STGOD: A Dead Art?

[SirNitram]

Thanks for not reading the previous posts on the matter, Thirdfain. Makes a guy feel like his Moderator duties are being taken seriously.

[Starglider]

The number of hulls is unimportant, detecting it's power output will display that it is in fact a fairly paltry force, albeit a surprising and threatening one.

Firstly, it takes a lot of power to throw 100,000 kilometer-long lumps of matter around no matter what they are, and particularly to FTL them. Secondly, why would power output be high when they're not actually doing anything? Ship reactors don't run at 100% when they're not in combat, why would they, that would just produce lots of pointless waste heat. You have no idea what the maximum power output is and won't until you see them in situations that actually demand maximum power. Thirdly, how are you detecting 'power output' anyway? Any kind of neutron or neutrino flux (from fusion) is going to be completely drowned out by solar emissions.

[Nephtys]

My handwavium possibility. Since nobody ever saw that particular drive type before, it could be confused for something else and discussed in scientific circles of whatever.

Now that the big mob has de-warped right at the Sun, you have a lot of data on the signature and can ID it in the future at ranges comparable to everyone else.

Sound good?

Additionally, I think any magical 'power level detector' is rather lame and silly. It's a sort of meta-knowledge device. The fact that a ship is FTL anyway will probably place each individual within your general order of magnitude in generation. What I figured was the equalizer was that my ships are about as accurate as musket fire in space, or have weapons that are rather awkward to use when concentrated in a big mob from mutual interference (such as ramming ships, or rear ships having no LOS for their weapons).

Also, why are you posting that some massive force hasn't arrived yet? When well. Everyone is reacting that it did. It's not like it's making much of a difference with it just milling around Sol for a little bit.

[Starglider]

What I figured was the equalizer was that my ships are about as accurate as musket fire in space, or have weapons that are rather awkward to use when concentrated in a big mob from mutual interference (such as ramming ships, or rear ships having no LOS for their weapons).

It would take roughly 10,000 of your ships to match a single standard battleship. Rationalising that kind of ratio requires no armour, no shielding, horrible targetting and barely nuke class weaponry. Even if 1000 of your ships tried to ram a battleship in quick succession, they'd only do minor damage, so I think they must come apart under even PD fire at close range and single main weapon hits at long range.

Incidentally I'll laugh if you make it to near-earth orbit because even if they get completely blown to hell, 100,000 kilometer long ships will make for a hell of a lot of incoming debris. Defence fleets and platforms will be working overtime to fragment/vaporise the stuff sufficiently that it doesn't make it through the atmosphere.

EDIT: And yes Thirdfain is metagaming for all he's worth with that last post, and for no actual reason that I can see. You're trying to remove Nephy's one chance to be impressive, why bother, you'll find out that they're made of cardboard as soon as you shoot them.

[Thirdfain]

Also, why are you posting that some massive force hasn't arrived yet? When well. Everyone is reacting that it did. It's not like it's making much of a difference with it just milling around Sol for a little bit.

Because of the mod decision that we'd have hours of forwarning. Duh.

Additionally, I think any magical 'power level detector' is rather lame and silly. It's a sort of meta-knowledge device.

So, all the sensors in-game are mass detectors? I was under the impression that they covered heat output, power output, and other such varied and sundry things. "Lame and Silly" or obvious?

Why should you have a fleet which registers on sensors as being VASTLY more powerful than it actually is, for no points expenditure? That would be a HUGE tactical advantage- imagine, every early warning network in a nation going off, reporting a huge battlefleet incoming- except most of them are your crap-ships, while 1 is your allies' real assault force.

Not cool.

My handwavium possibility. Since nobody ever saw that particular drive type before, it could be confused for something else and discussed in scientific circles of whatever.

Now that the big mob has de-warped right at the Sun, you have a lot of data on the signature and can ID it in the future at ranges comparable to everyone else.

Sorry, all FTL is detectable by early warning nets. I think we made that clear, differences in the fluff were just that, differences in the fluff.

