders from Sidious.

Quick, why did Leia and Co. lead the Millennium Falcon straight to Yavin IV when escaping the Death Star, as opposed to landing at any other spaceport in the galaxy, ditching the homing beacon, then going to Yavin 4 and launching an attack on it at their leisure later? Worst movie ever, right? There's some shit you've just got to let go. This nitpicky "spell every single plot point out in excruciating detail" bullshit complaining about totally minor characters that no one is supposed to care about doesn't even rate a mention.

Christ, did you even watch the movie? Leia says the escape was too easy and Han dismisses her and her suspicion that they're being tracked. They were tracked because Han was cocky and he didn't give a shit about the Rebellion. And then, importantly, we have Tarkin and Vader talk about the tracking beacon. That way when the Death Star showed up at Yavin, we don't have to wonder "So was there a tracking beacon? I guess there was." for no reason. You see, we believe that Tarkin and the Empire are more credible villains when they actually trick the protagonists into doing what they want.

But in AOTC, we have Gunray whining for Padme to die when her work holding up military legislation in the Senate gave the Separatists the biggest chance of success.

Quick, why did Leia and Co. lead the Millennium Falcon straight to Yavin IV when escaping the Death Star, as opposed to landing at any other spaceport in the galaxy, ditching the homing beacon, then going to Yavin 4 and launching an attack on it at their leisure later? Worst movie ever, right?

They needed to get the plans to the Rebellion ASAP - which is what 2/3ds of the movie is about, from the opening scene onward - and only Han (note: you mean Leia here) talked about having a vague suspicion that the Empire hadn't tried very hard to shoot the Falcon down.

Notice that both of these elements are explicitly said by the characters and didn't come from a shitty tie-in novel published in 1986.

It's pretty sad that the prequels have taught people that the most logical thing to do in a crisis is to fuck off on an adventure irrelevant to the conclusion of the plot. And that watching Han and Chewbacca rummage around for a beacon would have made for a more interesting, sensible movie. Maybe a pit droid could have taunted Chewie until he punched its nose in! That would have been awesome!!!

[Stofsk]

Quick, why did Leia and Co. lead the Millennium Falcon straight to Yavin IV when escaping the Death Star, as opposed to landing at any other spaceport in the galaxy, ditching the homing beacon, then going to Yavin 4 and launching an attack on it at their leisure later? Worst movie ever, right?

They needed to get the plans to the Rebellion ASAP - which is what 2/3ds of the movie is about, from the opening scene onward - and only Han talked about having a vague suspicion that the Empire hadn't tried very hard to shoot the Falcon down.

You mean Leia, not Han. Han was boasting how they couldn't be tracking his ship. He overruled Leia because he was arrogant and in charge of the ship. Leia was the one who said the Empire let them go too easily and were tracking them.

[Vympel]

They needed to get the plans to the Rebellion ASAP - which is what 2/3ds of the movie is about, from the opening scene onward - and only Han talked about having a vague suspicion that the Empire hadn't tried very hard to shoot the Falcon down.

Notice that both of these elements are explicitly said by the characters and didn't come from a shitty tie-in novel published in 1986.

What the hell are you talking about? What, anywhere in the movie, establishes that they needed to lead the Death Star right to them ASAP? As has been stated, Leia clearly knew the Empire was tracking them, she was absolutely right, and yet her reaction to Han's idiotic and baseless "not this ship sister" is acquiescence! She's an idiot. ANH is the worst movie ever.

[Vympel]

Please show me where I said that seeing the Separatist leadership implied they had no generals. I know you have to creatively interpret and make stuff up for the prequels to make sense, but don't you do it with what I've said. The last I saw before Revenge of the Sith, the fleshy people were in charge of the robots. Then right at the beginning of ROTS, there's a robot-style person in charge of the whole Separatist movement? Whatever.

Easy:- "I gave a small shit because the previous movie established that the Separatists were some kind of organization of cartel-sounding people with Dooku as head."

How am I supposed to interpret this, as opposed to "what I saw of their leadership before the war even started should set in stone their leadership in all matters in RotS"?

It's a bloody stupid, petty, and baseless complaint, sorry. And you go on to repeat it below!

Grievous has about the same military ability as Gunray. In TPM, Gunray loses a key hostage to a pair of Jedi. In ROTS, Grievous loses a key hostage to a pair of Jedi. In TPM, Gunray loses a critical battle in his scheme to win control over Naboo. In ROTS, Grievous loses a critical battle in his scheme to win control over Coruscant/the Republic/the galaxy.

