Final Fantasy XIV

GEC: Discuss gaming, computers and electronics and venture into the bizarre world of STGODs.

Moderator: Thanas

User avatar
LadyTevar
White Mage
White Mage
Posts: 21322
Joined: 2003-02-12 10:59pm

Re: Final Fantasy XIV

Post by LadyTevar »

Lord Revan wrote: 2022-01-22 04:27pm Ghetto edit:I checked while my pally heals for about 12k per cast with Clemency and my Sage heals for about 6k per cast on Diagnosis, that's not whole deal here as my sage is level 88 and mostly in level 80 raiding gear, while my pally is level 90 and ready for Savage item level wise though IIRC unmelded atm (that said Clemency is potency 900 and Diagnosis is potency 400).

However Clemency is 4000 mp per cast (and that cannot be reduced at all even if it can be made instant cast), while Diagnosis is 400 mp and as I mentioned before it's actually the weakest and least mana efficient of Sage heals (its true main purpose is to give the single target shield thru an interaction with the Eukrasia skill) while your actual go to heals are the Addersgall heals that are much more powerful and instant cast (while you got only 3 charges of Addersgall it recharges much faster then MP and you got a skill that gives you a free Addersgall should you need one).

EDIT:even Eukrasian Diagnosis is "only" 800 MP and that's actually quite a powerful shield you get, 150% of the amount of healing to be exact.
Which is a BIG Difference from WHM, where your Base Cures are 1000 MP and take FOREVER to cast. Don't even get me started with RAISE, even pared with Swiftcast it's a PITA if there's large ICKs being thrown around.

My Tank is a Dark Knight, so not that much healing. I get self-barriers that drop enemy damage, a few "heal when attack hits", but I only *recently* realized I was playing those wrong, and I should be cycling them, not throwing all of them on at once. :roll:
Those barriers also seem to cycle slowly, so I have to space them out, not just "one's down, put up the other", especially if I'm in a low-level dungeon and can only access one or two of them.
Image
Librium Arcana, Where Gamers Play!
Nitram, slightly high on cough syrup: Do you know you're beautiful?
Me: Nope, that's why I have you around to tell me.
Nitram: You -are- beautiful. Anyone tries to tell you otherwise kill them.
"A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP" -- Leonard Nimoy, last Tweet
User avatar
Lord Revan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11644
Joined: 2004-05-20 02:23pm
Location: Zone:classified

Re: Final Fantasy XIV

Post by Lord Revan »

LadyTevar wrote: 2022-01-24 05:20pm
Lord Revan wrote: 2022-01-22 04:27pm Ghetto edit:I checked while my pally heals for about 12k per cast with Clemency and my Sage heals for about 6k per cast on Diagnosis, that's not whole deal here as my sage is level 88 and mostly in level 80 raiding gear, while my pally is level 90 and ready for Savage item level wise though IIRC unmelded atm (that said Clemency is potency 900 and Diagnosis is potency 400).

However Clemency is 4000 mp per cast (and that cannot be reduced at all even if it can be made instant cast), while Diagnosis is 400 mp and as I mentioned before it's actually the weakest and least mana efficient of Sage heals (its true main purpose is to give the single target shield thru an interaction with the Eukrasia skill) while your actual go to heals are the Addersgall heals that are much more powerful and instant cast (while you got only 3 charges of Addersgall it recharges much faster then MP and you got a skill that gives you a free Addersgall should you need one).

EDIT:even Eukrasian Diagnosis is "only" 800 MP and that's actually quite a powerful shield you get, 150% of the amount of healing to be exact.
Which is a BIG Difference from WHM, where your Base Cures are 1000 MP and take FOREVER to cast. Don't even get me started with RAISE, even pared with Swiftcast it's a PITA if there's large ICKs being thrown around.

My Tank is a Dark Knight, so not that much healing. I get self-barriers that drop enemy damage, a few "heal when attack hits", but I only *recently* realized I was playing those wrong, and I should be cycling them, not throwing all of them on at once. :roll:
Those barriers also seem to cycle slowly, so I have to space them out, not just "one's down, put up the other", especially if I'm in a low-level dungeon and can only access one or two of them.
Regen is useful on White Mages too and that's instant cast. Raise and it's variants are all very Mana inefficient and it's so consistent I'd assume it's intentional.

My point there was that Clemency spam isn't a replacement for a healer, sure you can 3 DPS a 4 man if you're careful with the pulls and dungeon allows it but wall to wall without a healer isn't really a viable option except maybe to the best Warrior players around rest just won't have the sustain to maintain that especially with only 2 DPS.

My post there was main referring to the tanks who think they're invincible because they have single self heal that's pretty good.
I may be an idiot, but I'm a tolerated idiot
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n
User avatar
LadyTevar
White Mage
White Mage
Posts: 21322
Joined: 2003-02-12 10:59pm

Re: Final Fantasy XIV

Post by LadyTevar »

Lord Revan wrote: 2022-01-25 07:30pm Regen is useful on White Mages too and that's instant cast. Raise and it's variants are all very Mana inefficient and it's so consistent I'd assume it's intentional.

My point there was that Clemency spam isn't a replacement for a healer, sure you can 3 DPS a 4 man if you're careful with the pulls and dungeon allows it but wall to wall without a healer isn't really a viable option except maybe to the best Warrior players around rest just won't have the sustain to maintain that especially with only 2 DPS.

My post there was main referring to the tanks who think they're invincible because they have single self heal that's pretty good.
Regen is the only Instant Cast Heal a WHM gets, far as I can tell (only lvl 65). Then you get the "free" Cure 2 every now and then.

Tanks also forget that Healing is LOS. Getting too far ahead of me or turning a corner, and I cannot heal you. After a stupid wipe, I sat at the respawn and TYPED IN ALL CAPS at the Tank that if he runs too far or goes around a corner, it's not my fault when he dies. While I was typing, Guess What? He DIED because he'd ran off with the DPS and didn't notice I wasn't with them
Image
Librium Arcana, Where Gamers Play!
Nitram, slightly high on cough syrup: Do you know you're beautiful?
Me: Nope, that's why I have you around to tell me.
Nitram: You -are- beautiful. Anyone tries to tell you otherwise kill them.
"A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP" -- Leonard Nimoy, last Tweet
User avatar
Mr Bean
Lord of Irony
Posts: 22363
Joined: 2002-07-04 08:36am

Re: Final Fantasy XIV

Post by Mr Bean »

LadyTevar wrote: 2022-01-25 08:25pm Regen is the only Instant Cast Heal a WHM gets, far as I can tell (only lvl 65). Then you get the "free" Cure 2 every now and then.
Whie mages get the following instant cast heals
Benediction a full heal at 50
Afflatus Solace at 52 and the Lily each heal is identical to cure 2 and can get 3 of them in time
Assize the AoE heal at 56 half the heal (400) but damage as well
Tetragrammaton at 60 a 700 potency heal (VS 800 for cure 2)

It's possible to bounce between regen and Tetra on the tank until the first Lily comes free throwing in Divine Benison shield to save some healing. If the tank is using mitigations it should be enough if not the cure 2's come out.

