Wow. Vista is even worse than I feared

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haard
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Re: Wow. Vista is even worse than I feared

Post by haard »

Ryan Thunder wrote:
haard wrote:If I can find a guy who has correctly predicted Swedish winter severity for the past thirty years, obviously he can predict the weather accurately, right?
Because being able to predict the weather is totally the similar to not having problems with a commonly-used computer/OS combo. :roll:
Because of the sample size of 1 (one) and the post-fact picking of that one sample, the analogy is valid.
Ryan Thunder wrote:
Started to answer the rest of your questions, but could not be bothered since they're not really relevant when the thread itself provides this:
Well, then, let's see what I've done to "make" Vista useable.
You... really don't get it, do you? That your system works fine does not imply that the software is alright. By that logic, Warrior Kings was working fine, since it worked on some systems (although it was horribly broken on most systems), and Fallout 3 is not broken because some setups does not have any problems (although others cannot play the game at all).

Ryan Thunder wrote:
I've not used Vista other than having to make a (Java SE!) application compatible with it and troubleshooting for others, since I use XP and Linux at home and Solaris and a virtual XP box at work. I'll not migrate until the colleagues that have done so stop whining.
Which will probably be never, because people always whine about software they don't fully understand, yet can't be bothered to read the documentation for. I see these people at the office where I work. They blunder their way through the days until they finally get some kind of broken, hand-waving notion of how its meant to be used, at which point they call themselves "experts", and then proceeed to wail and moan about "Microsoft quality" when the new system comes around with an updated interface. Really, it'd be hilarious to watch if it weren't so pathetic. :lol:
Yes, working at a software consultant firm, my colleagues and customers are all MS-bashing computer noobs, clearly :roll:
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Re: Wow. Vista is even worse than I feared

Post by Darth Wong »

Durandal wrote:
Ryan Thunder wrote:What, is it too much for Joe Average to at least read parts of the bloody manual on an expensive and highly-complex system?
If you have meaningful professional standards, then yes, it's a bug if users need to visit the manual to find out how to find or use the feature. All those little concessions made in the name of "just put it in the manual" from each component pile up, and they keep piling up. Until you get an operating system like Windows, where half the UI is defined by "just read the manual".
Indeed. If I want to use an operating system where I need to pore over manuals in order to make things work the way I want, I'll use Linux. It's free, so I don't expect the kind of intuitive interface and ease of use that Microsoft has been advertising as a Windows feature for the last decade. But when I use Windows, then yeah, I expect that. They're charging for it, so I expect it to be there.
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Re: Wow. Vista is even worse than I feared

Post by Braedley »

To expand on this, it was always intuitive to me on how to show every workgroup on a network in XP. It took me a few clicks (something like network -> veiw workgroup computers -> veiw entire network), but I could always get there. I still don't know how to do it in Vista (not to mention that networking itself seemed rather broken when I last tried it). Maybe it's my 5 years of cognitive investment in XP, but Vista seems a lot less intuitive in areas that are rather important to me. Still, I have very little cognitive investment in Mac OSX (maybe a grand total of 6 solid months) and a year and a half in Ubuntu, but I feel that even 2 full years on Vista wouldn't let me do things faster or easier than I can in any of the three systems mentioned.
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Re: Wow. Vista is even worse than I feared

Post by Stark »

Darth Wong wrote:
If you have meaningful professional standards, then yes, it's a bug if users need to visit the manual to find out how to find or use the feature. All those little concessions made in the name of "just put it in the manual" from each component pile up, and they keep piling up. Until you get an operating system like Windows, where half the UI is defined by "just read the manual".
Indeed. If I want to use an operating system where I need to pore over manuals in order to make things work the way I want, I'll use Linux. It's free, so I don't expect the kind of intuitive interface and ease of use that Microsoft has been advertising as a Windows feature for the last decade. But when I use Windows, then yeah, I expect that. They're charging for it, so I expect it to be there.
Even better, many people don't HAVE a manual, just a laptop in a box, so all those concessions just became hard walls for anyone trying to do stuff. Particularly when some of the UI issues are because Microsoft changed the way they arrange or deal with something for dubious benefit. If you've designed your OS for a well-educated population who read and understood the manual, you're dumb.