Secondly, why would power output be high when they're not actually doing anything? Ship reactors don't run at 100% when they're not in combat, why would they, that would just produce lots of pointless waste heat. You have no idea what the maximum power output is and won't until you see them in situations that actually demand maximum power.

Nephty's civilization has power generation tech comparable to everyone else's. She doesn't get to have a fleet which requires massively more energy than the rest of us to move; such technology is outside the scope of the game.

Thirdly, how are you detecting 'power output' anyway? Any kind of neutron or neutrino flux (from fusion) is going to be completely drowned out by solar emissions.

On the contrary, since we will be tracking the fleet in-system for a couple hours with what is probably the best early warning net in known space, we will have had time to monitor the magnitude of it's signatures for a while- and would have been sensing the potency of the enemy ships long before they are between earth and the sun.

The matter is simple. I don't care how many hulls are in Nephty's fleet, but if it allows her to magically simulate a FAR more powerful force than she actually has, for zero point expenditure, then I am afraid that would go completely against the basic tenets of this STGOD.

Thanks for not reading the previous posts on the matter, Thirdfain. Makes a guy feel like his Moderator duties are being taken seriously.

I've read every post on the last 2 pages. Perhaps you'd like to illuminate me?

[Thirdfain]

Incidentally I'll laugh if you make it to near-earth orbit because even if they get completely blown to hell, 100,000 kilometer long ships will make for a hell of a lot of incoming debris. Defence fleets and platforms will be working overtime to fragment/vaporise the stuff sufficiently that it doesn't make it through the atmosphere.

Two words: Point Equivalence. Her ships, kilometer-long they may be, are essentially made of toilet paper. They'll be no more or less of an environmental threat than anyone else's.

[SirNitram]

Also, why are you posting that some massive force hasn't arrived yet? When well. Everyone is reacting that it did. It's not like it's making much of a difference with it just milling around Sol for a little bit.

Because of the mod decision that we'd have hours of forwarning. Duh.

And where is the bit saying 'Retcon, please repost and demand we do the whole thing over'?

Thanks for not reading the previous posts on the matter, Thirdfain. Makes a guy feel like his Moderator duties are being taken seriously.

I've read every post on the last 2 pages. Perhaps you'd like to illuminate me?

Here.

[Imperial Overlord]

I have to say that thousands of ships of unknown design and origin are going to make my guys nervous at the first encounter, even if they have a low energy emissions. It is still thousands of ships and we don't know yet if they are spoofing our sensors somehow or aren't at full power or something like that. It's a big fucking fleet of unknown ships.

[Thirdfain]

People are way too metagame thinking on this. All of these ships have the ability to leap to FTL and move at comparable speeds. There will be literally no reason not to think they're incredibly dangerous until the first exchange of blows.

And be honest for a moment: Will your officers be the ones who will bravely engage thousand-to-one odds?

Poor modding, man. You are giving her a HUGE tactical advantage for NO cost- essentially, a perfect decoy system which allows her fleets to seem much more powerful than they actually are. I hate to say it, but I think it was a mistake. We can play from here, but I personally think it would be a VERY bad idea to have the weakness of this fleet be anything but obvious.

To give you guys an idea, Nephty's in-system fleet is worth (at quick glance) no more than about 300 points. That is miniscule; a single Polish fleet corps would be more than sufficient to wipe it out. To have it appear as a major attack with NO expenditure of points on ECM or decoys is, frankly, crap.

-edit-

Not to say that we shouldn't all be scared and mobilizing and stuff, but it should be immediately obvious that this is not some earth-crushing force, and in fact we are dealing with an alien civilization with vastly inferior ship-building technology.

[Starglider]

Secondly, why would power output be high when they're not actually doing anything? Ship reactors don't run at 100% when they're not in combat, why would they, that would just produce lots of pointless waste heat. You have no idea what the maximum power output is and won't until you see them in situations that actually demand maximum power.

Nephty's civilization has power generation tech comparable to everyone else's.

Even if that were true, it would be OOC knowledge.