"A cult is a religion with no political power." -Tom Wolfe
Pardon me for sounding like a dick, but I'm playing the tiniest violin in the world right now-Dalton
User avatar
TheFeniX
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4854
Joined: 2003-06-26 04:24pm
Location: Texas

Re: Final Fantasy XIV

Post by TheFeniX »

Clemency is 2000MP, not 4000. I generally prog as PLD because tanks can keep themselves up and maybe another person, a PLD can do way more. Spot heal with Clemency when some player took a res at the wrong time and is about to die to the raidwide. Cover the last healer in time so they can get an LB3 off. When everyone knows what they're doing, I GNB cuz more tanky and better damage. But PLD is for when shit goes wrong.

As for WAR shennans: every expert dungeon has now been soloed by WAR.

Instant casts are kind of a troll in this engine. You still roll the entire GCD, except your heal is upfront. Afflatus is good to instant cure a tank who will pop before a Cure2 goes off or you have to move and you KNOW some DPS is gonna get cracked and die, but an Afflatus is enough to keep him in the fight. But if you have the time and are down to AOE, you're much better off going Plenary Indulgence> Thin Air > Medica II.

You should literally never be casting a Cure I above.... jesus, level 35? If you're casting Cure I above that, let's say in EXs, it's because everyone is dead and you have 0 cooldowns left and no mana. You may be able to save the day and get the clear that way, but Cure I is beyond desperation since Cure2, the mana burner that it is, is ALREADY your desperation cure.

I'm not saying I'm a huge fan of the Healing meta, I just know what it is.
Mr Bean wrote: 2022-01-25 09:06pmWhie mages get the following instant cast heals
Benediction a full heal at 50
Afflatus Solace at 52 and the Lily each heal is identical to cure 2 and can get 3 of them in time
Assize the AoE heal at 56 half the heal (400) but damage as well
Tetragrammaton at 60 a 700 potency heal (VS 800 for cure 2)
2 Charges of Divine Benison
Aquaveil
Asylum
Wings
Liturgy of the Bell, which is.... great and all, but timing is.... shaky.

Mitigation = heals, if used correctly. I near literally, with a good tank, never use a single GCD heal on a double trash pull. It's just holy spam. TBF: a TON of people have bought the "DRK sucks" meta so I have LITERALLY never seen one in an expert at 90. But in lower level content, but >70, most can get away with literally using Blackest Night on CD and I can do the same thing. The more damage you shield/mitigate, the more you allow the hilarious levels of Tank self-healing to do it's work.
It's possible to bounce between regen and Tetra on the tank until the first Lily comes free throwing in Divine Benison shield to save some healing. If the tank is using mitigations it should be enough if not the cure 2's come out.
Regen has REALLY lost a step at max level. While it's STILL a really good potency for the cost and "fire and forget" for 18s, most tanks now have enough passive healing to not need it and instead, just constantly keep Divine Benison on them and cycle Aquaveil. No tank buster requires these outside Savage. And a regen ain't gonna do shit to a tank buster. It's dumb, but throwing a Divine Veil > Glare is way more useful than using an entire GCD on a regen. It's sad because it used to be really useful at 80. Shiva Unreal with two WHMs, double regen on the tank left you only needing to raid heal for 20 seconds.

Up the mana cost, pull Regen off the GCD. I will say I STILL get use out of Cure III, even on Zod EX. If you get you Med II up, and he starts cracking 6+ of his stack hitter, and you Plenary > Cure III: The other healer can just AFK. Meanwhile, I massively struggle healing huge hits with AST cuz I'm too busy playing YuGiOh.
User avatar
TheFeniX
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4854
Joined: 2003-06-26 04:24pm
Location: Texas

Re: Final Fantasy XIV

Post by TheFeniX »

Moving on, so I'm STILL annoyed about the "Play as a Mook" quest in EW. It eats at my craw because it was so bad. Thing is, I PLAYED the game back when pulling too many mobs in the overworld was dangerous. Hell, it's dangerous now, except you have more buttons to hit. And you don't get through it by using ingenuity or anything like that. You just try no to get spotted and hunt around for some bullshit to then "die" horribly. And THEN when you somehow DO find the strength to pull off some bullshit: it's in a cutscene.

Everyone is all bawling tears at the part where you hold W to crawl forward, "must find friends! must not GIVE IN!" HOLD W. HOLD W TO CRAWL. SUCH emotion! Ok, we're doing it! Now, we get to!!!!...!!! ... watch a cutscene....... JFC when Modern Warfare does it better..... Holy shit, just how many other games did this better? Man, even FFXIV does it better. I generally hate the QTEs in this game, but "The Light within Her Champions grows feint.." and then you mash, and build that power.

Fuck that quest, it's bad. It reeks of low effort emotional bait. And THEN I get reminded of how bad it was because I finally got to playing New War in Warframe. SPOILER: You play as two different mooks, and holy shit is it WAY better. You're just one grunt, you can't play Mesa Prime and hit 4 and ROFLSTOMP every enemy in view. You can't Rhino Charge through everything. You gotta play a grunt, a guy with some weapons and a melee. However, the UI is familiar, everything functions pretty much the same (shootmans, hackmans, and ability locations). BUT he can't dash jump or slide 500 feet then ninja flip into a ground slam that does 6mil damage. Hell, while a bit long, the whole quest was about making you appreciate all your shit. You spend half of it running around as a kid with a bow, sneaking constantly (using actual serviceable stealth mechanics) and open combat is brutal, you can't stand a bang. And then you get all your shit back..... and its. fuckin. ON. You start laying low enemy scum and the final Sub-boss, just. gets. stomped. DE does a lot of things wrong, but making the player appreciate all the shit they spent hundreds of hours grinding isn't one of them. And they didn't have to do this. People don't play Grindframe for the story. The play it to grind shinies.

Starts at 2:30. MASSIVE Warframe Spoilers. Squeenix had so many opportunities to show how ingenuity, skill, and drive was what made the WoL great. Instead it's just "don't get spotted, whoops you did? Hit the 1 button." God damn, I am way more angry about that than I probably should be. What a shitty low-point in an otherwise banger of an expac.... and I think what really drives me up the wall is the massive positive reception it got. You know what made me feel small? Back in ARR when I was out doing shit and the Garleans murdered a bunch of my doods and me and Arenvald were left to pick up the pieces. Made me feel like even with all the progress we made, the Garleans were still massively more powerful. That we had a long way to go. And then when Midgarsomr seals off the light and ONCE AGAIN all our doods are missing/dead and we spend an ENTIRE expac BUILDING back up to God Stomping Power. And Zenos has the FUCKIN' GAL to think it's just our body that makes us who we are. And the Devs have the gal to think this quest had any emotional impact, other than "frustration."

They had 1000 ways to go about this quest, and they chose possibly one of the shittiest. Hell, if they had BALLS, the whole zone would PotD/HoH your ass and set whatever class you had to level 1 and you had to double level through the zone. Have some balls, break the mold. Jesus.
User avatar
LadyTevar
White Mage
White Mage
Posts: 21322
Joined: 2003-02-12 10:59pm

Re: Final Fantasy XIV

Post by LadyTevar »

TheFeniX wrote: 2022-01-26 01:31pm Moving on, so I'm STILL annoyed about the "Play as a Mook" quest in EW. It eats at my craw because it was so bad.

I liked it.

I was cursing Fandaniel and Zenos the entire way, absolutely pissed that they would first violate me that way, and then Steal My Body. I did have to redo the scenario once (slid it down to Easy), but as I'm lying there thinking "Oh god, I'm dead, I'll have to redo it again", I get the option to crawl. And I put my heart into crawling, because if that's what I have to do then dammit I'm going to crawl because I was NOT letting those bastards win.