As Braedley says, OSX is 'different' from XP, but much easier to get to grips with. I've been using Vista for ages and I don't know the 'quick way' to get to many network options that were a few clicks away in XP (and exposed in a single window in OSX instead of half a dozen as in XP/Vista).
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Re: Wow. Vista is even worse than I feared

Post by Beowulf »

Braedley wrote:To expand on this, it was always intuitive to me on how to show every workgroup on a network in XP. It took me a few clicks (something like network -> veiw workgroup computers -> veiw entire network), but I could always get there. I still don't know how to do it in Vista (not to mention that networking itself seemed rather broken when I last tried it). Maybe it's my 5 years of cognitive investment in XP, but Vista seems a lot less intuitive in areas that are rather important to me. Still, I have very little cognitive investment in Mac OSX (maybe a grand total of 6 solid months) and a year and a half in Ubuntu, but I feel that even 2 full years on Vista wouldn't let me do things faster or easier than I can in any of the three systems mentioned.
Network window:
click down arrow by workgroup
select group by
items are grouped by which workgroup they are in

On my computer, I have "Workgroup" and "Unspecified". You probably shouldn't have multiple workgroups on a network anyway.
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Re: Wow. Vista is even worse than I feared

Post by Braedley »

You would if the network you're on is resnet, and each workgroup is for a different residence. But thanks for tip.
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Re: Wow. Vista is even worse than I feared

Post by Singular Intellect »

I for one have never read a Windows manual and have no problems figuring out their layouts and system operations.

But then I was raised around computers from the Commodore 64 era. :P
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Re: Wow. Vista is even worse than I feared

Post by Stark »

Do you think you're funny? Most of the informed G&C posters are old enough to have used C64s. So what? How does that make poor UI and layout design less poor, because experienced people can nut it out anyway? One might say that it would be better to simply make the layout an UI simpler so this additional step isn't necessary even for the experienced and novice users (ie 99% of the market) aren't shut out.
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Re: Wow. Vista is even worse than I feared

Post by Ryan Thunder »

Stark wrote:Even better, many people don't HAVE a manual, just a laptop in a box,
Thanks for reminding me that Help+Online Help doesn't exist.

Oh, wait...
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Re: Wow. Vista is even worse than I feared

Post by Stark »

That's the funniest shit I've ever heard. You think the famously hopeless Windows online help is a replacement for a) sensible, easy to use layout and/or b) a professional printed manual? You think the ability to look up solutions online makes poor layout and design okay? People like you are why software is so opaque. 'Oh who cares, just throw it in the online help somewhere, people will dig it out' is NOT good design practice. 'Sure our software has barriers to entry and an illogical layout, but users can just look at this third-party website or trawl these forums to learn'! :roll:

The best approach is to simply design software with actual, real users in mind, and not super-educated, hyper-motivated professional experts who are prepared to research for an hour to do something, and not making excuses why it's okay because you can clumsily work around it. When most users of your software have no idea about most of it's features, that means you as a designer have failed, regardless of what mythical level of education, competence of research you expect from them. It's the appeal of shit like OSX that it's easy to use even for 'normal people', ie most of the human race.
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Re: Wow. Vista is even worse than I feared

Post by Lusankya »

I also hear that online help isn't particularly helpful it your problem's preventing you from accessing the net, or if you don't have internet access for whatever reason.
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Re: Wow. Vista is even worse than I feared

Post by Stark »

It's worth noting that issues people are talking about here aren't 'what is the TCP/IP stack' or 'exactly how is memory managed in Vista re Superfetch' or other technical issues, but 'where the christ is the option for abc' or 'how do I do xyz thing' and other layout, UI issues. For instance, Vista has an excellent search bar in the start menu, but unlike OSX it's not as closely linked to the control panel dialogs and can't really be used to find the right window to perform a task in. Many tasks require shit spread across many different, layered dialogs, which is inefficent and confusing to everyone, even professionals. The way Vista handles network 'locations' (which it decides based on routers) and splits firewall rules can be very confusing for a normal person who changes his router, and the solutions are clearly explained NOWHERE.

