Will Trump end up as a 'secondary' president to the GOP?

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Solauren
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Re: Will Trump end up as a 'secondary' president to the GOP?

Post by Solauren »

Zaune wrote: 2021-01-27 01:33pm I must admit I'm confused as to how impeaching an ex-President works, legally speaking. Can he not be prosecuted for misconduct in office as a private citizen now that he's left?
He's already been impeached. That's not an issue.

I think the Republicans are arguing, that you have to be tried for an impeachment while still holding the office you were impeached while holding. The trial can resulting in you being removed from office, and other punishments.

In other-words, because he was impeached during his first term as the president, he could only be tried for that impeachment during his first term of president.
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Re: Will Trump end up as a 'secondary' president to the GOP?

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Thinking about it, the best thing we could hope for is a finding of 'Senate no longer has jurisdiction because offender is no longer in office'.

Why?

The senate is NOT going to send him to jail for life, or order his death, or anything else that causing what is basically an armed attempt to overthrow the government. That's either insurrection or treason.

And if the senate clears him, or doesn't convict him, under Double Jeopardy, he can't be tried again in Federal Court.

Meaning, even if the senate convicts him, he's going to get away with what is, by comparison to the Federal Courts, minor punishment.
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Re: Will Trump end up as a 'secondary' president to the GOP?

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Zaune wrote: 2021-01-27 01:33pm I must admit I'm confused as to how impeaching an ex-President works, legally speaking. Can he not be prosecuted for misconduct in office as a private citizen now that he's left?
Legally speaking, there's nothing stopping the Justice Department from launching an investigation into Trump's presidency that would lead to them levelling criminal charges against him and having him perp-walked out of Mar-a-Lago by US Marshals.

It wouldn't be done ... the US has a long tradition of not doing so, since any such criminal prosecution would be immediately, and chiefly, seen as political; and could open a whole can of worms (such as Presidents having their predecessors dragged into court as political payback, or Presidents seeking to stay in power to avoid prosecution.)

(It should be said that this doesn't apply to the investigations Trump faces in New York, because A) He's being investigated for actions taken outside his time as President and B) States Rights.)

However, let's assume Trump gets arrested, charged, and convicted for his various criminal mischiefs done as Commander-in-Chief. There's literally nothing in the US Constitution barring convicted felons from running for President, including our hypothetical orange shit-gibbon in his orange prison jumpsuit!

The end-goal of impeaching Trump again was to, hopefully, bar him from running for office again.

(Of course, as has been said, the Republicans are being deliberately obtuse when they bleat about the constitutionality of impeaching an ex-President. Trump was still in office when he was impeached the second time!)
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Re: Will Trump end up as a 'secondary' president to the GOP?

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GrandMasterTerwynn wrote: 2021-01-27 09:19amWorse, professional shit-gibbon Rand Paul forced a Senate vote on whether impeaching Trump is even constitutional Tuesday. The result: Only five Republicans voted 'yes'

This vote was seen as something of a harbinger of how the Senate might ultimately vote in the impeachment trial itself. And right now, it shows that, at most, five Republicans might vote to convict Trump. That is at least twelve fewer than is needed.
Yes, that is worrying. But remember that this time the Republicans won't be able to stop evidence being presented at the trial. Things like funding links between Trump and the organisers of the Jan. 6 rally.

Probably not enough to get Trump convicted. But I'm hoping it makes it clear to Republican voters that the party is comprised of pro-Trump and pro-Democracy factions, and that they all have to choose which side they are on.
Solauren wrote: 2021-01-27 01:54pmI think the Republicans are arguing, that you have to be tried for an impeachment while still holding the office you were impeached while holding. The trial can resulting in you being removed from office, and other punishments.
There is a precedent. William W. Belknap resigned on March 2 1876. The Senate then acquitted him on August 1 after having the trial. So yes, the Senate can and has held the trial after the person left office.
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Re: Will Trump end up as a 'secondary' president to the GOP?

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The chief utility of convicting an ex-President (he was impeached while he was still in office) is to bar him from ever holding an elected office again.

And yes, he certainly can be prosecuted in the courts for crimes committed (although I expect some Trumpists to argue otherwise).
Solauren wrote: 2021-01-27 02:00pm And if the senate clears him, or doesn't convict him, under Double Jeopardy, he can't be tried again in Federal Court.
Impeachment and "trial" in the Senate is not a criminal proceeding. It does not invoke double jeopardy and will not bar subsequent trials in criminal or civil courts.

Although there's a number of Trumpists absolutely desperate to spare Trump any consequences because if he goes down they'll likely follow.
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Re: Will Trump end up as a 'secondary' president to the GOP?

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Zaune wrote: 2021-01-27 01:33pm I must admit I'm confused as to how impeaching an ex-President works, legally speaking. Can he not be prosecuted for misconduct in office as a private citizen now that he's left?
He can. The point of proceeding with an impeachment trial is to bar him from standing for elected office again. If he's convicted as a private citizen in the courts there's nothing to stop him from running from inside a jail cell; it's been done before.
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Re: Will Trump end up as a 'secondary' president to the GOP?