When I showed up in the cutscene, throwing my weapon at Zenos to make him stop? I was cheering. Take that you fuckin' bastard! Next time I find you I will beat the fuckin' shit out of you for this!

Then Fandaniel pulls his shit on the moon, and Yes, Zenos, I have FAR MORE IMPORTANT things to do than worry about your little fixation. If you're not going to help get out of my way.
Image
Librium Arcana, Where Gamers Play!
Nitram, slightly high on cough syrup: Do you know you're beautiful?
Me: Nope, that's why I have you around to tell me.
Nitram: You -are- beautiful. Anyone tries to tell you otherwise kill them.
"A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP" -- Leonard Nimoy, last Tweet
User avatar
Steve
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9633
Joined: 2002-07-03 01:09pm
Location: Florida USA
Contact:

Re: Final Fantasy XIV

Post by Steve »

LadyTevar wrote: 2022-01-27 07:26pm Then Fandaniel pulls his shit on the moon, and Yes, Zenos, I have FAR MORE IMPORTANT things to do than worry about your little fixation. If you're not going to help get out of my way.

Speaking of those important things, have you managed to finish them yet? :D
”A Radical is a man with both feet planted firmly in the air.” – Franklin Delano Roosevelt

"No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism." - Sir Winston L. S. Churchill, Princips Britannia

American Conservatism is about the exercise of personal responsibility without state interference in the lives of the citizenry..... unless, of course, it involves using the bludgeon of state power to suppress things Conservatives do not like.

DONALD J. TRUMP IS A SEDITIOUS TRAITOR AND MUST BE IMPEACHED
User avatar
TheFeniX
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4854
Joined: 2003-06-26 04:24pm
Location: Texas

Re: Final Fantasy XIV

Post by TheFeniX »

This is my problem. It's either an extremely obtuse and frustrating event on normal, or you kick it down to easy and it just becomes a slog as you blindly stumble around looking for the MacGuffins. There's no real sense of danger because player skill is completely removed from the equation.

"You" didn't do anything. A scripted cutscene played. My beef is that: this is not a movie. It's an interactive storytelling medium. While obvious the STORY of FFXIV is stellar (for the most part: fuck you, Ran'Jit), it relies on IMO outdated (JRPG) storytelling concepts and hilariously mechanically simple and boring boss fights. As a game that uses the medium, SWTOR was a much better storytelling experience.

I got no prompt, not even a QTE of "summon your strength to throw the sword." Even that little weird shootmans mini-game they added. Something as simple as "aim, MASH TO CHARGE." Literally anything, would have given me SOME kid of agency, some kind of connection to the event. Instead, the quest just ends, nothing gained/nothing lost. I get level synced enough in this game to know what it's like to lose all my world-ending abilities. I didn't need a 40 minute boring quest to remind me.

But my issue is further than that. Zenos is a loser. He lost. He lost while being infused with Shinryu, against a WoL only sporting what's left of Hydaealyn's power. A power we were stripped of once, and we fought through man and God's to get back even that and became even stronger. Zenos lost. He died. And is only still kicking around either due to his lineage or his artificial echo (or a combination of the two). I'm not afraid of him anymore than I was afraid of Multiverse Gul'Dan in WoW: he's old news. Fuck him.

This is Capeshit shit. Bringing back old villains, and not even bothering to change anything about them. Zenos wanted a big fight with us last time. We killed him. He came back, learned nothing, and wants a rematch. Pfft.

And I never once get to call him out on this. Throw his bullshit in his face: "You're old news. You lost. You're a loser." MEANWHILE, in case you haven't made it past Elpis, I'll spoiler this: Spoiler
Hermes makes naive AI, gives it terrible question to answer.
I'm laughing saying "Holy SHIT, that is a bad question."
Emet Selch: "Did you ever think your question was flawed?"
Thumbs Up, writer man.
The devs keep wanting me to "like" Zenos. "He's a GREAT character. Why don't you like him, LIKE HIM DAMMIT. He's INTERESTING!" No he's not, he was a shit villain before I killed him. And he's even more shit now. Fuckin' for a "burn it all down" villain, Seymour (FFX) was at least actually interesting. SO, to sum this rant up: to make me GAF about Zenos Round 2: Electric Boogaloo, they needed to try really hard. They didn't. Fuck that whole zone. A bunch of "please feel sorry for NAZIS! They got scammed, some are good people." Fuck off, you spent 7 years making opaque metaphors to Nazi's with the Garleans. Don't try and make me empathize with Nazis, not gonna happen.

I legit laughed when that one Legate? whoever shot himself, rather than accept working with the Eorzeans. What a cowardly POS to leave his people at the "mercy" of "savages" like he did out of some sense of honor. The POS had a DUTY to protect his people if he thought we were going to rape/murder them all. But, like most Garleans, he was a total POS and died like one should.
User avatar
Steve
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9633
Joined: 2002-07-03 01:09pm
Location: Florida USA
Contact:

Re: Final Fantasy XIV

Post by Steve »

I have mixed feelings about the Garlemald zone. On the one hand I don't like the lack of pushback at Quintus' blatherings, or any of the other Garleans' arrogance. On the other hand I just love that the Eorzeans no-selled their entire vainglorious scheme. Quintus didn't get to go out like a hero or pull some clever trick to show he was some kind of awesome leader we had to take seriously. He was a prideful, vain, bigoted, and selfish man, and the only credit I'll give him is that he didn't demand everyone die with him to avoid the shame of surrender, but left them to pick their own fate (though as you've noted, this was also abandonment in its own way). Jullus became a contrast to him; carrying the same bullshit, but opening his eyes and ultimately being ready to accept that the Empire was gone, Garlemald as he knew it was gone, and that these people really were there to help.
”A Radical is a man with both feet planted firmly in the air.” – Franklin Delano Roosevelt

"No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism." - Sir Winston L. S. Churchill, Princips Britannia

American Conservatism is about the exercise of personal responsibility without state interference in the lives of the citizenry..... unless, of course, it involves using the bludgeon of state power to suppress things Conservatives do not like.

DONALD J. TRUMP IS A SEDITIOUS TRAITOR AND MUST BE IMPEACHED
User avatar
LadyTevar
White Mage
White Mage
Posts: 21322
Joined: 2003-02-12 10:59pm

Re: Final Fantasy XIV

Post by LadyTevar »

Steve wrote: 2022-01-29 06:42am I have mixed feelings about the Garlemald zone. On the one hand I don't like the lack of pushback at Quintus' blatherings, or any of the other Garleans' arrogance. On the other hand I just love that the Eorzeans no-selled their entire vainglorious scheme. Quintus didn't get to go out like a hero or pull some clever trick to show he was some kind of awesome leader we had to take seriously. He was a prideful, vain, bigoted, and selfish man, and the only credit I'll give him is that he didn't demand everyone die with him to avoid the shame of surrender, but left them to pick their own fate (though as you've noted, this was also abandonment in its own way). Jullus became a contrast to him; carrying the same bullshit, but opening his eyes and ultimately being ready to accept that the Empire was gone, Garlemald as he knew it was gone, and that these people really were there to help.
I have to wonder how much of Quintus' actions were based on actions of WWII Japanese Officers after the Emperor surrendered. I've heard there were many who took their own lives.
Image
Librium Arcana, Where Gamers Play!
Nitram, slightly high on cough syrup: Do you know you're beautiful?
Me: Nope, that's why I have you around to tell me.
Nitram: You -are- beautiful. Anyone tries to tell you otherwise kill them.
"A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP" -- Leonard Nimoy, last Tweet
User avatar
Lord Revan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11644
Joined: 2004-05-20 02:23pm
Location: Zone:classified

