Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions!"

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Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by Formless »

:wanker: The Governor is just being practical. Maryland has already abolished the practice, and the executions of those four got grandfathered in. Most states that have abolished it did so because of economics, and those economic problems didn't disappear for those four. In fact if anything it would be even more expensive because its delaying the state from getting rid of their execution facilities. Much like how one of the states had to officially get rid of death by hanging after a prisoner specifically asked it as one last :finger: to the state, because they knew for a fact there were no gallows for them to hang him with, and building a gallows cost a shitload. They had to do it, and then they finally took death by hanging off the books so no one else could pull that stunt. These four are still getting life without parole, same as any other prisoner convicted after 2013; and there are almost certainly many, many other prisoners prior to 2013 whose sentences have been commuted by the governors from Death Row to Life for whatever reasons the governor saw fit; that's within the Governor's discretion and always has been.

The fact you would bring that up would be comical if it wasn't so blasé coming from you.
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Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by Jub »

MKSheppard wrote: 2022-01-15 01:01pm<snip>
If the death penalty is such a good system for discouraging crime, why do Americans still commit crimes for which they could be sentenced to death? Why are US crime rates still high if America serves its criminals with frequent and deadly JUSTICE?

It seems like it's an expensive and inhumane system that doesn't actually work except as a means of making a small group of people feel better because the bad guys are dead. I think the US would be far better served to address root causes of crime and start a process of defunding the prison system as, unlike capital punishment, this actually seems to work.
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Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by MKSheppard »

Formless wrote: 2022-01-15 03:41pmThe fact you would bring that up would be comical if it wasn't so blasé coming from you.
Ordering contract killings of witnesses in criminal cases is a pretty big fucking deal, to paraphrase Obama.

Even more of a bigger fucking deal is when your contract killer kills the wrong person.

An even bigger fucking deal is when your contract killer uses a MAC-11 machine pistol with suppressor for the killings.

linky

There was testimony from another witness, Calvin Harper, that, on the next day, April 27, 1983, Kelly showed him a machine gun equipped with a silencer and that they turned the gun over to Evans, telling him it was for the job. Sparrow and Evans returned to the motel and they spent the night of April 27th there.

On the 28th, Kelly arrived at the motel and picked up Evans. Kelly brought with him a MAC-11 machine gun with an attached silencer which he gave to Evans. Kelly left and Evans and Sparrow went to their own car. Sparrow remained in the car outside the motel, while Evans went into the motel. As he was leaving, according to Sparrow, Evans stated that "anyone was in his way, they was going too."

When Evans, in about fifteen to twenty minutes, ran to the car, Sparrow saw smoke coming out of a silencer attached to a weapon in Evans' possession. Sparrow and Evans drove into the city, where Kelly picked up the car and the canvas bag containing a heavy metal object.

At the trial, positive identification was introduced which located both the gun and Evans at the scene of the crime at about 3:00 p.m. on April 28, 1983. Scott Piechowicz and Susan Kennedy were shot with a MAC-11 machine gun at 3:22 in the afternoon.

Jub wrote:If the death penalty is such a good system for discouraging crime, why do Americans still commit crimes for which they could be sentenced to death?
As I've gotten older, I've come to the conclusion that the majority of violent crime is done by individuals so many standard deviations away from the norms -- that is they're too stupid to actually do cause/effect beyond their immediate circumstances -- as in they can't think ahead more than a day or two, or run down in their heads: "If I do this, X is likely to result, which will cause Y to happen." The only way to actually deter people that stupid is for the sentences to be carried out almost immediately -- but that's impossible given current standards for trials by the late 20th century.

Maryland's prosecutors since at least the 1980s have reserved the death penalty for exceptional circumstances; with our last five death row inmates being:

John Booth-El -- died on death row; was on death row for breaking into his neighbor's residence, binding and gagging Irvin (78 years old) and Rose Bronstein (75 years old) and then stabbing them 12 times each way back in May 1983.

Heath Burch -- Well....