She doesn't get to have a fleet which requires massively more energy than the rest of us to move; such technology is outside the scope of the game.

If true, that implies that the energy required to move ships at FTL and STL is minute compared to combat demands. You're seriously proposing that 10,000 ships have the same combined power output as one of your cruisers. Since your cruiser doesn't move 10,000 times faster, it means that your cruiser's engines need a maximum of 0.01% of their power output for engines even at top speed, which strikes me as pretty silly. Even if /that/ were true, you still have no idea of Nephy's power capabilities, because in your experience engines only need 0.01% of reactor capability, so you must assume that those ships have a capability 10,000 times greater than what you're observing right now (if they work anything like yours).

The simplest explanation is that Nephy's ships do have reasonable power output, but are hopeless at utilising it in combat (no shields, can't channel it into weapons properly - maybe it's generated in a distributed fashion and can't be easily concentrated).

On the contrary, since we will be tracking the fleet in-system for a couple hours with what is probably the best early warning net in known space, we will have had time to monitor the magnitude of it's signatures for a while-

For tracking FTL engine output, same issue as above. Basic sanity requires that FTL power consumption be based on speed and mass. If Nephy's fleet was somehow moving with a tiny fraction of the per-ship power that yours uses, the correct conclusion would be that she has scarily efficient drives and you are even more screwed.

and would have been sensing the potency of the enemy ships long before they are between earth and the sun.

How are you going to sense reactor output with FTL sensors at light-day ranges? Not even actual reactor output, max theoretical output! That's way beyond Culture-level tech and into 'godlike', and it's not as if you have some '+500 magic sensor array' to justify it.

The matter is simple. I don't care how many hulls are in Nephty's fleet, but if it allows her to magically simulate a FAR more powerful force than she actually has, for zero point expenditure, then I am afraid that would go completely against the basic tenets of this STGOD.

The decision has to be made by a mod, but she's not abusing it and she doesn't have anything else unreasonable, so I'd just allow it. We'll get a few hours of drama and then huge amounts of relief.

[Thirdfain]

All that crap, Starglider, is unimportant. As is, these battleships are SO much weaker than modern Earth tech that a single Polish FIGHTER much, much stronger than one of their battleships. Point defense will rip through these vessels with ease. And having that fact be anything but obvious gives her a massive, unpaid-for advantage. I'm all for having everyone be scared- but I will NOT see her recieve free awesome decoy tech.

[Imperial Overlord]

It's not unreasonable for the first contact with a "hidden" power with an unusual FTL system. It merely means that we will overestimate her strength during the first encounter, where we have an overwhelming force superiority. Every other encounter we will have an accurate idea of her strength. She won't be able to use it to create shadow fleets.

[Thirdfain]

So long as that is upheld, I'm happy. However, I think that we should all keep in mindd the obscene quantity over quality approach of her forces, to the point that a squadron of something like 25,000 warships of hers are only barely equivalent to a single Fleet Carrier with a few hundred fighters.

[Bugsby]

Hey everyone, just wanted to apologize for not being on at all for the last week. I've been kind of busy with some things that are very important (I start a new job on Monday!) and some things that aren't really that important but are terribly distracting (God of War 2!). I'm reading what I missed and will be posting with a vengeance soon.

[Starglider]

All that crap,

Which is basic physics and engineeing and essential to basic realism and consistency.

is unimportant. As is, these battleships are SO much weaker than modern Earth tech that a single Polish FIGHTER much, much stronger than one of their battleships. Point defense will rip through these vessels with ease.

Yes, which is OOC knowledge right up until the point that you shoot one, or capture a specimen, or maybe do a close-range active scan. Right now they might be sun-grazing space cows for all anyone knows, but the worst case assumption is that they are a hostile megafleet.

And having that fact be anything but obvious gives her a massive, unpaid-for advantage. I'm all for having everyone be scared- but I will NOT see her recieve free awesome decoy tech.