Re: Final Fantasy XIV

Post by Lord Revan »

LadyTevar wrote: 2022-01-29 06:35pm
Steve wrote: 2022-01-29 06:42am I have mixed feelings about the Garlemald zone. On the one hand I don't like the lack of pushback at Quintus' blatherings, or any of the other Garleans' arrogance. On the other hand I just love that the Eorzeans no-selled their entire vainglorious scheme. Quintus didn't get to go out like a hero or pull some clever trick to show he was some kind of awesome leader we had to take seriously. He was a prideful, vain, bigoted, and selfish man, and the only credit I'll give him is that he didn't demand everyone die with him to avoid the shame of surrender, but left them to pick their own fate (though as you've noted, this was also abandonment in its own way). Jullus became a contrast to him; carrying the same bullshit, but opening his eyes and ultimately being ready to accept that the Empire was gone, Garlemald as he knew it was gone, and that these people really were there to help.
I have to wonder how much of Quintus' actions were based on actions of WWII Japanese Officers after the Emperor surrendered. I've heard there were many who took their own lives.
Possible a lot of high ranking Nazis killed themselves (and often their families too) when it came clear that surrender was the only option Germany had left.
I may be an idiot, but I'm a tolerated idiot
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n
User avatar
Darth Yan
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2376
Joined: 2008-12-29 02:09pm
Location: California

Re: Final Fantasy XIV

Post by Darth Yan »

TheFeniX wrote: 2022-01-28 03:44pm This is my problem. It's either an extremely obtuse and frustrating event on normal, or you kick it down to easy and it just becomes a slog as you blindly stumble around looking for the MacGuffins. There's no real sense of danger because player skill is completely removed from the equation.

"You" didn't do anything. A scripted cutscene played. My beef is that: this is not a movie. It's an interactive storytelling medium. While obvious the STORY of FFXIV is stellar (for the most part: fuck you, Ran'Jit), it relies on IMO outdated (JRPG) storytelling concepts and hilariously mechanically simple and boring boss fights. As a game that uses the medium, SWTOR was a much better storytelling experience.

I got no prompt, not even a QTE of "summon your strength to throw the sword." Even that little weird shootmans mini-game they added. Something as simple as "aim, MASH TO CHARGE." Literally anything, would have given me SOME kid of agency, some kind of connection to the event. Instead, the quest just ends, nothing gained/nothing lost. I get level synced enough in this game to know what it's like to lose all my world-ending abilities. I didn't need a 40 minute boring quest to remind me.

But my issue is further than that. Zenos is a loser. He lost. He lost while being infused with Shinryu, against a WoL only sporting what's left of Hydaealyn's power. A power we were stripped of once, and we fought through man and God's to get back even that and became even stronger. Zenos lost. He died. And is only still kicking around either due to his lineage or his artificial echo (or a combination of the two). I'm not afraid of him anymore than I was afraid of Multiverse Gul'Dan in WoW: he's old news. Fuck him.

This is Capeshit shit. Bringing back old villains, and not even bothering to change anything about them. Zenos wanted a big fight with us last time. We killed him. He came back, learned nothing, and wants a rematch. Pfft.

And I never once get to call him out on this. Throw his bullshit in his face: "You're old news. You lost. You're a loser." MEANWHILE, in case you haven't made it past Elpis, I'll spoiler this: Spoiler
Hermes makes naive AI, gives it terrible question to answer.
I'm laughing saying "Holy SHIT, that is a bad question."
Emet Selch: "Did you ever think your question was flawed?"
Thumbs Up, writer man.
The devs keep wanting me to "like" Zenos. "He's a GREAT character. Why don't you like him, LIKE HIM DAMMIT. He's INTERESTING!" No he's not, he was a shit villain before I killed him. And he's even more shit now. Fuckin' for a "burn it all down" villain, Seymour (FFX) was at least actually interesting. SO, to sum this rant up: to make me GAF about Zenos Round 2: Electric Boogaloo, they needed to try really hard. They didn't. Fuck that whole zone. A bunch of "please feel sorry for NAZIS! They got scammed, some are good people." Fuck off, you spent 7 years making opaque metaphors to Nazi's with the Garleans. Don't try and make me empathize with Nazis, not gonna happen.

I legit laughed when that one Legate? whoever shot himself, rather than accept working with the Eorzeans. What a cowardly POS to leave his people at the "mercy" of "savages" like he did out of some sense of honor. The POS had a DUTY to protect his people if he thought we were going to rape/murder them all. But, like most Garleans, he was a total POS and died like one should.
Zenos makes sense. His entire schtick is that he's never really had a challenge or a goal to work for; as such his life is empty and pointless to him. The Warrior of Light is the first person to REALLY challenge him and the prospect of fighting you again after you beat him is the first time he's ever REALLY had something to aspire to. In a way he's the Warrior if they never had to face any challenges or never had real allies and friends (since the Warrior is ALSO hinted to love fighting for the thrill of it.)

So for the first time in his life Zenos has SOMETHING to aspire to, something that makes life worth living. And he does ultimately in his own twisted way consider you a friend. When he gets called out on it he does some soul searching and actually decides to help you (albeit for his own selfish ass reasons). It's even hinted that HE'S the one who called the teleport to bring you back.

As a dark reflection he works fine.

The Garleans are also interesting. If you look at their backstory they were the world's punching bag due to their lack of magic; as such their conquests is basically them lashing out as payback. And the way they justify their crimes is the belief everyone else would do the same to them in their circumstances. In a way, they colonized themselves first.

I think THAT'S why they're so unwilling to admit that your desire to help is genuine. Because if you AREN'T going to do the same thing in their situation, than that means they've just been committing needless and pointless acts of cruelty and none of the crimes they've committed were justified. And it's RARELY fun to realize that you're the bad guy. So the realization that you ARE there to help basically breaks them completely.
User avatar
Lord Revan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11644
Joined: 2004-05-20 02:23pm
Location: Zone:classified

Re: Final Fantasy XIV

Post by Lord Revan »

It's best to understand that for a large part the Garleans are a case of "evil not understanding good" to them the idea that some who is in a position of power wouldn't exploit it is practically unthinkable for most Garleans, also Spoiler
Garlean Empire was created by the Ascians as tool to create chaos in the world so its not unreasonable to assume that Garlean politics and mentality was based on the notion that other races cannot be reasoned with only subjugated and we do know Emet-Selch ruled the Garlean empire long enough that he had an adult great grandson before allowing the Solus persona to die of old age so again it's not unreasonable to assume he made sure that philosophical leanings that were against his goals were suppressed in the Garlean Empire
I may be an idiot, but I'm a tolerated idiot
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n
User avatar
LadyTevar
White Mage
White Mage
Posts: 21322
Joined: 2003-02-12 10:59pm

Re: Final Fantasy XIV

Post by LadyTevar »

Lord Revan wrote: 2022-01-31 10:42am It's best to understand that for a large part the Garleans are a case of "evil not understanding good" to them the idea that some who is in a position of power wouldn't exploit it is practically unthinkable for most Garleans, also (SPOILER REMOVED)
A good comparison would be the Fire Nation from "Avatar: Last Airbender". The people of the Fire Nation were fully indoctrinated into thinking they had the Right to conquer the other Nations, because that's what the Fire Emperor wanted even before Avatar Roku died. 100years of conditioning, and no one questioned it, until Prince Zuko spoke out and was punished for it.