Link

In the early morning hours of March 19, 1995, Burch burglarized the home of Robert and Cleo Davis in Capitol Heights, Maryland, intending to steal property that could be sold to support his cocaine habit. When confronted by the Davises, an elderly couple in their 70's, Burch savagely attacked them. Following the assaults, Burch stole their guns, their money, and Mr. Davis's truck. A family friend discovered the Davises the next day, and by that time Mr. Davis had died. Mrs. Davis, who was alive when found on a couch with blood splattered over her, was hospitalized and died eight days after being attacked by Burch. The medical examiner determined that Mrs. Davis died of blunt force injuries and resulting complications. An autopsy performed on Mr. Davis revealed that he had died from thirty-three wounds, of which eleven were stab wounds from the blade of a pair of scissors.

There was overwhelming evidence in Burch's state court trial linking him to the murders of Mr. and Mrs. Davis. Indeed, Burch confessed to the Maryland authorities that he had entered the Davis home and killed its occupants. A boot found in Burch's home matched a bloody footprint in the Davises' home, and traces of the victims' blood were found on clothing in Burch's home. Additionally, Burch's brother testified that on March 19, 1995, the day of the attacks, Burch came to the brother's home with blood on his neck and hands and acknowledged that he had killed two people.


Vernon Evans/Anthony Grandison -- The aforementioned contract killing of witness with machine gun and suppressor that I've mentioned.

Jody Lee Miles: -- convicted of murdering a popular theater owner -- the victim's body was found in a wooded area several hundred yards away from the victim's car; with the killing method being a contact shot to the back of the head.

BONUS: Our first execution since 1961 was in 1994 and was this marvelous individual: John Thanos

On August 31, Thanos encountered 18-year-old Greg Taylor while hitchhiking. Holding him at gunpoint while in his car, Thanos ordered Taylor to drive to a wooded area along a deserted logging road, where he intended to tie him to a tree. When Taylor refused to comply with his demands, Thanos laid Taylor down and murdered him by shooting him in the head three times. He then stole Taylor's car and altered his appearance to look more like him.

On September 1, Thanos arrived at a gas station and traded his father's watch to 16-year-old Billy Winebrenner for $20 and some gas. The two made a deal in which Thanos could return to the gas station and pay $60 to get the watch back. Two days later on September 3, Thanos returned and encountered Winebrenner and his 14-year-old girlfriend, Melody Pistorio, who had come to the gas station to keep him company. Winebrenner did not have the watch with him, as he had given it to Pistorio, who had left it at home in her jewelry box. Enraged, Thanos took out his gun and robbed the gas station at gunpoint, demanding Winebrenner fill his bag with cash. The pair handed over all the cash from the register. Thanos then fatally shot each of them twice in the head and fled the store.

A day earlier on September 2, Thanos robbed a convenience store in Salisbury and shot the clerk in the head. The clerk survived the shooting and Thanos stole $96.

A day after the gas station murders on the evening of September 4, Salisbury police spotted Thanos driving north. He matched the description of a person wanted in a recent armed robbery. The police pulled him over and Thanos stopped his vehicle. As police approached him, Thanos began shooting at them, causing the officers to return fire. No one was hit during the shootout and Thanos drove away. He abandoned his vehicle near some woods and fled on foot towards a highway. He then flagged down a passing motorist and forced his way into the car, taking the motorist hostage and threatening him with a gun. The motorist obeyed Thanos's demands and drove him out of the state. The pair headed into Delaware where a Smyrna police officer spotted them.

The officer followed the car into a parking lot and police surrounded the vehicle. The motorist then fled from the car on foot and Thanos began shooting at the police. Three officers returned fire at Thanos and a shootout erupted in the parking lot. Thanos then surrendered after he emptied his gun.


