Will Trump end up as a 'secondary' president to the GOP?

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

User avatar
Crossroads Inc.
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9233
Joined: 2005-03-20 06:26pm
Location: Defending Sparkeling Bishonen
Contact:

Will Trump end up as a 'secondary' president to the GOP?

Post by Crossroads Inc. »

I am “relatively” certain this warrants its own thread, if just because the conversation topic I feel is sufficiently removed from general conversation on the election… Anyways…

Right from the start, Trump held an almost supernatural sway over the die-hard-core base of the GOP. Over the last 4 years, he grew this to even more insane and cult-like levels to the point that, with a few simple words, he could destroy some republican’s career or make someone’s life a living hell.
On top of that, again with a few choice tweets, he could just as easily sink legislation that would have otherwise seem a sure thing. Sure he had the power of the Veto, but that was something almost never used as, for the most part, he would kill a bill he didn’t like before it got to him.

So what is the point of this?
Well, once he is [eventually] out of office… These “powers” don’t go away. He can still tweet, still yell, still throw tantrums and still spread poison to everyone that follows him.
The question is, in the next year and through Biden’s presidency, exactly how much will the GOP be running things? Or will it be Trump? Even as a private citizen, if Trump sets off a tweet storm that some GOP candidate seemed to displease him, will they be doomed? Will candidates still have to kiss his ring to get elected? Can he do the same to bills? If there is the RARE moment were a bill has GOP support, will it evaporate if Trump wags his finger?

The last four years have been bizarre enough already, now moving forward, I genuinely find myself curious if we may have a private citizen who may end up wielding more political power than the actual President?
Praying is another way of doing nothing helpful
"Congratulations, you get a cookie. You almost got a fundamental English word correct." Pick
"Outlaw star has spaceships that punch eachother" Joviwan
Read "Tales From The Crossroads"!
Read "One Wrong Turn"!
User avatar
Rogue 9
Scrapping TIEs since 1997
Posts: 18631
Joined: 2003-11-12 01:10pm
Location: Classified
Contact:

Re: Will Trump end up as a 'secondary' president to the GOP?

Post by Rogue 9 »

That's going to depend on the Georgia Senate runoffs. Well, his ability to bring the Republican Party to heel won't, but the Republicans' ability to effectively do his bidding will. I think the GOP is going to be dealing with the fallout of Trump's subversion of their base - or perhaps more accurately, addition to their base of a bunch of previously disaffected radicals and driving out of their base the moderate wing of the party - for years.
It's Rogue, not Rouge!

HAB | KotL | VRWC/ELC/CDA | TRotR | The Anti-Confederate | Sluggite | Gamer | Blogger | Staff Reporter | Student | Musician
User avatar
Crossroads Inc.
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9233
Joined: 2005-03-20 06:26pm
Location: Defending Sparkeling Bishonen
Contact:

Re: Will Trump end up as a 'secondary' president to the GOP?

Post by Crossroads Inc. »

You mean in terms of if the GOP retain control of the Senate or not?
Also, talk about "driving out the moderates and centrists" of the part is somewhat shaky. So far numbers show around 94 to 96% of all Republicans voted for Trump, thats actually UP from 2016. Talk about a "split" in the GOP, or them loosing moderates I would say may be deeply exagerated.
Last edited by Crossroads Inc. on 2020-11-13 08:57pm, edited 1 time in total.
Praying is another way of doing nothing helpful
"Congratulations, you get a cookie. You almost got a fundamental English word correct." Pick
"Outlaw star has spaceships that punch eachother" Joviwan
Read "Tales From The Crossroads"!
Read "One Wrong Turn"!
User avatar
Zaune
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7430
Joined: 2010-06-21 11:05am
Location: In Transit
Contact:

Re: Will Trump end up as a 'secondary' president to the GOP?

Post by Zaune »

Donald Trump, antipresident?

It's just been that sort of year, hasn't it.
There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just comes in to work every day and has a job to do.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Small Gods)


Replace "ginger" with "n*gger," and suddenly it become a lot less funny, doesn't it?
-- fgalkin


Like my writing? Tip me on Patreon

I Have A Blog
User avatar
Rogue 9
Scrapping TIEs since 1997
Posts: 18631
Joined: 2003-11-12 01:10pm
Location: Classified
Contact:

Re: Will Trump end up as a 'secondary' president to the GOP?

Post by Rogue 9 »

Crossroads Inc. wrote: 2020-11-13 08:55pm You mean in terms of if the GOP retain control of the Senate or not?
Also, talk about "driving out the moderates and centrists" of the part is somewhat shaky. So far numbers show around 94 to 96% of all Republicans voted for Trump, thats actually UP from 2016. Talk about a "split" in the GOP, or them loosing moderates I would say may be deeply exagerated.
Yes, I do mean that. If they don't control either house of Congress there's not much they can realistically do to jam up the government.

And he has driven a multitude of people out of the party. You can look to the existence of the Lincoln Project, or the many groups of former Republican prosecutors, career intelligence officials, career defense officials, and on and on who put out letters and statements condemning him and endorsing Biden.
It's Rogue, not Rouge!