Storyline will tell you that Solus built the Ideals of Garlean Superiority the same way, and he was literally a Pillar of the Empire as it cracked as soon as he died. One has to wonder how much contact he had with Zenos, and if he helped mold the insanity.
Image
Librium Arcana, Where Gamers Play!
Nitram, slightly high on cough syrup: Do you know you're beautiful?
Me: Nope, that's why I have you around to tell me.
Nitram: You -are- beautiful. Anyone tries to tell you otherwise kill them.
"A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP" -- Leonard Nimoy, last Tweet
User avatar
Lord Revan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11644
Joined: 2004-05-20 02:23pm
Location: Zone:classified

Re: Final Fantasy XIV

Post by Lord Revan »

LadyTevar wrote: 2022-01-31 04:15pm
Lord Revan wrote: 2022-01-31 10:42am It's best to understand that for a large part the Garleans are a case of "evil not understanding good" to them the idea that some who is in a position of power wouldn't exploit it is practically unthinkable for most Garleans, also (SPOILER REMOVED)
A good comparison would be the Fire Nation from "Avatar: Last Airbender". The people of the Fire Nation were fully indoctrinated into thinking they had the Right to conquer the other Nations, because that's what the Fire Emperor wanted even before Avatar Roku died. 100years of conditioning, and no one questioned it, until Prince Zuko spoke out and was punished for it.

Storyline will tell you that Solus built the Ideals of Garlean Superiority the same way, and he was literally a Pillar of the Empire as it cracked as soon as he died. One has to wonder how much contact he had with Zenos, and if he helped mold the insanity.
IIRC from what I've read from secondary sources that it was less the case that Solus directly molded Zenos into the way he was but rather the case of Solus punishing Varis for reminding Solus of his dead son (Varis' dad), which lead Varis becoming neglectful and kind of abusive towards Zenos, which in turn lead to the Zenos we know and "love".

In fact that Avatar comparison isn't that far of as Zenos is kind of similar to Azula in ways.
I may be an idiot, but I'm a tolerated idiot
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n
User avatar
TheFeniX
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4854
Joined: 2003-06-26 04:24pm
Location: Texas

Re: Final Fantasy XIV

Post by TheFeniX »

Darth Yan wrote: 2022-01-31 12:40amZenos makes sense. His entire schtick is that he's never really had a challenge or a goal to work for; as such his life is empty and pointless to him. The Warrior of Light is the first person to REALLY challenge him and the prospect of fighting you again after you beat him is the first time he's ever REALLY had something to aspire to. In a way he's the Warrior if they never had to face any challenges or never had real allies and friends (since the Warrior is ALSO hinted to love fighting for the thrill of it.)
You're giving him and the writers WAY too much credit: Yea, he makes sense. He stumbles around slaughtering rank and file soldiers, and lamenting "man these people suck." Then he randomly stumbles on one person he can beat, but "could possible beat me." ZOMG! Where was he when Bahamut was fuckin' around? Nidhogg? Omega? Literally, fuckin' anything. He's earned literally nothing. He's DONE literally nothing. He's a child with godlike powers. Worse than being a child? He's fuckin' boring. Blood Knights are boring. You gotta try hard to make them not suck. FFXIV did the bare minimum.

His whole rant about murking like 50 doods with his bare hands? Go him? I suck at MNK and I can do that. You can make the argument he's some kind of deconstruction or foil to CERTAIN aspects of the WoL, but it all falls flats because his rants are moronic and baseless.
As a dark reflection he works fine.
No. He doesn't. A Dark Reflection would be a man who showed up to fight <x> godly being, throwing himself at it and anyone who got in his way. GAUIS would qualify WAY more since a goal we shared was "stopping primals." Gaius was willing to slaughter all the beast tribes, hell pretty much ANYONE, to stop the summoning of primals. He would subjugate the entirety of Eorzea to stop primal summonings.

Oooofffff, JFC you're making me bring up DnD. So Drizzt Do'Urden had a "Dark Reflection" in Artemis Entreri. Literally him, but evil. He trained all the time, is super good at fighting, but he gave up EVERYTHING for it. Every ounce of morality, friendships? Gets in the way of learnin' to murder better. Then he meets Drizzt. This Dark Elf who SHOULD be evil, should be UNIVERSALLY hated. And isn't. He has friends, he has noble goals, he didn't sacrifice EVERYTHING to be good at swingin' swords. Oh yea, and cuz Drizzt is SUPER SPECIAL, he's better than Atermis. And it ENRAGES him. I only bring this up because it's the perfect example of what you're talking about because Salvatore doesn't DO subtle: he wields themes like a sledgehammer.

In WHAT way, outside the ability to KILL THINGS <> to us, is Zenos a Dark Reflection of us? The fuckin' 30-50 DRK quest did it better and didn't get the benefit of voice acting for some reason.

They could, COULD have made him a reflection of the PLAYER. Our desire to win at any cost. To lay low thousands of mobs in our quest for XP and levels, in the quest for clears. But they didn't. Zenos isn't a reflection of us, he's an annoying skin tag that just kind of dangles off us and rants stupid shit at the WoL.
The Garleans are also interesting. If you look at their backstory they were the world's punching bag due to their lack of magic; as such their conquests is basically them lashing out as payback. And the way they justify their crimes is the belief everyone else would do the same to them in their circumstances. In a way, they colonized themselves first.
They WERE possibly interesting, until the shoe dropped and they were shown to have been created as a society specifically to handle "this side" of the rejoinings. But before that, hmmmm, society commits atrocities based on years old grudge and labelling everyone else as savages. And yet still handing out Honorary Garlean badges to useful savages. Stop me if you've heard this before: Opaque. Nazi. Metaphor.
I think THAT'S why they're so unwilling to admit that your desire to help is genuine. Because if you AREN'T going to do the same thing in their situation, than that means they've just been committing needless and pointless acts of cruelty and none of the crimes they've committed were justified. And it's RARELY fun to realize that you're the bad guy. So the realization that you ARE there to help basically breaks them completely.
A brainwashed Hitler youth is still a fuckin' Nazi. If this were reality, we'd be like "oh yea, what you did was bad.... kinda... but we could use all your engineers to build more Magitek, so come on and join us. And then 100 years later you could get together with your other buddies and bully savages while flying Garlean Pride flags."

Fuck Nazis dood. It's actually a line for me. I mean, "hilariously" fuckin' Nazi's AT LEAST were only scammed by humans. Literally God Tier entities built their entire civilization from the ground up to destroy the world. The entire CONCEPT of "Garlea" needs to be smashed into the fuckin' ground and those still trying to hold onto the "good" parts of it need to be reminded constantly about how shit their society was.