Theoretically true, but it only works once, and she doesn't seem to have used it to do anything strategically useful (it isn't, AFAIK, part of some devilish co-ordinated attack - in fact a slow ominous approach to earth would've been better for that, in that it's likely to cause lots of ships to gather in Sol to stop the menace). So in game that's irrelevant, taking up Nephy's FTL mode suggestion so that she'll be recognised by everyone in future. No one else has taken anything equivalent so I don't see a problem.

[SirNitram]

Poor modding, man. You are giving her a HUGE tactical advantage for NO cost- essentially, a perfect decoy system which allows her fleets to seem much more powerful than they actually are. I hate to say it, but I think it was a mistake. We can play from here, but I personally think it would be a VERY bad idea to have the weakness of this fleet be anything but obvious.

To give you guys an idea, Nephty's in-system fleet is worth (at quick glance) no more than about 300 points. That is miniscule; a single Polish fleet corps would be more than sufficient to wipe it out. To have it appear as a major attack with NO expenditure of points on ECM or decoys is, frankly, crap.

-edit-

Not to say that we shouldn't all be scared and mobilizing and stuff, but it should be immediately obvious that this is not some earth-crushing force, and in fact we are dealing with an alien civilization with vastly inferior ship-building technology.

You're a few pages late. Given my natural aversion to retcons and the fact you're hardly an uninvolved party here, why should I grant a retcon of a ruling I made quite a while back?

[Thirdfain]

Which is basic physics and engineeing and essential to basic realism and consistency.

Don't give me that. This game is entirely devoid of physics and realism, and what is consistent is the concept of power equivalency.

Yes, which is OOC knowledge right up until the point that you shoot one, or capture a specimen, or maybe do a close-range active scan.

Why? Because you say so? 300 points of ships is 300 points of ships, and is detectable as 300 points of ships. The rest is fluff. Live with it.

And having that fact be anything but obvious gives her a massive, unpaid-for advantage. I'm all for having everyone be scared- but I will NOT see her recieve free awesome decoy tech.

Theoretically true

Thank you. Case closed.

but it only works once, and she doesn't seem to have used it to do anything strategically useful (it isn't, AFAIK, part of some devilish co-ordinated attack - in fact a slow ominous approach to earth would've been better for that, in that it's likely to cause lots of ships to gather in Sol to stop the menace).

I know that. It's the principle of the thing.

So in game that's irrelevant, taking up Nephy's FTL mode suggestion so that she'll be recognised by everyone in future. No one else has taken anything equivalent so I don't see a problem.

Once again, it's the principle. We all agreed to power equivalency in the beginning, we should strive for it now. Everything else is fluff. What just happened is, Nephtys moved 300 points of ships into the Sol system, dropping them out of FTL between Earth and the Sun. The ships are VERY, VERY weird, but recognizable as 300 points of ships. I don't see why that's so hard to wrap your mind around.

[Nephtys]

I'm confused. I thought half the point of some interesting fluff was to actually play differently, and not be 'my fifty points vs your fifty points', but rather 'My Flying TARDIS vs your ISD squadron'?

I wasn't expecting something like 'Your ships must be precisely and totally equal in all actions to all others. They're just points on wheels.'

Well. Having a mob has it's advantages, and it's disadvantages. In any case, an FTL capable force with 2km ships that can accelerate to the proper c-fractional intra-stellar is going to still output damned similar levels than any other ship. But a crapload of other factors (as well as vulnerability to area weapons) are going to in the end balance them out in MOST forms of combat. I'll try to explain what I want to go for.

***

Okay. If that was a little complex, I'm going to propose and explain my intended method of combat. Based of course, on the source material for these buggies from Top wo Narae/Gunbuster.

My ships are pretty dumb things. They really adjust slowly and go from 'fly in circles' to 'hideous attack' like a selector. They operate in schools and groups, of which out of every 100, only 1 or 2 are going to be attacking really at any time, due to a number of factors. These include positioning, interference by friendlies, and how hard it is to actually ram a ship.