In all of the cases, they were abnormal cases -- e.g. elderly people being killed in exceptionally cruel ways, contract killings to get rid of trial witnesses, execution-style killings, children being executed; not your ordinary shit.
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Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by Formless »

*yawn* try your red herrings on someone else, Shep. If you aren't interested in addressing the logic of the commutation, I don't care.
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Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by Formless »

*yawn* try your red herrings on someone else, Shep. If you aren't interested in addressing the logic of the commutation, I don't care.
"Still, I would love to see human beings, and their constituent organ systems, trivialized and commercialized to the same extent as damn iPods and other crappy consumer products. It would be absolutely horrific, yet so wonderful." — Shroom Man 777
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“I would suggest "Schmuckulating", which is what Futurists do and, by extension, what they are." — Commenter "Rayneau"
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Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by MKSheppard »

The reason why I keep bringing these last four death row cases in MD up, is that the legislation signed by O'Malley on 2 May 2013 that abolished the death penalty in Maryland "grandfathered" in everyone who was already on death row -- i.e. they would still be put to death, but no new death sentences would be handed out.

But basically, O'Malley waited until the very last moment in his second term, until 31 December 2014 to commute their sentences; because Larry Hogan (R) was going to become Governor on 21 January 2015; and the last time Maryland had a Republican Governor in Bob Ehrlich, executions resumed.

Basically, blatant pure partisan politics.
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Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by MKSheppard »

Formless wrote: 2022-01-15 09:30pm *yawn* try your red herrings on someone else, Shep. If you aren't interested in addressing the logic of the commutation, I don't care.
Holy double post, Formless.

Left unsaid is that in 2009; Maryland significantly tightened up the Death Penalty by passing a reform bill.

Courtesy of the Connecticut government LINK
In 2009, legislation limited the cases in which the court or jury could impose a death sentence to those in which the state presents the following types of evidence:

1. biological or DNA evidence that links the defendant to the murder;

2. a videotaped, voluntary interrogation and confession of the defendant to the murder; or

3. a video recording that conclusively links the defendant to the murder.

The 2009 act also specifically prohibited the death penalty if the state relies solely on eyewitness evidence.

For death penalty cases in which the sentence had not been imposed, and the state did not meet the act's criteria, the act removed the death penalty as a sentencing option. The act also expressed the intent that any savings from reducing the number of death penalty cases be used to expand victim services for survivors of homicide.

The act took effect October 1, 2009
I actually do agree with it -- tighten up the legal requirements to seek a capital case, but naturally, that wasn't enough for the crusaders. :roll:
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Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by Formless »

MKSheppard wrote: 2022-01-15 09:34pm The reason why I keep bringing these last four death row cases in MD up, is that the legislation signed by O'Malley on 2 May 2013 that abolished the death penalty in Maryland "grandfathered" in everyone who was already on death row -- i.e. they would still be put to death, but no new death sentences would be handed out.

But basically, O'Malley waited until the very last moment in his second term, until 31 December 2014 to commute their sentences; because Larry Hogan (R) was going to become Governor on 21 January 2015; and the last time Maryland had a Republican Governor in Bob Ehrlich, executions resumed.

Basically, blatant pure partisan politics.
Like I give a shit. The sheer number of people falsely convicted, let alone those proven post-mortem to be innocent of a crime they got the death penalty for, must make me a partisan then.
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Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by bilateralrope »

MKSheppard wrote: 2022-01-15 01:01pm I thought witness killings were an affront to our democracy, etc etc blah blah.
Yes. Some of the people who are/were on death row are horrible people.

But my main problem with the death penalty is that I'm not convinced that any of the jurisdictions that use it care enough about justice to make sure that they are only executing the guilty.
MKSheppard wrote: 2022-01-15 09:34pm But basically, O'Malley waited until the very last moment in his second term, until 31 December 2014 to commute their sentences; because Larry Hogan (R) was going to become Governor on 21 January 2015; and the last time Maryland had a Republican Governor in Bob Ehrlich, executions resumed.
I don't think the ability for governors/presidents to commute sentences for no reason beyond "I felt like it" or "it's convenient for me" has any place in a justice system. But, as long as the US keeps them, you will keep seeing pardon/commute powers being used this way or worse.