LOL of course! So that must mean that Gunray should be a military leader, right? I mean, his title is Viceroy, we've never seen him actually command anything (your inability to tell the difference between him merely presiding over an invasion and actually commanding it aside), and General Grievous' actual title is General, but why pay attention to obvious things like rank and what they do in the movie (Grievous = commands Separatist fleet, has a lightsabre collection, can face Jedi in single combat / Gunray = does nothing, can't fight for shit) when there's whiny, petty complaining about minor characters to be done, yeah?

No reason to think Grievous holds political authority? He orders the Separatists to go to the dumbest hiding place in the galaxy and then talks to Sidious. He threatens Gunray with violence. The Jedi talk about having to kill Grievous to end the war, not "capture the Separatist leadership" or whatever. He's amply obviously clearly in charge for anyone paying attention to what the movie actually gives us.

According to you then a Secret Service agent carting off the President of the USA to a secure location must have political authority, right? The Jedi talk of having to kill Grievous to end the war because he's the commander of the Separatist military, not because he leads the Separatist movement.

A New Hope is the fresh start of a new story (or new part of the story). In Attack of the Clones, we know it goes Dooku-Separatist leadership. Then in ROTS we're told it goes Dooku-Grievous-Separatist leadership. Why? Oh because it was "clearly telegraphed" and "obviously" and throw in "amply" there, too, even though you can't point to any reasons why Grievous is less of a dipshit than Gunray. When did the emperor put Grievous in charge? Or was it Dooku? Why? Show me where.

Your totally made-up-in-your-head impression of the Separatist leadership from AotC, before the war even began, has absolutely no bearing on the situation in RotS, no matter how much you insist it does. Again - why do we need to know when/where the Emperor put Grievous in charge?

Oh well if we can draw irrelevant World War II analogies then I'm going to make one to disprove yours:

In 1940, the Nazis made an aerial attack against the capital of their mortal enemy and it still took another 4-5 years for the Allies to win the war. So I guess you're wrong now, right? Amply obviously clearly?

That's an idiotic analogy. Anyone who paid attention in the movie can see for themselves that the Separatists obviously aren't winning. They lost that battle, their Sith Lord is dead, their General is in hiding, and you think their cause is in the asendnance? Huh? Simply because there was still fighting?

You're right, the movie is idiotic because it depends on the Separatist military being either incompetent or impotent but we can't say for sure which it is. I amply assume you obviously telegraphed this implication clearly?

Uhuh, so now the movie's stupid because the Separatist military can't protect its leaders, right (and you of course, gloss right over my main point, i.e. Jedi/ assassins finding them, as opposed to a military assault)? Because of course, if you have a military in a movie, then that must mean said military must be at an arbitrary level of strength compared to its opponent, no matter what, or else the movie is stupid.

Christ, did you even watch the movie? Leia says the escape was too easy and Han dismisses her and her suspicion that they're being tracked. They were tracked because Han was cocky and he didn't give a shit about the Rebellion.

That means both Leia and Han are fucking morons of the highest order. Rose-tinted glasses, anyone?

And then, importantly, we have Tarkin and Vader talk about the tracking beacon. That way when the Death Star showed up at Yavin, we don't have to wonder "So was there a tracking beacon? I guess there was." for no reason. You see, we believe that Tarkin and the Empire are more credible villains when they actually trick the protagonists into doing what they want.

No they didn't, their plan succeeded because Han was an arrogant dimwit and Leia was a submissive imbecile.

It's pretty sad that the prequels have taught people that the most logical thing to do in a crisis is to fuck off on an adventure irrelevant to the conclusion of the plot. And that watching Han and Chewbacca rummage around for a beacon would have made for a more interesting, sensible movie. Maybe a pit droid could have taunted Chewie until he punched its nose in! That would have been awesome!!!

So let me get this straight - knowing the particulars of how and when General Grievous got his job is serious business that requires valuable screentime, but egregious errors like leading the Death Star right to your planet so the Rebellion can be destroyed if your attack fails (which has to happen ASAP! because ... ummm ... because!) can just be handwaved away because otherwise you'd be "fucking off to an adventure irrelevant to the conclusion of the plot".

Again - do you even listen to yourself?

