Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions!"

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

User avatar
Jub
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4230
Joined: 2012-08-06 07:58pm
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by Jub »

Batman wrote: 2022-01-05 10:06pmSince other nations routinely manage to do it the answer is obviously 'somehow'.
It couldn't be social programs, a society that promotes working for the benefit of the community, and government officials that don't do shit like introduce poor communities to crack. The US loves to keep digging new holes to toss the bodies it keeps making into and never stops to ask why nobody else emulates their systems.
User avatar
Batman
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 15980
Joined: 2002-07-09 04:51am
Location: Seriously thinking about moving to Marvel because so much of the DCEU stinks

Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by Batman »

I LIVE in Europe. I know we manage to do massively better than the US on a lot of those things and that the US seems to have a blind spot several superclusters wide blinding them to the way we managed to fix those problems.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
User avatar
Jub
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4230
Joined: 2012-08-06 07:58pm
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by Jub »

Batman wrote: 2022-01-05 10:29pm I LIVE in Europe. I know we manage to do massively better than the US on a lot of those things and that the US seems to have a blind spot several superclusters wide blinding them to the way we managed to fix those problems.
Canadian here. Our countries used to have things like the death penalty and seemed equally bloodthirsty. The thing is, we grew up and America didn't.
Ralin
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3504
Joined: 2008-08-28 04:23am

Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by Ralin »

Jub wrote: 2022-01-05 03:47pm
Ralin wrote: 2022-01-05 03:29pmBecause legal injection looks tidier and more sanitized and is less likely to upset onlookers despite it being often times horrifically painful for the condemned.
Sorry, I was obviously unclear. What is the point of any form of execution versus the alternatives?
Well it causes them to get dead, and then we don't have to deal with them anymore. And that's supposed to make everyone happier because they are not alive anymore.
User avatar
Jub
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4230
Joined: 2012-08-06 07:58pm
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by Jub »

Ralin wrote: 2022-01-06 12:53amWell it causes them to get dead, and then we don't have to deal with them anymore. And that's supposed to make everyone happier because they are not alive anymore.
Oh, so why don't we just do that to everybody society doesn't like? Homeless people, LGBT folks, different races, the same chuds that clamor for the death penalty as a deterrent would love to see those groups gone too.
User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 15942
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Australia

Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by Gandalf »

Jub wrote: 2022-01-06 01:32pm Oh, so why don't we just do that to everybody society doesn't like? Homeless people, LGBT folks, different races, the same chuds that clamor for the death penalty as a deterrent would love to see those groups gone too.
Sometimes it's subtler, like governments cutting off vital supports for (for example) Indigenous populations.

Other times, we see police putting the boot into less popular segments of the population when given half an excuse, like the protests in 2020.
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin
Ralin
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3504
Joined: 2008-08-28 04:23am

Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by Ralin »

Jub wrote: 2022-01-06 01:32pm Oh, so why don't we just do that to everybody society doesn't like? Homeless people, LGBT folks, different races, the same chuds that clamor for the death penalty as a deterrent would love to see those groups gone too.
Now you're just being silly.
User avatar
Jub
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4230
Joined: 2012-08-06 07:58pm
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by Jub »

Ralin wrote: 2022-01-06 07:50pmNow you're just being silly.
35 of 51 states and 4 of 4 territories still allow the trans panic defense to be used. How can this be considered anything but a state-sponsored defense of killing LBGT people?

How many US cities use hostile architecture to further disadvantage their homeless populations while passing laws to criminalize the simple act of being poor? Is that not effectively aggressive neglect that leads to worse outcomes and potentially death for these people?

Let's look at exactly which colors of people are executed in the US. Do you want to bet that more white people are executed than colored people?

The US is already doing its best to kill off these folks. I say they may as well make it official and drop the mask.
Ralin
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3504
Joined: 2008-08-28 04:23am

Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by Ralin »

Jub wrote: 2022-01-06 08:50pm 35 of 51 states and 4 of 4 territories still allow the trans panic defense to be used. How can this be considered anything but a state-sponsored defense of killing LBGT people?