I don't really MIND being reminded that because we didn't CRUSH Nazi and Confederate ideology, I gotta deal with BOTH to this day. Because fiction is supposed to make us uncomfortable. But I damn sure don't like my character being party to it. Even if my only response to Garleans bullshit was "roll eyes and walk away," that would have been something. Instead it's just..... woof... that entire garbage zone.
User avatar
Darth Yan
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2376
Joined: 2008-12-29 02:09pm
Location: California

Re: Final Fantasy XIV

Post by Darth Yan »

TheFeniX wrote: 2022-02-01 03:23pm
Darth Yan wrote: 2022-01-31 12:40amZenos makes sense. His entire schtick is that he's never really had a challenge or a goal to work for; as such his life is empty and pointless to him. The Warrior of Light is the first person to REALLY challenge him and the prospect of fighting you again after you beat him is the first time he's ever REALLY had something to aspire to. In a way he's the Warrior if they never had to face any challenges or never had real allies and friends (since the Warrior is ALSO hinted to love fighting for the thrill of it.)
You're giving him and the writers WAY too much credit: Yea, he makes sense. He stumbles around slaughtering rank and file soldiers, and lamenting "man these people suck." Then he randomly stumbles on one person he can beat, but "could possible beat me." ZOMG! Where was he when Bahamut was fuckin' around? Nidhogg? Omega? Literally, fuckin' anything. He's earned literally nothing. He's DONE literally nothing. He's a child with godlike powers. Worse than being a child? He's fuckin' boring. Blood Knights are boring. You gotta try hard to make them not suck. FFXIV did the bare minimum.

His whole rant about murking like 50 doods with his bare hands? Go him? I suck at MNK and I can do that. You can make the argument he's some kind of deconstruction or foil to CERTAIN aspects of the WoL, but it all falls flats because his rants are moronic and baseless.
As a dark reflection he works fine.
No. He doesn't. A Dark Reflection would be a man who showed up to fight <x> godly being, throwing himself at it and anyone who got in his way. GAUIS would qualify WAY more since a goal we shared was "stopping primals." Gaius was willing to slaughter all the beast tribes, hell pretty much ANYONE, to stop the summoning of primals. He would subjugate the entirety of Eorzea to stop primal summonings.

Oooofffff, JFC you're making me bring up DnD. So Drizzt Do'Urden had a "Dark Reflection" in Artemis Entreri. Literally him, but evil. He trained all the time, is super good at fighting, but he gave up EVERYTHING for it. Every ounce of morality, friendships? Gets in the way of learnin' to murder better. Then he meets Drizzt. This Dark Elf who SHOULD be evil, should be UNIVERSALLY hated. And isn't. He has friends, he has noble goals, he didn't sacrifice EVERYTHING to be good at swingin' swords. Oh yea, and cuz Drizzt is SUPER SPECIAL, he's better than Atermis. And it ENRAGES him. I only bring this up because it's the perfect example of what you're talking about because Salvatore doesn't DO subtle: he wields themes like a sledgehammer.

In WHAT way, outside the ability to KILL THINGS <> to us, is Zenos a Dark Reflection of us? The fuckin' 30-50 DRK quest did it better and didn't get the benefit of voice acting for some reason.

They could, COULD have made him a reflection of the PLAYER. Our desire to win at any cost. To lay low thousands of mobs in our quest for XP and levels, in the quest for clears. But they didn't. Zenos isn't a reflection of us, he's an annoying skin tag that just kind of dangles off us and rants stupid shit at the WoL.
The Garleans are also interesting. If you look at their backstory they were the world's punching bag due to their lack of magic; as such their conquests is basically them lashing out as payback. And the way they justify their crimes is the belief everyone else would do the same to them in their circumstances. In a way, they colonized themselves first.
They WERE possibly interesting, until the shoe dropped and they were shown to have been created as a society specifically to handle "this side" of the rejoinings. But before that, hmmmm, society commits atrocities based on years old grudge and labelling everyone else as savages. And yet still handing out Honorary Garlean badges to useful savages. Stop me if you've heard this before: Opaque. Nazi. Metaphor.
I think THAT'S why they're so unwilling to admit that your desire to help is genuine. Because if you AREN'T going to do the same thing in their situation, than that means they've just been committing needless and pointless acts of cruelty and none of the crimes they've committed were justified. And it's RARELY fun to realize that you're the bad guy. So the realization that you ARE there to help basically breaks them completely.
A brainwashed Hitler youth is still a fuckin' Nazi. If this were reality, we'd be like "oh yea, what you did was bad.... kinda... but we could use all your engineers to build more Magitek, so come on and join us. And then 100 years later you could get together with your other buddies and bully savages while flying Garlean Pride flags."

Fuck Nazis dood. It's actually a line for me. I mean, "hilariously" fuckin' Nazi's AT LEAST were only scammed by humans. Literally God Tier entities built their entire civilization from the ground up to destroy the world. The entire CONCEPT of "Garlea" needs to be smashed into the fuckin' ground and those still trying to hold onto the "good" parts of it need to be reminded constantly about how shit their society was.

I don't really MIND being reminded that because we didn't CRUSH Nazi and Confederate ideology, I gotta deal with BOTH to this day. Because fiction is supposed to make us uncomfortable. But I damn sure don't like my character being party to it. Even if my only response to Garleans bullshit was "roll eyes and walk away," that would have been something. Instead it's just..... woof... that entire garbage zone.
1 and 2.) He's the part of the warrior that loves fighting for the thrill of it and gaining satisfaction from overcoming obstacles. The difference is the warrior had companions as well as things that challenged him. Zenos never did due to his royal standing and prodigious skills; the fact that he was raised in a godawful environment with Emet Selch as his great grandfather and Varis as his father also didn't do wonders for his mental state. In that way yes he is a dark reflection of the hero. He's them if they had no obstacles and no real companions.

He also DOES have some growth. After Alisae calls him out he realizes he hasn't been considering what drives you, and even a sociopath like him realizes that on an intellectual level friends are supposed to consider what the other wants. He comes to realize that while you are driven by a love of fighting you're also driven by a desire to protect people and serve life, and that his incessant insistence on fighting you when you had bigger shit is why you rejected him. So in his own twisted way he decides to help you and is willing to walk away if that's what you want. And he's even implied to be the one who wishes the transporter comes back to help you.

3 and 4.) The Nazis do need to be crushed but like it or not there are times when you have to try a gentle approach. Emet Selch only got traction because the Garleans had been everyone else's punching bags for centuries and he was able to redirect that anger elsewhere. Going all in and smashing Garlea outright would have only made them believe they were back where they were before, and THAT would just cause them to fight even harder.

What happens next is up in the air but there are Garleans who starting to realize that what they were fed was wrong, in large part BECAUSE you show a compassionate approach (Jullus). While there are definitely times you need to be uncompromising and brutal, there are also times when you need to show mercy.
User avatar
TheFeniX
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4854
Joined: 2003-06-26 04:24pm
Location: Texas

Re: Final Fantasy XIV

Post by TheFeniX »

Darth Yan wrote: 2022-02-02 12:33am1 and 2.) He's the part of the warrior that loves fighting for the thrill of it and gaining satisfaction from overcoming obstacles. The difference is the warrior had companions as well as things that challenged him. Zenos never did due to his royal standing and prodigious skills; the fact that he was raised in a godawful environment with Emet Selch as his great grandfather and Varis as his father also didn't do wonders for his mental state. In that way yes he is a dark reflection of the hero. He's them if they had no obstacles and no real companions.
He is in no way that. The whole point, across multiple expacs, is that the WoL is "great" BECAUSE they overcome obstacles. It's literally a game mechanic: Breaking Limits. The ENTIRE drive of the WoL is helping people, their companions, PROTECTING others. Without the need, the WoL is literally just an adventurer, likely to wander and find whatever people she can help. The power the WoL has is driven by a NEED. You literally cannot and would not have one without the other.