These are pure UI, layout or documenation issues, and not 'user education' issues that exist solely because users are dumb chumps who expect their computers to 'just work'.
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Re: Wow. Vista is even worse than I feared

Post by Crayz9000 »

Yeah, I'd say that sums up the majority of my complaints.

That said, Windows developers suck. At least, the corporate ones... I'm pointing my finger at you, Intuit and Symantec.

Goddamned kriffing hell, you freaking pile of steaming donkey excrement, you Windows 3.1-spawned kludge kept alive with incessant half-assed, barely functional and of dubious utility patches. Those who have experienced it know what I'm talking about, and its incredible level of sheer suckiness has penetrated even to Linux with the introduction of a Linux based server daemon. I know the developers are trying, but years of bad decisions were already made and now can't be easily undone in the name of backwards compatibility. I'm talking about Quickbooks, the only software that I've run into so far where the only solution to user exclusivity and locking is restarting the server process on Linux (on Windows, it actually required restarting the server for some unknown reason).

And don't even get me started on Norton Security Shite, which is the only Vista capable program also capable of preventing the printing software I have to support at work from actually printing to TCP/IP based printers via random disconnects and frequent Winsock errors.

OK, rant over.
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Re: Wow. Vista is even worse than I feared

Post by Singular Intellect »

Stark wrote:Do you think you're funny? Most of the informed G&C posters are old enough to have used C64s. So what?
I was merely pointing out a possible reason why I never have trouble with Windows, which you apparently disagree with. Fair enough.

For me Windows is remarkably easy to use, I've never had virus problems, stability is great...what's not to like?

If a user doesn't have a clue what a CPU is or how to plug in a mouse, well yeah, I guess Windows itself is a monster of confusion.
How does that make poor UI and layout design less poor, because experienced people can nut it out anyway?
Just what is poor about the interface, anyhow? Buttons you have to read as opposed to big picture buttons?
One might say that it would be better to simply make the layout an UI simpler so this additional step isn't necessary even for the experienced and novice users (ie 99% of the market) aren't shut out.
Just how much simplier does it have to get? What is it about Windows that is so damn hard for so many people to use and work with?

Everything I need and want to do is practically plug and play, whether it's games, applications, external devices like digital cameras, printers, webcam, etc.

For fuck's sake my friend's ten year old daughter has no problem figuring out Windows, loading up almost anything she wants, etc. If she can do it, why is so hard for everyone else?
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Re: Wow. Vista is even worse than I feared

Post by charlemagne »

Bubble Boy wrote: Just what is poor about the interface, anyhow? Buttons you have to read as opposed to big picture buttons?
Once you know where to find all options and settings you need, it's no problem, but if you don't know where to find settings for the task at hand, it can be and IS confusing as hell. I am by now means a "windows noob", but I remember that setting up my first simple wifi network (router, 1 desktop, 1 notebook) was a pain in the ass and anything but intuitive on XP. Settings are basically hidden and not presented where you start looking, and you have to go through a couple of different windows for no apparent reason but "oh let's slap that into a new window".

Windows may have a simple enough UI to allow for easy "let's start this game" or "let's fire up word" but it is NOT simple enough to configure and set up with the ease it should be as advertised. And Vista is no better than XP. I cringe every time my dad has a computer problem on his new notebook and I have to try to figure out things Vista hides in different places than XP. If the UI was so wonderful this wouldn't be a problem at all.
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Re: Wow. Vista is even worse than I feared

Post by Stark »

Bubble Boy wrote:I was merely pointing out a possible reason why I never have trouble with Windows, which you apparently disagree with. Fair enough.

For me Windows is remarkably easy to use, I've never had virus problems, stability is great...what's not to like?

If a user doesn't have a clue what a CPU is or how to plug in a mouse, well yeah, I guess Windows itself is a monster of confusion.
I couldn't leave this alone. Do you even know what we're talking about? We're not talking about playing games and using IM, or viruses or stabilty, you haddock; we're talking about the layout of the UI for essential functions being needlessly worse than XP (which was already pretty bad). Go configure a complex network. Change your router. OMG!