How many US cities use hostile architecture to further disadvantage their homeless populations while passing laws to criminalize the simple act of being poor? Is that not effectively aggressive neglect that leads to worse outcomes and potentially death for these people?

Let's look at exactly which colors of people are executed in the US. Do you want to bet that more white people are executed than colored people?

The US is already doing its best to kill off these folks. I say they may as well make it official and drop the mask.
Did you miss taking some sort of medication? Because it has pretty much nothing to do with executions being some sort of (really boring) bloodsport.
User avatar
Jub
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4230
Joined: 2012-08-06 07:58pm
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by Jub »

Ralin wrote: 2022-01-06 08:57pmDid you miss taking some sort of medication? Because it has pretty much nothing to do with executions being some sort of (really boring) bloodsport.
You're the one who stated "Well it causes them to get dead, and then we don't have to deal with them anymore. And that's supposed to make everyone happier because they are not alive anymore." So why shouldn't we apply that statement to killing more groups of people that Americans aren't comfortable with? The death penalty already aims squarely at poor folks and minorities, so why not just say the quiet part out loud?
Nicholas
Youngling
Posts: 113
Joined: 2018-07-17 09:03am

Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by Nicholas »

Jub wrote: 2022-01-06 09:03pm So why shouldn't we apply that statement to killing more groups of people that Americans aren't comfortable with? The death penalty already aims squarely at poor folks and minorities, so why not just say the quiet part out loud?
Most death penalty supporters believe that a small number of people commit acts so horrible that the only just punishment is death. That the people who get convicted of those acts and sentenced to death are disproportionally poor and minorities is not reasonable grounds for concluding that death penalty supporters want to kill all poor people and all minorities. The suggestion that it is is just stupid.
Ralin
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3504
Joined: 2008-08-28 04:23am

Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by Ralin »

Jub wrote: 2022-01-06 09:03pm So why shouldn't we apply that statement to killing more groups of people that Americans aren't comfortable with? The death penalty already aims squarely at poor folks and minorities, so why not just say the quiet part out loud?
Go take your meds, Jub. You sound crazy.
User avatar
Jub
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4230
Joined: 2012-08-06 07:58pm
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by Jub »

Nicholas wrote: 2022-01-06 09:35pmMost death penalty supporters believe that a small number of people commit acts so horrible that the only just punishment is death. That the people who get convicted of those acts and sentenced to death are disproportionally poor and minorities is not reasonable grounds for concluding that death penalty supporters want to kill all poor people and all minorities. The suggestion that it is is just stupid.
I'm sure it's just a strange coincidence that states that are still actively carrying out executions are exclusively states that tend to vote Republican.
User avatar
Jub
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4230
Joined: 2012-08-06 07:58pm
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by Jub »

Ralin wrote: 2022-01-06 09:45pmGo take your meds, Jub. You sound crazy.
Literal Nazi cops:
https://twitter.com/bykenarmstrong/stat ... 09536?s=20

But sure. The US bears no ill will to any minority.
User avatar
Jub
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4230
Joined: 2012-08-06 07:58pm
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by Jub »

Ralin wrote: 2022-01-06 09:45pmGo take your meds, Jub. You sound crazy.
Do you have some reason you keep questioning my mental health Ralin? This isn't the first thread you've brought this up in.

It's almost like you think it's a good way to attack a person and that violates the board's vendetta rule. I really hope they ban your neo-con republithug ass.
Ralin
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3504
Joined: 2008-08-28 04:23am

Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by Ralin »

Jub wrote: 2022-01-06 10:04pm Do you have some reason you keep questioning my mental health Ralin? This isn't the first thread you've brought this up in.
I have no idea if or how many times I have questioned your mental health in the past. My concern about it is purely due to your weird off-topic screed about how executions must a (really boring and shitty) blood sport because something something minorities.
neo-con republithug ass.
Ha. Hahaha. Ahahahahahaha.
Literal Nazi cops:
https://twitter.com/bykenarmstrong/stat ... 09536?s=20

But sure. The US bears no ill will to any minority.
And thus executions are a blood sport that can only be explained by America's hatred for minorities.