Ignoring that, the WoL comes from incredibly humble beginnings, you are not all powerful and in fact are relying heavily on the Blessing of Light to further your goals. When it's stripped from you, the friendships you've built become even more important. This impacts the character because you know from the start, you need help. And then they spend 3 expacs HAMMERING that home.

Zenos is a total outlier here. He is reliant solely on himself and his own power. He came from high beginnings and was taught constantly to rely only on himself and that life (this life) does not matter. He's not a mirror to the WoL, he's a near polar opposite.

The WoL doesn't love fighting for the thrill of it. Enemies have SAID that about her, but they're wrong. The game constantly reminds you the toll this is taking on the WoL and how fuckin' tired she is. Her ability to DRIVE past that is what keeps her going, not bloodlust. Man, even Frey's whole point was "I'm TIRED of this shit. Let's just FUCK OFF, leave, leave them all behind. You and Me, let's just become some random adventurers again." And he is LITERALLY the WoL talking to herself.

There's an entire part of EW, where you're forced to walk. You know the part. It's impactful because it's a culmination of all the bullshit you've dealt with to get here. Know what isn't mentioned? This nebulous desire to fight and kill that somehow Zenos... blah blah. And YoshiP kind of throws this all in the trash heap to have one corny line to prove Zenos' point (a dialog option I did not select) to justify it post-mortem. If anything, that's a reflection of the player, not the WoL.
He also DOES have some growth. After Alisae calls him out he realizes he hasn't been considering what drives you, and even a sociopath like him realizes that on an intellectual level friends are supposed to consider what the other wants. He comes to realize that while you are driven by a love of fighting you're also driven by a desire to protect people and serve life, and that his incessant insistence on fighting you when you had bigger shit is why you rejected him. So in his own twisted way he decides to help you and is willing to walk away if that's what you want. And he's even implied to be the one who wishes the transporter comes back to help you.
It's almost like someone who is near our complete opposite would have to die and come back and take a million years to figure out what makes us tick. Meanwhile, Gaius was also big on moronic ranting, but he at least figured out the general aspect of what made of tick back in 2.0. And it made him angry, because we could have been "him." We have the ability, just not the same DRIVE he does.
3 and 4.) The Nazis do need to be crushed but like it or not there are times when you have to try a gentle approach.
Crushing an ideology != crushing a people. But you can't even get in a "you're starving to death because your glorious leader sacrificed you, all in order to pick a fight with me" line.
User avatar
Darth Yan
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2376
Joined: 2008-12-29 02:09pm
Location: California

Re: Final Fantasy XIV

Post by Darth Yan »

TheFeniX wrote: 2022-02-02 04:19pm
Darth Yan wrote: 2022-02-02 12:33am1 and 2.) He's the part of the warrior that loves fighting for the thrill of it and gaining satisfaction from overcoming obstacles. The difference is the warrior had companions as well as things that challenged him. Zenos never did due to his royal standing and prodigious skills; the fact that he was raised in a godawful environment with Emet Selch as his great grandfather and Varis as his father also didn't do wonders for his mental state. In that way yes he is a dark reflection of the hero. He's them if they had no obstacles and no real companions.
He is in no way that. The whole point, across multiple expacs, is that the WoL is "great" BECAUSE they overcome obstacles. It's literally a game mechanic: Breaking Limits. The ENTIRE drive of the WoL is helping people, their companions, PROTECTING others. Without the need, the WoL is literally just an adventurer, likely to wander and find whatever people she can help. The power the WoL has is driven by a NEED. You literally cannot and would not have one without the other.

Ignoring that, the WoL comes from incredibly humble beginnings, you are not all powerful and in fact are relying heavily on the Blessing of Light to further your goals. When it's stripped from you, the friendships you've built become even more important. This impacts the character because you know from the start, you need help. And then they spend 3 expacs HAMMERING that home.

Zenos is a total outlier here. He is reliant solely on himself and his own power. He came from high beginnings and was taught constantly to rely only on himself and that life (this life) does not matter. He's not a mirror to the WoL, he's a near polar opposite.

The WoL doesn't love fighting for the thrill of it. Enemies have SAID that about her, but they're wrong. The game constantly reminds you the toll this is taking on the WoL and how fuckin' tired she is. Her ability to DRIVE past that is what keeps her going, not bloodlust. Man, even Frey's whole point was "I'm TIRED of this shit. Let's just FUCK OFF, leave, leave them all behind. You and Me, let's just become some random adventurers again." And he is LITERALLY the WoL talking to herself.

There's an entire part of EW, where you're forced to walk. You know the part. It's impactful because it's a culmination of all the bullshit you've dealt with to get here. Know what isn't mentioned? This nebulous desire to fight and kill that somehow Zenos... blah blah. And YoshiP kind of throws this all in the trash heap to have one corny line to prove Zenos' point (a dialog option I did not select) to justify it post-mortem. If anything, that's a reflection of the player, not the WoL.
He also DOES have some growth. After Alisae calls him out he realizes he hasn't been considering what drives you, and even a sociopath like him realizes that on an intellectual level friends are supposed to consider what the other wants. He comes to realize that while you are driven by a love of fighting you're also driven by a desire to protect people and serve life, and that his incessant insistence on fighting you when you had bigger shit is why you rejected him. So in his own twisted way he decides to help you and is willing to walk away if that's what you want. And he's even implied to be the one who wishes the transporter comes back to help you.
It's almost like someone who is near our complete opposite would have to die and come back and take a million years to figure out what makes us tick. Meanwhile, Gaius was also big on moronic ranting, but he at least figured out the general aspect of what made of tick back in 2.0. And it made him angry, because we could have been "him." We have the ability, just not the same DRIVE he does.
3 and 4.) The Nazis do need to be crushed but like it or not there are times when you have to try a gentle approach.
Crushing an ideology != crushing a people. But you can't even get in a "you're starving to death because your glorious leader sacrificed you, all in order to pick a fight with me" line.
1.) The Warrior is multifaceted in so many ways. In some regards they're tired of fighting, and deeply annoyed at people who take them for granted. But they ALSO love fighting for the thrill of it (and given how many LP have the Warrior selecting THAT option it's safe to say many players agree whole heartedly.)

That's what I like about them. They're compassionate and like saving life, but they also like overcoming obstacles.....while also feeling the weight of the world on their shoulders.

2.) They DO acknowledge that about Zenos. The guy never really had any obstacles to overcome, and thus nothing to truly strive towards. That he was such a prodigy meant he couldn't really see anyone as his equal. The Warrior's the first time they've ever really had an equal, and the prospect of fighting you again is the first time he's REALLY had something to aspire for.

The warrior by contrast had to constantly overcome obstacles to get stronger, and their common origins meant they were able to form bonds with people in a way Zenos never could.

As on fan novelization puts it.

"For who Zenos was… was her if she never had limits to break."

That's why he admires you in so many ways. You're the first true equal he's ever had.
User avatar
Darth Yan
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2376
Joined: 2008-12-29 02:09pm
Location: California

Re: Final Fantasy XIV

Post by Darth Yan »

Another issue; being an adventurer DOES require some degree of thrill seeking and adventurism. And that does translate to at least somewhat of a love of combat. So yeah the warrior on some level DOES love combat even if in other areas they're sick of the cost. They also had to work to get stronger (Zenos WON their first two battles after all).