Your outrageous statement that a user of Vista needs to understand how computers work is EXACTLY the point. That's like saying someone can't drive a car if they don't understand how fuel injection works. This ivory-tower nonsense is why some software is designed for mythical creatures like 'motivated, educated professionals who are prepared to invest hours of time mastering the needlessly obtuse UI' instead of 'regular people who want to manage their computer and go back to fucking their wives'.
Just what is poor about the interface, anyhow? Buttons you have to read as opposed to big picture buttons?
You have no idea what anyone's talking about, and yet you're arguing anyway. Maybe you should get a clue or shut the fuck up - some of us here work with these OSs daily and have for years, and if you're going to tell me the Windows layout for many basic tasks isn't fucking ridiculous you're blind, lying or ignorant. Hurr hurr, dumb peeple want bigger buttons hurr hurr!
Just how much simplier does it have to get? What is it about Windows that is so damn hard for so many people to use and work with?
You also can't read; people have been laying out specific problems all through this thread. It's nothing to do with nerd-power strawman nonsense like 'omg can't install teh gamzz' and 'wtf virus'; it's simply comparing (say) the networking config in OSX to that in Vista and saying 'wow, Vista sucks'.
Everything I need and want to do is practically plug and play, whether it's games, applications, external devices like digital cameras, printers, webcam, etc.
And... so? You're a consumer user who thinks he's on some ivory tower of knowledge and skill. So what?
For fuck's sake my friend's ten year old daughter has no problem figuring out Windows, loading up almost anything she wants, etc. If she can do it, why is so hard for everyone else?
Cool, can I get your friend's ten year old daughter to work with my firewall rules, merge some network locations, handle a bunch of groups and shares and moderate the niggles with UAC? Oh wait no, you think 'play a game' and 'install 7zip' = 'can use OS'. And of course, the unspoken retarded point that if someone CAN do something, then it must be EASY or CONVENIENT to do so - which is of course utter nonsense. I can do everything I need to do in Vista (which trust me, is a way longer list than yours) and doubtless so can Mike - it's just A PAIN IN THE CUNT to do it, because the UI layout is poorly thought out.

It's notable that in GnC, educated professionals often trade tips and shortcuts, and a giant industry of literature exists for just this purpose. A clever man might realise that that kinda suggests even these professionals with all their time, training and motivation can be unaware of certain features, capabilities or paths through the UI, which is pretty much the definition of 'fucking terrible UI'. I've said it before - if you want to do something in OSX, you type it into search and nine times out of ten it directly links you to the actual dialog box involved. In Vista/XP/2000/98/95/etc, you might have to click around a maybe a dozen windows to find the one magical place where the task can be done.

But hey, that doesn't matter, because some guy can casually use it no problem! :roll:
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Re: Wow. Vista is even worse than I feared

Post by Braedley »

Stark wrote:It's notable that in GnC, educated professionals often trade tips and shortcuts, and a giant industry of literature exists for just this purpose. A clever man might realise that that kinda suggests even these professionals with all their time, training and motivation can be unaware of certain features, capabilities or paths through the UI, which is pretty much the definition of 'fucking terrible UI'. I've said it before - if you want to do something in OSX, you type it into search and nine times out of ten it directly links you to the actual dialog box involved. In Vista/XP/2000/98/95/etc, you might have to click around a maybe a dozen windows to find the one magical place where the task can be done.

But hey, that doesn't matter, because some guy can casually use it no problem! :roll:
I want to reiterate this. Every day, without fail, someone at work will say "cool, I didn't know you could do that!" 99% of the machines that come through our doors are either XP or Vista machines. As individuals, we may know a lot about the machines we're working on, but by no means do we know everything. However, our combined knowledge is vast enough to solve nearly every one of our customers problems, and the problems we can't solve are usually due to the fact that we're not about to solder a new north bridge onto a laptop mobo or don't have the equipment to clean spilt wine (yes, wine) off of a keyboard. If we worked on OSX machines, we may still have those "cool" moments, but they'd be far more infrequent, and would usually happen after the fact.
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Re: Wow. Vista is even worse than I feared

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I think that a lot of Windows UI problems can be traced back to over-reliance on the right click. Don't get me wrong, I like having a second mouse button. But it's one of Apple's HI guidelines that you shouldn't make functionality exclusively available through the contextual menu. Put it there as a shortcut, but make sure that's not the only place you can find it. Why does Apple recommend this? Because all their machines ship with one-button mice, and you shouldn't make the assumption that users (a) know what right-clicking is or (b) will run around right-clicking in your application until they find what they're looking for.

