Would you trash the EU?

[Robert Walper]

After seeing the mockery of what's supposed to be the Tantive IV in ROTS, I fully believe that the "Great Weapon" is also intended to be the Death Star.

SoD stands. Tantive IV - ROTS - is not the same ship as Tantive IV - ANH. Likewise with ROTS Death Star and ANH Death Star.

Oh, I realize that it can be reconciled like that. I just find it a pity that it's necessary to do so since it obviously represents a departure from George Lucas' intent.

So what's the higher source of facts here? Lucas's intentions or SoD? I daresay if anyone asked him, he'd assert that is the Tantive IV in ROTS, and it's the same ship in ANH.

[Robert Walper]

Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack.

The construction of another DS is of very little relavance to ESB thus it didn't have to be encluded.

So are you going to counter or go "Well I have nothing but that doesn't mean I'm wrong!"

The latter, duh.
Your position is that the DSII had to be constructed between ESB and ROTJ because they didn't mention it in the ESB scrawl.

However I remain unconvinced that there would be any need to mention it in the scrawl, because it bears no relavance to the ESB plot at all.

My thoughts exactly. Why mention something that will have no bearing on the film whatsoever?

[Glimmervoid]

No, ROTS illustrates nicely. Like that it takes a much more reasonable time frame of close to twenty years to build one.

You mean the DS that isn't the DS? Walper, look at the comparison images of the ROTS DS with the ANH DS. They're radically different in terms of major structural elements.

I've seen the film three times and haven't seen anything that suggests that is not the DS. But feel free to point me in the direction of this comparison analysis...

At some unknown time after the deaths of the Separatist Council and Lord Vader's recuperation as a cyborg, an incomplete battle station fell into the hands of the Galactic Empire. Emperor Palpatine, Lord Vader and Moff Tarkin inspected this prize [Revenge of the Sith]. This may have been the unfinished remains of the Great Weapon. The framework is almost exactly spherical (whereas Tarkin's later, operational Death Star was slightly oblate) and the superlaser dish is proportionally smaller. Therefore they are not the same object. The earlier device must have remained secret. In their ignorance, Princess Leia and the Rebel Alliance wrongly believed that the Death Star was a novelty.

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/ds/ruction.html#cgw


You wanted proof there it is. Go to the site for more detail.

[Superman]

It's funny though, the average viewer is just going to assume it's the DS.

[Glimmervoid]

It's funny though, the average viewer is just going to assume it's the DS.

It may have been an accident but under SOD this is the only explanation(short of them taking it apart and putting it back together again and in that case that accounts for our time difference).

But it could be GL giving a nod to the EU last retaining the starwars story for the less obsessed fans.

A good explanation that I think would satisfied everyone is that upon finding the captured “grate weapon” they took it apart to work out how it works. Then having found this out and able to make more they used the materials from this grate weapon to make the deathstar 1.

Also even if the deathstar 2 started as soon as the first is destroyed that is still a much shorter time for a much larger station.

[Robert Walper]

It's funny though, the average viewer is just going to assume it's the DS.

I haven't figured out what proves the DS in the ROTS scene is different from the one in ANH. The outer shell isn't complete yet, therefore there's plenty of room for slight alterations (if any required).

[Mange]

After seeing the mockery of what's supposed to be the Tantive IV in ROTS, I fully believe that the "Great Weapon" is also intended to be the Death Star.

Yes, that's my opinion also. I don't understand how they failed to see the mistakes.

[Illuminatus Primus]

After seeing the mockery of what's supposed to be the Tantive IV in ROTS, I fully believe that the "Great Weapon" is also intended to be the Death Star.

SoD stands. Tantive IV - ROTS - is not the same ship as Tantive IV - ANH. Likewise with ROTS Death Star and ANH Death Star.

Oh, I realize that it can be reconciled like that. I just find it a pity that it's necessary to do so since it obviously represents a departure from George Lucas' intent.

That's Lucas' problem, not mine.

SoD stands. Tantive IV - ROTS - is not the same ship as Tantive IV - ANH. Likewise with ROTS Death Star and ANH Death Star.

Oh, I realize that it can be reconciled like that. I just find it a pity that it's necessary to do so since it obviously represents a departure from George Lucas' intent.

So what's the higher source of facts here? Lucas's intentions or SoD? I daresay if anyone asked him, he'd assert that is the Tantive IV in ROTS, and it's the same ship in ANH.

The visual facts are the visual facts. George Lucas cannot "make" Luke's lightsaber in TESB green by willing it anymore than anyone else can. If he wishes to alter the physical evidence of the film at a later date; that is another story. And if GL felt that he could simply will things into canon, why would he feel the need to alter the physical reality presented by the films?

The actual, objective, empirical visual content cannot be overridden.