Zenos isn't wrong when he says there's a part of the warrior that likes combat. He freely admits that as you say they enjoy helping people and protecting others......but at the same time there is a part that enjoys combat

Zenos is both our mirror and our opposite.
User avatar
TheFeniX
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4854
Joined: 2003-06-26 04:24pm
Location: Texas

Re: Final Fantasy XIV

Post by TheFeniX »

The WoL has such little "bloodlust" in her, admittedly a nebulous concept, she's essentially immune to:
A. WAR rage, using is in it's "pure" form from essentially the beginning
B. The Eye of Niddhog's influence
C. The corrupting influence of Black Magic
D. pissing off the Elements and can near instantly access the higher powers of White Magic.

Other characters struggle massively under the weight of negative emotions and constantly look to "the rock" that is the WoL. Where is this bloodlust? There's never a wisp of it, Zenos rants about it, but he's full of shit. Emet murdered MILLIONS over the years. He is DIRECTLY responsible for most of the bad shit that has happened to you. Where is the smug smile at his death? Why does the WoL instead look like she's about to cry?

Yea, there's a dichotomy there of me fighting some low grade pirates and opening on them with Dragonfire Dive. Or the fact that the WoL's body count is in the thousands. But that's a GAMEPLAY contrivance. You either accept it for what it is or you literally cannot analyze most video games since reducing HPs to 0 is (better or worse) a core-concept of many. Yuna (FFX) has also laid low thousands of monsters/humans: is she bloodthirsty?

The list goes on and on and she's been through some insane bullshit, not the least of which having tons of her friends murdered and then, after "killing" said Head Murdering Asshole (Gaius) the, admittedly mute, WoL seems more sad about the whole ordeal.

Now, you could make the argument the Blessing of Light (Traveler's Ward) makes her immune to a lot of shit, since it's supposed to make her Aether incapable of being changed by external forces. Except, "LOLWHOOPS" Fandaniel and Zenos SOMEHOW figure out a way to soul jack her, with little to no explanation.

My beef with Zenos's whole everything is that he takes years of established lore and vomits on it so the devs can hold up some kind of mirror to the WoL that doesn't. fucking. exist. It's on par with WoW bullshit where they just asspull whatever lore they want, retconning shit when they want, all for cool cutscenes. It's cheap and lazy. Much like Ran'Jit: Zenos exists in a near total vacuum. After dealing with his bullshit for 3 expacs, I still have no emotional connection to him unlike tons of crying fans. I don't get his draw and I never will. He's that annoying road bump on your drive home you just have to keep putting up with every day. Worse, actually, he's like a speedbump on a 70mph highway: His shit clashes with everything else.

The level 80 PLD (GLD, really) quest had more emotional impact to me because Aldus just wants a scrap with you. Nothing on the line. And he takes one good look at you and says "I can't win." He understands instantly that the hardships you've dealt with and the drive you needed to conquer them puts you on a level way above him. And he's not all "HUR HUR, your bloodlust got you there."

People who see "bloodlust" (or whatever) in THEIR WoL are seeing it in themselves. Not the actual character. I DO, at times, get annoyed that MY WoL is NOT someone I have a lot of control over internally. But I don't go making shit up about her to fit my FanLore. Zenos is basically Kreia (KOTOR2): someone who sees themselves in others because they hate themselves and the world and want someone to "get" them. So they impress their own failings on the Protag/Player. They both spout mostly stupid bullshit to appeal to edgy teenagers and man-children, but are saved by stellar voice acting.

Dear God, Estinien would make a better foil to Zenos than the WoL.
User avatar
LadyTevar
White Mage
White Mage
Posts: 21322
Joined: 2003-02-12 10:59pm

Re: Final Fantasy XIV

Post by LadyTevar »

TheFeniX wrote: 2022-02-03 03:40pm Emet murdered MILLIONS over the years. He is DIRECTLY responsible for most of the bad shit that has happened to you. Where is the smug smile at his death? Why does the WoL instead look like she's about to cry?
Because the storyline make me actually CARE about the old bastard. I knew who he was, what he was, I knew he was going to screw me over at some point. But godsdammit he was just... so... honest(?) about it, and suddenly I'm chatting with him just to hear his opinion. And then he shows us before and after the Final Days. :(
Dear God, Estinien would make a better foil to Zenos than the WoL.
He is the DRG storyline foil, so you're right there.

I honestly think they were just trying to make Zenos as hated as possible. From the bitching on here, it seems they managed to hit that mark.
Image
Librium Arcana, Where Gamers Play!
Nitram, slightly high on cough syrup: Do you know you're beautiful?
Me: Nope, that's why I have you around to tell me.
Nitram: You -are- beautiful. Anyone tries to tell you otherwise kill them.
"A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP" -- Leonard Nimoy, last Tweet
User avatar
TheFeniX
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4854
Joined: 2003-06-26 04:24pm
Location: Texas

Re: Final Fantasy XIV

Post by TheFeniX »

LadyTevar wrote: 2022-02-03 06:19pmBecause the storyline make me actually CARE about the old bastard. I knew who he was, what he was, I knew he was going to screw me over at some point. But godsdammit he was just... so... honest(?) about it, and suddenly I'm chatting with him just to hear his opinion. And then he shows us before and after the Final Days. :(
This is exactly my point. I don't like Hades (in the context of "let's be bros, bro") because he views me as a "half-man," barely talking ant who flails about believing it's sentient, believing it has a right to exist, at the expense of "real people." HOWEVER, I 100% understand his view, even if I don't agree with it. Put in his shoes? It's a thought experiment worth spending time on. And they showed us that.

Zenos, by contrast, is "LOOK AT ME! PAY ATTENTION TO ME! I am VERY STRONK!" Yea, he makes sense. But I don't.... really care to understand the motivations, to waste brainpower (what little I would need) to pander to Zenos' childlike mentality. He's how a 12 year old writes fanfiction antagonists. He's a shallow waste of time in a story with otherwise deep characters. As "annoying" as Fandaniel is/was: he's way more interesting than Zenos.

I would bet money Ran'Jit OG had a much bigger part in ShB than he did. And then he had to stack up against Emet and even Vauthry. And they cut him down to almost nothing because "Wow this character is stupid trash compared to all the other shit we have going on." Should have done the same to Zenos.
I honestly think they were just trying to make Zenos as hated as possible. From the bitching on here, it seems they managed to hit that mark.
I "hate" Gaius. As a character. They put in the time to make me WANT to hate him. To build that bridge as part of suspension of disbelief to make me hate a fictional character. My "hate" for Zenos is because he's a shit character who pulls dumb shit out of his ass and rants MORE moronic shit, all due to writer's fiat. They didn't build the bridge. Take from him whatever you want, to me he's boring. And when I'm forced to pander to his whims for gameplay sake, I'm frustrated. He's the FFXIV equivalent of the High School bully every movie seems to have to put into for easy emotional gets for the protag.

And no, based on some YoshiP et al Q&A sessions, they WANT you to empathize (for lack of a better term) with Zenos. The same way Blizzard wanted me to GAF about Sylvannas' motivations for some stupid reason. Which, hilarously, Blizzard IMO put in WAY more time trying to do so, but also constantly showed how much of a POS backstabbing asshole she is/was.
User avatar
TheFeniX
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4854
Joined: 2003-06-26 04:24pm
Location: Texas

Re: Final Fantasy XIV

Post by TheFeniX »

EDIT: I need to point out. My actual issue with Sylvanas isn't that she's a POS. Pieces of shit are fine. She's a shit character because in order to allow her dumb shit to happen, literally everyone puts on the idiot cap when she's scheming.
Post Reply