On that note, hey Elfdart, still curious how you reconcile executions being a blood sport for baying savages with them being deliberately done in such a (from an entertainment perspective, were you someone into that kind of thing) boring and undramatic way. Like, don't you think that if that was the goal there are much showier ways to do it that would be more effective at satisfying execution aficionados' kill boners? I'm sure you've seen Running Man and all. That seems like a big hole in your theory.
User avatar
Jub
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4230
Joined: 2012-08-06 07:58pm
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by Jub »

Ralin wrote: 2022-01-06 10:16pmI have no idea if or how many times I have questioned your mental health in the past. My concern about it is purely due to your weird off-topic screed about how executions must a (really boring and shitty) blood sport because something something minorities.
Ah, of course, only the tree remembers. Never the axe.

As for my argument, I'm using hyperbole to highlight that the US is bloodthirsty and craves the blood of many of its undesirables, but that it likes to veil things behind concepts like 'justice' and 'law and order' while claiming that people are poor because of moral failings. I'm merely saying that it would be more honest if the kinds of assholes that support the death penalty said what they really think of those they choose to other.
Ha. Hahaha. Ahahahahahaha.
You seem to hate unions and be defending the death penalty. What else am I to think?
And thus executions are a blood sport that can only be explained by America's hatred for minorities.
There's a reason why such blood sport tends to confine itself to Republican-leaning states. My guess is that it has everything to do with just who the state kills and what certain political ideologies think of those sorts of people.
User avatar
Solauren
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9345
Joined: 2003-05-11 09:41pm

Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by Solauren »

Ralin wrote: 2022-01-06 07:50pm
Jub wrote: 2022-01-06 01:32pm Oh, so why don't we just do that to everybody society doesn't like? Homeless people, LGBT folks, different races, the same chuds that clamor for the death penalty as a deterrent would love to see those groups gone too.
Now you're just being silly.
Actually, no he's not.

Many other countries in the world do way more for their Homeless, LGBTQ+, different ethnic and religious groups, then the United States does on any level. For crying out loud, they have one of the most powerful military forces in the worlds, one of the largest economies, and yet how many of their military-vets end up homeless, with untreated mental health problems?

It's because the people in power would rather just see those people gone, then actually having to give a shit and do something about the problem.
The easiest ways to do that? Ignore them and hope they die off, or find a way to eliminate them so they stop being a problem, and 'valuable resources' can be put towards better things, like a new sports stadium.
I've been asked why I still follow a few of the people I know on Facebook with 'interesting political habits and view points'.

It's so when they comment on or approve of something, I know what pages to block/what not to vote for.
User avatar
Jub
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4230
Joined: 2012-08-06 07:58pm
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by Jub »

Solauren wrote: 2022-01-06 11:08pm
Ralin wrote: 2022-01-06 07:50pm
Jub wrote: 2022-01-06 01:32pm Oh, so why don't we just do that to everybody society doesn't like? Homeless people, LGBT folks, different races, the same chuds that clamor for the death penalty as a deterrent would love to see those groups gone too.
Now you're just being silly.
Actually, no he's not.

Many other countries in the world do way more for their Homeless, LGBTQ+, different ethnic and religious groups, then the United States does on any level. For crying out loud, they have one of the most powerful military forces in the worlds, one of the largest economies, and yet how many of their military-vets end up homeless, with untreated mental health problems?

It's because the people in power would rather just see those people gone, then actually having to give a shit and do something about the problem.
The easiest ways to do that? Ignore them and hope they die off, or find a way to eliminate them so they stop being a problem, and 'valuable resources' can be put towards better things, like a new sports stadium.
Thank you, this was exactly my point all along. That Ralin can't see that shows exactly what he thinks of the groups these states execute.
User avatar
LadyTevar
White Mage
White Mage
Posts: 21291
Joined: 2003-02-12 10:59pm

Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by LadyTevar »