After seeing the mockery of what's supposed to be the Tantive IV in ROTS, I fully believe that the "Great Weapon" is also intended to be the Death Star.

SoD stands. Tantive IV - ROTS - is not the same ship as Tantive IV - ANH.

Um, everything pretty much states that it is.

So what? It is geometrically impossible bearing a near-total dismantlement and rebuild of the vessel, in which case it really isn't the same ship, is it? The proportions themselves are wrong; this means the engines are shaped correctly but the volume is wrong. I don't see how you can simply swop out some parts and fix that. They're visibly not the same.

[Xuenay]

I'm sorta divided, too. There's a bunch of good stuff in the EU, but on the other hand... bleh.

Even if one threw out the other EU material, I'd still like to keep the WEG stuff, though. Think what you will of its accuracy, I liked the atmosphere in those books - somehow they just seemed to convey the spirit of the films better than most of the EU novels. Dunno why.

[Glimmervoid]

It's funny though, the average viewer is just going to assume it's the DS.

I haven't figured out what proves the DS in the ROTS scene is different from the one in ANH. The outer shell isn't complete yet, therefore there's plenty of room for slight alterations (if any required).

A slight alteration dose not cover radically changing its shape or moving the "dish" by a large amount.

[Robert Walper]

It's funny though, the average viewer is just going to assume it's the DS.

I haven't figured out what proves the DS in the ROTS scene is different from the one in ANH. The outer shell isn't complete yet, therefore there's plenty of room for slight alterations (if any required).

A slight alteration dose not cover radically changing its shape or moving the "dish" by a large amount.

Again, what's so radically different between the DS in ROTS and the one in ANH that cannot be easily attributed to the outer shell not yet being in place?

[Illuminatus Primus]

It's funny though, the average viewer is just going to assume it's the DS.

I haven't figured out what proves the DS in the ROTS scene is different from the one in ANH. The outer shell isn't complete yet, therefore there's plenty of room for slight alterations (if any required).

That's not enough; the entire overall geometry of the physical shell is wrong - spheroid versus oblate. The superlaser dish's diameter is too small and the dish is too close to the equator.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Again, what's so radically different between the DS in ROTS and the one in ANH that cannot be easily attributed to the outer shell not yet being in place?

The structural members are SPHERICAL, you imbecile. The ANH Death Star is OBLATE. The dish is too small and in the wrong place.

Adding more metal on top and a layer of paint is not going to change the basic shape of the whole fucking station and enlarge and raise the superlaser dish. They are not the same station.

[Tsyroc]

I dislike a great deal of the EU, mainly because of it's force wanking and it's ever increasing array of WMD's but there is quite a bit I like. A few stories here and there which fill in gaps otherwise I'd rather just stick with the novelizations, the ICS, visual dictionaries and the IStW if I could.

If I had to take all the EU stuff or only go with what is on film I'd go solely with what is on film.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I'd only say yes if you had continuity editors with balls, a set of technical editors on the payroll too, and the initial source and background material (as created by WEG here) was written up with the contribution and editing of people like Dr. Saxton, Publius, Mike, Wayne, Marina, etc.

[VT-16]

represents a departure from George Lucas' intent.

Lucas´ intent is to link with the OT, he seemed almost obsessed with it in this film. Especially showing the coming darkness with the birth of the Empire and it´s designs.

Whether he wanted the structure at the end to be the DS or not is irrelevant, it helps show the coming of Imperial oppression and that´s its function.

Venators are wedge-shaped and grey at the end of the film, does that mean they are Imperators? Of course not. It´s merely visual symbolism to show the transition from Republic navy to Imperial navy. Same with the spherical station.

On-topic, I´d say 'yes', since most of the straight information about the history and cultures in the SW universe is interesting, even if the stories themselves are lacking.

[Kurgan]

I can't vote entirely yes, because there are some elements (Thrawn trilogy, foremost) that I actually like. But there's a lot of utter shit as well. Anything by KJA I would trash without batting an eye, for instance.

It's a toss-up. I think more harm than good has come from the EU, but the little good that has come from it has been really good, while the bad has been truly horrid.

That's pretty much how my view goes as well. I love parts of the EU, and I have to shake my head at a lot of it, unfortunately. Some fans are happy that Lucas ignored bits of the EU when making the Prequels, other fans were angry. So I guess you'll get some mixed opinions on this!

Even before the Prequels introduced controversy though, some of the stuff struck me as money-making filler and poorly concieved (or simply poorly executed).

So yeah, it's a self serving kind of thing. I'd trash the parts I don't like, and keep the ones I do. Then again, it's not up to me...

I'd only say yes if you had continuity editors with balls, a set of technical editors on the payroll too, and the initial source and background material (as created by WEG here) was written up with the contribution and editing of people like Dr. Saxton, Publius, Mike, Wayne, Marina, etc.