I know Apple always gets shit for their machines lacking a second mouse button, but I've come to think it's actually a decent idea. When I was working in tech support, I can't tell you the number of people I talked to who didn't know what I was talking about when I said "right click here". To many people, clicking is just clicking. So if you bury functionality in a right-click menu, some users will just never find it. And unfortunately, that's exactly what many Windows developers do. I've seen Windows applications that use the contextual menu for one option, and there's nowhere else you can find it.
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Re: Wow. Vista is even worse than I feared

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Darth Wong wrote:I'm sure some WinGeek will come along to tell me about all of the "memory architecture improvements" or something, but holy shit, this OS sucks. I just got a Lenovo PC with Vista preinstalled, and it's an absolute piece of shit. It's constantly bugging me to allow or disallow every goddamned thing I do, and doesn't remember previous times I've approved it. Every time I close Firefox, it tells me that it crashed and that it's trying to analyze the problem. When I put in a DVD and then ejected it before WinDVD could start up, the whole goddamned thing locked up.

What is this shit? Is this a typical experience?
I got a Lenovo laptop recently, too (probably for similar reasons?) and I didn't even bother with Vista--I just paid $75.00 extra to "downgrade" to Windows XP Professional over Vista Basic. I don't regret it at all.
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Re: Wow. Vista is even worse than I feared

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

phongn wrote: Something isn't right there, since my 1.8GHz dual-core Opteron with 2GB of RAM (since upgraded to 4GB) and a GF7800 runs Vista perfectly fine. I can perceive no difference compared to when I had XP on that machine. Vista also reports RAM use in a significantly different (and IIRC more accurate) manner than XP, so I'd be wary of any comparisons. Also, what the hell are you doing fucking around with services? Don't. If you want to turn off UAC, so be it, but the default service set is not problematic.
Windows viruses love hiding under svchost.exe like nothing else in the world (I swear like 70% of those I've ever found on winboxes were running as svchost.exe), so he probably has a virus.
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Re: Wow. Vista is even worse than I feared

Post by phongn »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: Windows viruses love hiding under svchost.exe like nothing else in the world (I swear like 70% of those I've ever found on winboxes were running as svchost.exe), so he probably has a virus.
I know, though under Vista the way the service-host process is handled is rather different than earlier NT OSes.
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Re: Wow. Vista is even worse than I feared

Post by Havok »

Late to the party and not much to add, but as far as Firefox crashing and giving the funky analyzing screen, well I just got that a few times in the last couple of weeks since I installed the newest version of Firefox. Before then, never saw it once. So maybe it is just an issues with the latest version. I almost want to say I remember getting that on my work computer as well that is still running XP, and that I also upgraded to the latest version of FF, but I'm not 100% on that.
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Re: Wow. Vista is even worse than I feared

Post by Edi »

I'll second Durandal on what a fucking pain in the ass it is to get people to manage even the very basic things like finding the fucking Windows Start Menu (of whatever Windows version) over the phone, never mind things like right-clicking or anything else.

The Windows Vista UI is fucked up from start to finish in its basic configuration, which is what 99% of the users stick with. Whoever designed it should be fired and legally prevented from working in the IT industry for the rest of his life. It just sucks that badly most of the time, though some things are somewhat easier to find than in XP. But the rest of it is just so crap that any minor improvements are buried under a ton of shit.
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Re: Wow. Vista is even worse than I feared

Post by Durandal »

Edi wrote:I'll second Durandal on what a fucking pain in the ass it is to get people to manage even the very basic things like finding the fucking Windows Start Menu (of whatever Windows version) over the phone, never mind things like right-clicking or anything else.
To Microsoft's credit, they stopped calling it the "Start Menu" in Vista, since that was where the shutdown options were. This led to my mom's famous criticism, "I have to go to Start to stop? That's stupid."
The Windows Vista UI is fucked up from start to finish in its basic configuration, which is what 99% of the users stick with. Whoever designed it should be fired and legally prevented from working in the IT industry for the rest of his life. It just sucks that badly most of the time, though some things are somewhat easier to find than in XP. But the rest of it is just so crap that any minor improvements are buried under a ton of shit.
That's the thing, though. It wasn't just one guy. Windows is a perfect case study of Conway's Law, which states that organizations which design systems are constrained to produce systems which are copies of the communication structure of those organizations. As evidence of how Conway's Law applies to Windows, I offer this and this.