[Kane Starkiller]

Why exactly is stopping to search for the tracking device the right choice? Sure we the audience knew it was there for sure but as far as the Falcon crew was concerned it was only Leia's inference based on how easy their escape seemed to her. Suppose they stopped and started searching for the device, Empire realizes they stopped moving decides their jig is up intercept them, execute them and decide to search for the base the hard way? How many more planets would've been blown up?
The same if they made a stop on a starbase somewhere to switch ships, Empire agents could've intercepted them and detain them.
Even if they knew for a fact that Empire installed a tracking device somewhere on the ship it's not clear that going on a detour was the right choice, as it was they had only Leia's suspicion.

In no way is this comparable to Trade Federation's decision to follow a shadowy guy they knew nothing about and obey his every command even when it made absolutely no sense to them.

According to you then a Secret Service agent carting off the President of the USA to a secure location must have political authority, right? The Jedi talk of having to kill Grievous to end the war because he's the commander of the Separatist military, not because he leads the Separatist movement.

No comparison since agents don't threaten the president and in case a battle goes badly for US they don't send the executive branch to Kwajalein atoll but to some bunker in Washington or whatever. And the president doesn't sit at Kwajalein waiting for communicaton from some shadowy guy telling him how his apprentice will "take care of him."

Your totally made-up-in-your-head impression of the Separatist leadership from AotC, before the war even began, has absolutely no bearing on the situation in RotS, no matter how much you insist it does. Again - why do we need to know when/where the Emperor put Grievous in charge?

Griveous shouldn't even be in film. Instead of fleshing out the Separatist Lucas keeps dumping more leaders onto us. Is there nothing more to the Separatists other than obeying every command from Sidious without question?

That's an idiotic analogy. Anyone who paid attention in the movie can see for themselves that the Separatists obviously aren't winning. They lost that battle, their Sith Lord is dead, their General is in hiding, and you think their cause is in the asendnance? Huh? Simply because there was still fighting?

Republic managed to hold on to their capital then two of their leaders were assassinated so they are "obviously" not winning? Really? And by the way "not winning" and war is over aren't the same things.

Uhuh, so now the movie's stupid because the Separatist military can't protect its leaders, right (and you of course, gloss right over my main point, i.e. Jedi/ assassins finding them, as opposed to a military assault)? Because of course, if you have a military in a movie, then that must mean said military must be at an arbitrary level of strength compared to its opponent, no matter what, or else the movie is stupid.

It should be roughly equal within order of magnitude if the war lasted for 3 years right? And Separatists thought they could win? Oh but I forget they consisted of 4 dudes and couple of billion "roger roger" slapstic-comedy droids and their only function in life was to serve unquestioningly to lord Sidious. How? Why? Who cares.

[Vympel]

Why exactly is stopping to search for the tracking device the right choice? Sure we the audience knew it was there for sure but as far as the Falcon crew was concerned it was only Leia's inference based on how easy their escape seemed to her. Suppose they stopped and started searching for the device, Empire realizes they stopped moving decides their jig is up intercept them, execute them and decide to search for the base the hard way? How many more planets would've been blown up?

The same if they made a stop on a starbase somewhere to switch ships, Empire agents could've intercepted them and detain them.
Even if they knew for a fact that Empire installed a tracking device somewhere on the ship it's not clear that going on a detour was the right choice, as it was they had only Leia's suspicion.

You are now engaging in the heinous, unforgiveable crime of assuming things in the movie that aren't stated. My point is made- people cut the OT a break because they're simply better movies and treat them with kid-gloves, but because the PT simply isn't very good, they will exaggerate every single plot question mark out of all proportion and refuse to infer anything in the plot or the character's decisions/ motivations that hasn't been spelled out to them in crayon. Its clearly biased fanboy behavior.

That said, its simply bad writing - the appropriate thing to do (there are a few ways to attack it) would be to not have any of the heroes address the possibility of being tracked at all - only have Vader and Tarkin talk about it.

No comparison since agents don't threaten the president and in case a battle goes badly for US they don't send the executive branch to Kwajalein atoll but to some bunker in Washington or whatever. And the president doesn't sit at Kwajalein waiting for communicaton from some shadowy guy telling him how his apprentice will "take care of him."

*sigh* An analogy doesn't have to be exact in every single particular. In any event, Gunray is not Grievous' superior, Grievous is not Gunray's superior. They both do Sidious' bidding. They both give lip to each other.