Ralin wrote: 2022-01-06 09:45pm
Jub wrote: 2022-01-06 09:03pm So why shouldn't we apply that statement to killing more groups of people that Americans aren't comfortable with? The death penalty already aims squarely at poor folks and minorities, so why not just say the quiet part out loud?
Go take your meds, Jub. You sound crazy.
No, Ralin, I think it's time you took a chill pill and stopped trolling Jub about his health. Next time you attack him for his Mental Health Issues, I'm gonna ban you for two weeks.
Image
Librium Arcana, Where Gamers Play!
Nitram, slightly high on cough syrup: Do you know you're beautiful?
Me: Nope, that's why I have you around to tell me.
Nitram: You -are- beautiful. Anyone tries to tell you otherwise kill them.
"A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP" -- Leonard Nimoy, last Tweet
Nicholas
Youngling
Posts: 113
Joined: 2018-07-17 09:03am

Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by Nicholas »

Jub wrote: 2022-01-06 09:58pm I'm sure it's just a strange coincidence that states that are still actively carrying out executions are exclusively states that tend to vote Republican.
Not at all, Republicans are more likely then Democrats to believe that all humans have free will and therefor can be justly punished for what they do. It is hardly a surprise that belief leads to more Republicans then Democrats supporting the Death Penalty and it is democracy working when the state governments follow the will of the voters.
Crazedwraith
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11338
Joined: 2003-04-10 03:45pm
Location: Cheshire, England

Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by Crazedwraith »

Nicholas wrote: 2022-01-07 09:38am
Jub wrote: 2022-01-06 09:58pm I'm sure it's just a strange coincidence that states that are still actively carrying out executions are exclusively states that tend to vote Republican.
Not at all, Republicans are more likely then Democrats to believe that all humans have free will and therefor can be justly punished for what they do. It is hardly a surprise that belief leads to more Republicans then Democrats supporting the Death Penalty and it is democracy working when the state governments follow the will of the voters.
...this thread just keeps getting weirder and weird.

Care to elaborate on why you think Democrats don't think humans have free will? Or don't think they can be punished? Not believing in the death penalty is not the same as not punishing at all.
User avatar
Jub
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4230
Joined: 2012-08-06 07:58pm
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by Jub »

Nicholas wrote: 2022-01-07 09:38am
Jub wrote: 2022-01-06 09:58pm I'm sure it's just a strange coincidence that states that are still actively carrying out executions are exclusively states that tend to vote Republican.
Not at all, Republicans are more likely then Democrats to believe that all humans have free will and therefor can be justly punished for what they do. It is hardly a surprise that belief leads to more Republicans then Democrats supporting the Death Penalty and it is democracy working when the state governments follow the will of the voters.
*raises an eyebrow* Please, elaborate on this. I want to see why you think this is the case.
User avatar
Darth Yan
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2375
Joined: 2008-12-29 02:09pm
Location: California

Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by Darth Yan »

Ralin wrote: 2022-01-06 09:45pm
Jub wrote: 2022-01-06 09:03pm So why shouldn't we apply that statement to killing more groups of people that Americans aren't comfortable with? The death penalty already aims squarely at poor folks and minorities, so why not just say the quiet part out loud?
Go take your meds, Jub. You sound crazy.
No it's pretty accurate. White people who committed the exact crimes as black people get lesser sentences.
User avatar
Solauren
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9345
Joined: 2003-05-11 09:41pm

Re: Arizona's argument at Scotus: "Sure they may be innocent, but that's not enough of a reason to stop their executions

Post by Solauren »

Darth Yan wrote: 2022-01-08 12:56pm
Ralin wrote: 2022-01-06 09:45pm
Jub wrote: 2022-01-06 09:03pm So why shouldn't we apply that statement to killing more groups of people that Americans aren't comfortable with? The death penalty already aims squarely at poor folks and minorities, so why not just say the quiet part out loud?
Go take your meds, Jub. You sound crazy.
No it's pretty accurate. White people who committed the exact crimes as black people get lesser sentences.
I'd be interested to learn sentencing statistics on that, from the who passed the conviction/sentence.
i.e ethnic make-up and gender of defendant, jury, and judge.

If only to see how 'jury by peers' really works. I can imagine there could be some rather, 'interesting' statistics from that.
I've been asked why I still follow a few of the people I know on Facebook with 'interesting political habits and view points'.

It's so when they comment on or approve of something, I know what pages to block/what not to vote for.
Post Reply