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Article 1, Section 3 wrote:The Senate shall have the sole Power to try all Impeachments. When sitting for that Purpose, they shall be on Oath or Affirmation. When the President of the United States is tried, the Chief Justice shall preside: And no Person shall be convicted without the Concurrence of two thirds of the Members present.

Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.
Article 1, Section 5 wrote:Each House shall be the Judge of the Elections, Returns and Qualifications of its own Members,and a Majority of each shall constitute a Quorum to do Business; but a smaller Number may adjourn from day to day, and may be authorized to compel the Attendance of absent Members, in such Manner, and under such Penalties as each House may provide.
So these two sections of the Constitution state that those convicted of Impeachment are subject to criminal proceedings above and beyond removal from office and barring from holding federal office. The senate also only needs 51 members to conduct business, and its 2/3 of those present to convict, not 2/3 of all Senators.
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Re: Will Trump end up as a 'secondary' president to the GOP?

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Which leads into a question I've heard a few people asking: If a Senator is a witness in the impeachment trial (say, because they helped the attackers scout the building the day before), can they take part in the conviction vote ?
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Re: Will Trump end up as a 'secondary' president to the GOP?

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bilateralrope wrote: 2021-01-27 06:30pm Which leads into a question I've heard a few people asking: If a Senator is a witness in the impeachment trial (say, because they helped the attackers scout the building the day before), can they take part in the conviction vote ?
Well of course. They're a Senator.
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Re: Will Trump end up as a 'secondary' president to the GOP?

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Ralin wrote: 2021-01-29 06:42am
bilateralrope wrote: 2021-01-27 06:30pm Which leads into a question I've heard a few people asking: If a Senator is a witness in the impeachment trial (say, because they helped the attackers scout the building the day before), can they take part in the conviction vote ?
Well of course. They're a Senator.
Conflict of Interest?
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Re: Will Trump end up as a 'secondary' president to the GOP?

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Solauren wrote: 2021-01-29 09:19am Conflict of Interest?
What about it? Impeachment trials are voted on by the Senate.
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Re: Will Trump end up as a 'secondary' president to the GOP?

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Yes, and if a senator is presenting evidence as part of said trial, isn't that senator voting a conflict of interest?
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Re: Will Trump end up as a 'secondary' president to the GOP?

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The entire Legislative branch has a conflict, and yes, several GOP Senators should be co-defendants. Luckily, this is a legal political process, not a legal criminal or civil court process, so conflict of interest isn't a card they can play against an impeachment trial.
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Re: Will Trump end up as a 'secondary' president to the GOP?

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Khaat wrote: 2021-01-29 10:33amThe entire Legislative branch has a conflict, and yes, several GOP Senators should be co-defendants. Luckily, this is a legal political process, not a legal criminal or civil court process, so conflict of interest isn't a card they can play against an impeachment trial.
It's not a card the Democrats can play to keep his accomplices from sabotaging the process either.
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Re: Will Trump end up as a 'secondary' president to the GOP?

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darkjedi521 wrote: 2021-01-27 05:15pm
Article 1, Section 3 wrote:The Senate shall have the sole Power to try all Impeachments. When sitting for that Purpose, they shall be on Oath or Affirmation. When the President of the United States is tried, the Chief Justice shall preside: And no Person shall be convicted without the Concurrence of two thirds of the Members present.

Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.
Article 1, Section 5 wrote:Each House shall be the Judge of the Elections, Returns and Qualifications of its own Members,and a Majority of each shall constitute a Quorum to do Business; but a smaller Number may adjourn from day to day, and may be authorized to compel the Attendance of absent Members, in such Manner, and under such Penalties as each House may provide.
So these two sections of the Constitution state that those convicted of Impeachment are subject to criminal proceedings above and beyond removal from office and barring from holding federal office. The senate also only needs 51 members to conduct business, and its 2/3 of those present to convict, not 2/3 of all Senators.
Yes, you can do further criminal proceedings on people removed from office. Yes, you technically don't need to have everyone show up for the vote, but rather just need quorum. However, trying to do the vote in the middle of the night so that you have just barely enough people to meet quorum looks so shady that you're liable to get issues if you try.
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Re: Will Trump end up as a 'secondary' president to the GOP?

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Kinda important.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politi ... n-n1258385
Further, these experts pointed to moves by Trump, in the final days of his presidency, to place allies in unusual positions like little-known advisory boards with close ties to decision-makers at key agencies, and low-level unpaid jobs on prestigious boards. Those allies retain access to lawmakers, decision-making processes and information that could ultimately make its way back to the former president.

“Under the guise of stopping a 'deep state' coup that never existed, Trump appears to have tried to create a deep state of his own,” said David Rohde, the author of the 2020 book “In Deep: The FBI, the CIA, and the Truth about America's 'Deep State'” and the executive editor of NewYorker.com. Rohde called that effort, if it had proceeded unfettered, “an existential threat to democracy.”
So, Michael Caputo and the coverup at HHS vis Covid was only part of it. Trump has created a Deep State Trump loyalists and given the influence of Caputo alone, they can have huge damaging impact on the US governance in Biden term.
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