Yes, I'm saying that pardon/commute powers are one of the reasons I don't think the US justice system(s) cares enough about only executing the guilty to be trusted with the death penalty.
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Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by Ralin »

Batman wrote: 2022-01-11 09:21pm He already explained-it's the closest that society can get to doing it while pretending to be civilized.
He didn't, and I don't think that explains it at all, because lethal injection exists side by side with the electric chair and I don't know off the top of my head when the last hanging in the US was but that was also on the table not so long ago. Ditto for just shooting them. Clearly there are much more dramatic and interesting to watch (again if you're into that kind of thing) methods of execution that society considers 'civilized,' whatever exactly that means here.

Like, I don't know how familiar you are with the subject, but while horrible for the person on the receiving end lethal injection is literally designed to be as sanitized and peaceful-seeming as possible for observers. Really doesn't seem to jibe with the idea of the execution as a spectacle. Especially given that states still try to keep using it when they run into issues with suppliers instead of switching to other options that are still on the books and practiced within living memory.
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Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by Darth Yan »

And there have been many cases where the person died in agony and the state lied about it.

Shooting someone and the electric chair are increasingly seen as barbaric (especially after the jesse tafero incident). Lethal injection allows them to at least pretend they're being civilized about it. And that is important to them.
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Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by Jub »

Ralin wrote: 2022-01-17 04:03amHe didn't, and I don't think that explains it at all, because lethal injection exists side by side with the electric chair and I don't know off the top of my head when the last hanging in the US was but that was also on the table not so long ago. Ditto for just shooting them. Clearly there are much more dramatic and interesting to watch (again if you're into that kind of thing) methods of execution that society considers 'civilized,' whatever exactly that means here.

Like, I don't know how familiar you are with the subject, but while horrible for the person on the receiving end lethal injection is literally designed to be as sanitized and peaceful-seeming as possible for observers. Really doesn't seem to jibe with the idea of the execution as a spectacle. Especially given that states still try to keep using it when they run into issues with suppliers instead of switching to other options that are still on the books and practiced within living memory.
The theater is that somebody dies in public by the state's hand, not the method by which it's accomplished. Less spectacular methods have been pushed for because those opposed or on the fence about executions can hold feel good that at least the state is using a, debatably, humane method and those in favor still get a body at the end of the process. It's like any public process in that it's a compromise that nobody likes but a majority can live with.
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Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by Darth Yan »

Jub wrote: 2022-01-17 01:37pm
Ralin wrote: 2022-01-17 04:03amHe didn't, and I don't think that explains it at all, because lethal injection exists side by side with the electric chair and I don't know off the top of my head when the last hanging in the US was but that was also on the table not so long ago. Ditto for just shooting them. Clearly there are much more dramatic and interesting to watch (again if you're into that kind of thing) methods of execution that society considers 'civilized,' whatever exactly that means here.

Like, I don't know how familiar you are with the subject, but while horrible for the person on the receiving end lethal injection is literally designed to be as sanitized and peaceful-seeming as possible for observers. Really doesn't seem to jibe with the idea of the execution as a spectacle. Especially given that states still try to keep using it when they run into issues with suppliers instead of switching to other options that are still on the books and practiced within living memory.
The theater is that somebody dies in public by the state's hand, not the method by which it's accomplished. Less spectacular methods have been pushed for because those opposed or on the fence about executions can hold feel good that at least the state is using a, debatably, humane method and those in favor still get a body at the end of the process. It's like any public process in that it's a compromise that nobody likes but a majority can live with.
Yup. And even Lethal Injection often involves a lot of agony to the point the state has tried to cover it up.

But the AEDPA is easily one of the biggest abominations in recent legal history. The whole purpose is to keep state judges from getting called out on their incompetence and bias and ensure the verdict stands even if the case starts to look shaky. It's the epitome of "who cares what new evidence says, the sanctity of the verdict is all that matters."
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