Of the ones that are shooting, they're using full powered armament or close to it. but their accuracy is trash. The nature of the weapons also makes them unsuitable for ground bombardment, to prevent that from being abused. My ships are going to be pretty much unarmored, with bulk taking the damage instead of any particular toughness. But I figured that doesn't mean a .50 caliber machine gun can sink one of my cruisers. I assumed that since I'm coming at you 'one-at-a-time', you can take on and destroy the frontal group with your main armament relatively easily, then take on the next, and the next. Your casualties would be from fatigue, slow attrition of minor damage, or overwhelming numbers eventually letting a couple of ships in close to firing/ram range. Point defense would chew up the light ships, capital weapons eat up the heavy. This would not be the case that one fighter can strafe and kill a destroyer every 3 seconds, but rather that fighter would

But wait, what about ammunition consumption? That's of course a factor, but for most lighter weapons (small cannons, railguns, etc) it shouldn't be too much of a worry. For big, shipkiller torpedoes and other weapons that are held in limited quantity, they'd do their share of damage with multiple kills per shot, area effect or shooting clean through several ships at once. Not to mention my concentration allows you to make shots at ranges where accuracy normally would be non-existant.

Makes sense? The massive swarmpower I figured would give some advantages, while other options are missing (like the swarm's nature can't focus fire on one particular flagship or something similar, each unit has to go for the closest target).

I don't see what's wrong with the appearance of strength, when it can be resisted and measured later.

[White Haven]

...Third, stop trying to powergame and just RP. She's not fucking sinking your navy or anything, she's in fact throwing away the advantage you've spent a full page bitching over. Sit down, shut up, stop bitching at a mod, and RP it out, christ on a fucking unicycle.

EDIT: The ironic thing is that Neph is doing the opposite of powergaming here, and you're trying to tear her head off for it. By powergaming.

[Thirdfain]

You're a few pages late. Given my natural aversion to retcons and the fact you're hardly an uninvolved party here, why should I grant a retcon of a ruling I made quite a while back?

I posted on the matter as soon as it came to my attention. I'm working, and don't always have time to examine the thread in detail as the events unfold.

I don't want a retcon. I made my first post on the matter, it can be assumed to have happened a couple hour before everyone flipped out.

[Spyder]

I'm fine with it. It's just RP and every player should be doing something unique to try and scare the shit out of everyone else.

[Imperial Overlord]

Once again, it's the principle. We all agreed to power equivalency in the beginning, we should strive for it now. Everything else is fluff. What just happened is, Nephtys moved 300 points of ships into the Sol system, dropping them out of FTL between Earth and the Sun. The ships are VERY, VERY weird, but recognizable as 300 points of ships. I don't see why that's so hard to wrap your mind around.

It also registers like 10,000 points of ships with good stealth and EW. Fluff isn't irrelevant. This is first contact with an alien power and unknown capabilities. This encounter is going to yield a ton of intel about Nephtys that the nations of Sol didn't previously have.

[Thirdfain]

...Third, stop trying to powergame and just RP.

I'm posting my actions in the game thread, and I'm sticking to them. Live with it.

She's not fucking sinking your navy or anything, she's in fact throwing away the advantage you've spent a full page bitching over.

An advantage which should not exist in the first place.

Sit down, shut up, stop bitching at a mod, and RP it out, christ on a fucking unicycle.

OK, asshole. As a matter of fact I am a mod as well, and have a duty to comment in the OOC thread as to what I believe is best for the game, and on what I see as powergaming. So, watch your fucking mouth, OK?

Nephty's actions have been fine; I'm cool with that. I don't see any reason to call for a retcon of any sort. I intend on treating her force VERY much as a threat, and meeting it as such. However, I also intend on noticing very quickly just how completely weak her vessels are as combat units.

[Thirdfain]

It also registers like 10,000 points of ships with good stealth and EW. Fluff isn't irrelevant. This is first contact with an alien power and unknown capabilities. This encounter is going to yield a ton of intel about Nephtys that the nations of Sol didn't previously have.

Fair enough.

[White Haven]

As an involved power, I was under the understanding that you were effectively not a mod to avoid conflict of interest.