Griveous shouldn't even be in film. Instead of fleshing out the Separatist Lucas keeps dumping more leaders onto us. Is there nothing more to the Separatists other than obeying every command from Sidious without question?

The Separatists are boring and I personally don't think fleshing them out would've made a better movie.

Republic managed to hold on to their capital then two of their leaders were assassinated so they are "obviously" not winning? Really? And by the way "not winning" and war is over aren't the same things.

The war was over because Sidious wanted it that way, since he made up the whole thing from the start.

It should be roughly equal within order of magnitude if the war lasted for 3 years right? And Separatists thought they could win?

And? You're talking as if forces that are within an order of magnitude can't ever start losing. What, was the war going to go on forever?

[Stofsk]

That said, its simply bad writing - the appropriate thing to do (there are a few ways to attack it) would be to not have any of the heroes address the possibility of being tracked at all - only have Vader and Tarkin talk about it.

Your point that people tend to view the OT with rose-tinted glasses and ignore some of the preposterous plot developments is well made, though I'm not sure this specific example is bad writing. Leia didn't know for sure that they were being tracked, she inferred it from what, to her eyes, seemed like an easy escape. Han, who was manning a turret, probably felt high off the adrenaline and dismissed her concern as being overly cautious - this scene does strengthen our appraisal of each character. Leia isn't a breathless damsel but someone who'll point out where the hero has made a mistake, and Han isn't flawless either because his arrogance is what allows the Empire to succeed in tracking them. If the writing was changed as you suggest, by not having the heroes even discuss the possibility that the Empire let them go because they put a tracking device on their ship, then they would all come across as fucking idiots too brainless to think they might have been outfoxed by a pretty basic strategy. As it stands, the writing makes it clear that the characters made a mistake, but did it in a way that seems natural. Han being cocksure is a part of his character, so it makes sense that he'll reject Leia's opinion that they're somehow being tracked.

There are better examples of stupid writing in the OT, like why did Rogue Squadron attack the AT-ATs head-on rather than attack from the sides, and only from the sides, so that they wouldn't be hit by any of the guns. On the other hand, that too could be explained as Luke being inexperienced or even reckless, which is what Yoda calls him when he goes to Dagobah.

So fuck you I like my rose-tinted glasses just fine thank you very much.

[Vympel]

Your point that people tend to view the OT with rose-tinted glasses and ignore some of the preposterous plot developments is well made, though I'm not sure this specific example is bad writing. Leia didn't know for sure that they were being tracked, she inferred it from what, to her eyes, seemed like an easy escape. Han, who was manning a turret, probably felt high off the adrenaline and dismissed her concern as being overly cautious - this scene does strengthen our appraisal of each character. Leia isn't a breathless damsel but someone who'll point out where the hero has made a mistake, and Han isn't flawless either because his arrogance is what allows the Empire to succeed in tracking them. If the writing was changed as you suggest, by not having the heroes even discuss the possibility that the Empire let them go because they put a tracking device on their ship, then they would all come across as fucking idiots too brainless to think they might have been outfoxed by a pretty basic strategy. As it stands, the writing makes it clear that the characters made a mistake, but did it in a way that seems natural. Han being cocksure is a part of his character, so it makes sense that he'll reject Leia's opinion that they're somehow being tracked.

I can't agree. Leia stated they were being tracked with complete confidence. It stretches credibility to breaking point that with the life of the Rebellion at stake, she would simply not press the issue at all because Han said "not this ship, sister" - an incredibly stupid non-argument which doesn't make a smidgen of sense. What does that even mean? Is the Millennium Falcon singularly immune to having a homing beacon placed aboard? Is it magic? Seriously, if you were her, would you accept that ... "argument"? I'd call him the biggest fucking idiot in the galaxy.

Them simply not considering the possibility in all the excitement doesn't make them fucking idiots, it merely makes them fallible (in a less obviously moronic way, as opposed to being aware of the clear risk and simply ignoring it when its raised) and surprised by the villains - I highly doubt anyone watching the movie at first instance would think "ahah, you're being tracked!" until Tarkin and Vader explicitly said so. And effective villains make for a good story, which is one of the reasons the prequels fail so much in comparison.

So fuck you I like my rose-tinted glasses just fine thank you very much.

I like em too EDIT: my real problem is that there are many substantive criticisms you can make about the prequels and all the ways they're mediocre, but most of the nitpicks are just inane.