This sounds like something I could drink to as well. If they'd had more solid efforts toward maintaining continuity from the get go and more quality control things could have turned out better. It didn't help of course that Lucas clearly was making it up as he went along, but trying to make it out as if he wasn't. Since hindsight is 20/20, the EU stuff should have been created after the last prequel was released. But then the purpose of the EU was to test the popularity of Star Wars with the public years after the movies hit a dry spell, keep the hype going, and generate money (and ideas) for the film franchise.

Instead of the further adventures of the GFFA and the aging main cast facing some bold new threat and killing a random important character every now and then, perhaps you guys have hit it right on. Perhaps the EU should be "restarted" with no preconceptions except the movies as they currently exist, and strict observation of continuity/quality.

[VT-16]

The main problem for the EU in the future, as I see it, is that there really isn´t much more you can do, unless you´re willing to move past the core group of characters. The distant past is a nice idea, but even that appears to be filling up. The only two alternatives I can see, are a) ending the EU permanently and concentrate on what will end up being a part of the "full" history of the SW universe and what will be discarded, or b) take advantage of the fact that you´ve got an entire GALAXY to work with, past, present and future, and explore some new avenues for once.

[Darth Raptor]

I don't look at the Star Wars universe primarily for the acting, the scriptwriting, the tales told about it which might well just be "something based on a legend" type of deal. I look at it from a world-building viewpoint... or an anthropologist's viewpoint. The people, the creatures, the politics, the military, the locations, the planets...

I couldn't have said it better myself. SW has never really been about the stories to me. It's a fascinating universe that I want to know as much as I possibly can about.

Does real world history always have an enthralling plot and a happy ending? Of course not. I say keep the EU.

[Stark]

I don't want it GONE, I just want canon order rearranged. I hate all the bullshit the EU makes up about stuff in the movies. Everything else I can ignore, because it's rubbish, but all the garbage they make up about Yavin and Y-wings and TIE-Defenders and shit is irritating. Turreted ion guns MY ASS!

And the only way that's the T-IV is if it's had a block dropped in later. We can't ignore the error, so it obviously isn't exactly the same. Frankly, I don't care: the ANH one looks better anyway.

That AIN'T the DS. You'd have to be totally obtuse to think that. I've seen the movie once, I was bored and my butt hurt by the end, and I still thought 'that's not the DS at all, thank god'. Generic People think it's the DS, of course, and then I say 'remember how the bug guys wanted to build one' and they say 'oh yeah! I guess it's their one then'. It's only fanboys with an interest in extending the DS' construction time that think otherwise.

Fuck the intentions of George Lucas. He's a fucking hack. All hail SoD.

[Srynerson]

Fuck the intentions of George Lucas. He's a fucking hack. All hail SoD.

Wow! You are a Sith Devotee, aren't you? Anyhow, I would keep the EU. While there are some cringe-inducing moments in it (see, e.g., Waru, freezing an entire planet, etc.), I enjoy following the "continuing adventures" of the characters and learning more about the galaxy's history, culture, etc.

[Stark]

Ironically, its the 'embellishing by fanbois' aspect I hate. I don't care about the wandering adventures of Random Task; I care about the garbage we have to live with because it isn't overriden by movies. Not just the books: the games as well. Stuff for which there is absolutely no evidence for (ion cannons for disabling, for instance) in the movies, but we have to live with anyway because some utter crackwhore of a wage-author decided it would be cool. Bah, I say.

[Srynerson]

There's alot of good stories I've read, and wouldn't mind reading again. But get rid of the wanking areas of the EU, like the DS2 being constructed in, like what, six months?

That'd be filmic canon, not EU. You lose.

Where does it state in the film the DS2 was constructed to that point in six months?

Here's the opening crawl for RotJ, relevant part in boldface:

Luke Skywalker has returned to his home planet of Tatooine in an attempt to rescue his friend Han Solo from the clutches of the vile gangster Jabba the Hutt. Little does Luke know that the Galactic Empire has begun construction on a new armored space station even more powerful than the first dreaded Death Star. When completed, this ultimate weapon will spell certain doom for the small band of rebels struggling to restore freedom to the galaxy...

[Lord Revan]

Stark Ion weapons disabling ships with little to no damage comes from the Movie not the EU (the ISD in TESB were disabled by Ion cannon shots that did no visible damage).

[Srynerson]

Stuff for which there is absolutely no evidence for (ion cannons for disabling, for instance) in the movies, but we have to live with anyway because some utter crackwhore of a wage-author decided it would be cool. Bah, I say.

I don't want to get too off topic, but if you watch the ion cannon scene in ESB closely, you'll notice no apparent structural damage to the star destroyer from the impact, but its engines go offline.

EDIT: I should have been faster on the "Submit" button.