You can tell, just by using the UI, that Windows was designed by committee. Everyone wanted to have his fingers in every little pie. So you wind up with idiotic things like the Windows Network control panel UI, which is just god awful and hasn't gotten any better. When you want to modify your network settings, you have to get Properties on your network card (why?), then choose "Internet Protocol (TCP/IP)" from a list of items that includes "Client for Microsoft Networks" (what?), "File and Print Sharing for Microsoft Networks" (again, what?) and maybe even "QoS Packet Scheduler" (double what?). How any of these things are related to my IP address, I have no idea.

What happened there was the folks in charge of configuring shit like Active Directory probably said, "Hey, we'd like to have a little shortcut for getting to some of our settings, and the UI guys wouldn't give us our own control panel. Could you just throw it in that items list?" And someone working on the QoS Packet Scheduler (whatever that is) thought that his thing just had to be in there because it would make 0.01% of tech support cases either, so it made it in there.

My other favorite example is the Vista window titlebar. Someone said, "Hey, we have to be more like Mac OS X. So let's make our windows partially transparent to give it some visual fluff." Then someone else said, "We want people to notice this. So let's make it, like, 30% transparent."

Then someone noticed, "Hey, text is hard to read against this." That second person then piped back in and said, "No problem! You know, the Chinese word for 'problem' is the same as the one for 'opportunity'. So let's take this opportunity to show off more UI effects. We'll just give the window a frosted glass effect, like a shower window. That'll make the text easier to read."

Then someone said, "Text is still hard to read against some backgrounds. Maybe we should just--" That second person then said, "No! Remember the Chinese proverb! We can just use another effect. Let's put a yellow glow around the text. That'll make it really easy to read!"

And it was done. That's probably how one of the ugliest window designs ever came to be.
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Darth Wong
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Re: Wow. Vista is even worse than I feared

Post by Darth Wong »

Durandal wrote:I think that a lot of Windows UI problems can be traced back to over-reliance on the right click. Don't get me wrong, I like having a second mouse button. But it's one of Apple's HI guidelines that you shouldn't make functionality exclusively available through the contextual menu. Put it there as a shortcut, but make sure that's not the only place you can find it. Why does Apple recommend this? Because all their machines ship with one-button mice, and you shouldn't make the assumption that users (a) know what right-clicking is or (b) will run around right-clicking in your application until they find what they're looking for.

I know Apple always gets shit for their machines lacking a second mouse button, but I've come to think it's actually a decent idea. When I was working in tech support, I can't tell you the number of people I talked to who didn't know what I was talking about when I said "right click here". To many people, clicking is just clicking. So if you bury functionality in a right-click menu, some users will just never find it. And unfortunately, that's exactly what many Windows developers do. I've seen Windows applications that use the contextual menu for one option, and there's nowhere else you can find it.
I hate the Vista UI but I can't blame right-clicking. The problem with right-clicking is not that they rely on it (if every single PC mouse has a second button, it's quite reasonable to rely on it) or that people have to learn it (it's not really hard to learn). The problem with right-clicking is that its effects are not consistent. And it's not just the apps; it's Windows itself. People expect to be able to manipulate everything that has to do with a file or app by right-clicking on it, and if you bury a lot of features far away, they get irritated. If there's some fucking UAC bullshit that demands confirmation every goddamned time you run an app, they expect to be able to navigate to a menu to turn that off, by right-clicking on the application. Otherwise, what's the point of the right-click? If it's not a shortcut to be able to access all relevant settings pertaining to a file, then what's the use of it? Some kind of Redmond gambling game, where you right-click and roll dice to see what bullshit options they decided to make available to you?

That's my problem with Windows right-clicking: I go the opposite way from you and say that it's not powerful enough. Yes, it would be good to be able to access settings without using right-click, but if you're going to sell right-click as a way of doing things, then you'd better put all the damned options where you can get to them through right-click. I hate it when I right-click on something and I see a couple of totally useless options.
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