HAB | KotL | VRWC/ELC/CDA | TRotR | The Anti-Confederate | Sluggite | Gamer | Blogger | Staff Reporter | Student | Musician
User avatar
Crossroads Inc.
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9233
Joined: 2005-03-20 06:26pm
Location: Defending Sparkeling Bishonen
Contact:

Re: Will Trump end up as a 'secondary' president to the GOP?

Post by Crossroads Inc. »

Ok, I got you on that end. True there have been DROVES of very long term moderate Republicans.
I guess for me, many of those people I tend to write off as "not mattering" as they are politicians themselves, and not "your average voter" as it were.
Of course the numbers, like so many other things, could have been heavily skewed depending on how they were taken.
Praying is another way of doing nothing helpful
"Congratulations, you get a cookie. You almost got a fundamental English word correct." Pick
"Outlaw star has spaceships that punch eachother" Joviwan
Read "Tales From The Crossroads"!
Read "One Wrong Turn"!
User avatar
RogueIce
_______
Posts: 13385
Joined: 2003-01-05 01:36am
Location: Tampa Bay, Florida, USA
Contact:

Re: Will Trump end up as a 'secondary' president to the GOP?

Post by RogueIce »

Rogue 9 wrote: 2020-11-13 09:02pm Yes, I do mean that. If they don't control either house of Congress there's not much they can realistically do to jam up the government.
They have 50 seats in the Senate, so even if both GA seats go D, all it takes is one defector if the Republicans vote in lock-step. It's really going to come down to who can maintain party unity the best.

Granted if Trump does still hold some "unofficial sway" that could work out well for the Dems because they'll have that to pressure any of their more reluctant conservative members to "not follow Trump" if he tweets against some contentious bill.
Image
"How can I wait unknowing?
This is the price of war,
We rise with noble intentions,
And we risk all that is pure..." - Angela & Jeff van Dyck, Forever (Rome: Total War)

"On and on, through the years,
The war continues on..." - Angela & Jeff van Dyck, We Are All One (Medieval 2: Total War)
"Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear." - Ambrose Redmoon
"You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain." - Harvey Dent, The Dark Knight
User avatar
Rogue 9
Scrapping TIEs since 1997
Posts: 18631
Joined: 2003-11-12 01:10pm
Location: Classified
Contact:

Re: Will Trump end up as a 'secondary' president to the GOP?

Post by Rogue 9 »

Well, if the people he drove from the party changed their party affiliation, they wouldn't be in the set of "Republicans" for him to have captured 95% of. I realize the plural of anecdote is not data, but given my own past and present political leanings, I know a great number of people who have left the Republican Party both post-Tea Party and post-Trump (though mostly the former).
It's Rogue, not Rouge!

HAB | KotL | VRWC/ELC/CDA | TRotR | The Anti-Confederate | Sluggite | Gamer | Blogger | Staff Reporter | Student | Musician
User avatar
GuppyShark
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2829
Joined: 2005-03-13 06:52am
Location: South Australia

Re: Will Trump end up as a 'secondary' president to the GOP?

Post by GuppyShark »

The house and senate results seem to indicate that the anti-Trump 'moderates' still voted (R) down ticket.
User avatar
LadyTevar
White Mage
White Mage
Posts: 23148
Joined: 2003-02-12 10:59pm

Re: Will Trump end up as a 'secondary' president to the GOP?

Post by LadyTevar »

If the BEST RESULT happens, and Trump goes to jail, then he'll be unable to Tweet or influence people as openly as he will now. IF he goes to Jail, the rest of the GOP rats will leap off the ship, and do their damnest to wash off the stench of association.

That is, however, a Great Big IF.
Image
Nitram, slightly high on cough syrup: Do you know you're beautiful?
Me: Nope, that's why I have you around to tell me.
Nitram: You -are- beautiful. Anyone tries to tell you otherwise kill them.

"A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP" -- Leonard Nimoy, last Tweet
bilateralrope
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5938
Joined: 2005-06-25 06:50pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: Will Trump end up as a 'secondary' president to the GOP?

Post by bilateralrope »

Crossroads Inc. wrote: 2020-11-13 08:40pm He can still tweet, still yell, still throw tantrums and still spread poison to everyone that follows him.
That is not guaranteed. Twitter is claiming that, once he leaves office, they will put him under the same rules as everyone else, not the protected status he currently has. If Twitter keeps their word, he will probably be banned mid-tantrum at the latest.
User avatar
Knife
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 15769
Joined: 2002-08-30 02:40pm
Location: Behind the Zion Curtain

Re: Will Trump end up as a 'secondary' president to the GOP?

Post by Knife »

Yes, the man is going to be heavily investigated on National and State levels after al the shenanigans. Reams of info will be released at some point. He will probably retain a chunk of his supporters, but not enough to be any sort of unofficial leader.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
User avatar
Elheru Aran
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13073
Joined: 2004-03-04 01:15am
Location: Georgia

Re: Will Trump end up as a 'secondary' president to the GOP?

Post by Elheru Aran »

Knife wrote: 2020-11-14 11:13am Yes, the man is going to be heavily investigated on National and State levels after al the shenanigans. Reams of info will be released at some point. He will probably retain a chunk of his supporters, but not enough to be any sort of unofficial leader.
Depending on how hard he can hit the 'it's all a huge conspiracy/fraud/whatever' and 'TRUE AMERICAN' buttons in advance, he may retain enough of the lunatic fringe to tip scales. As we see in Georgia and other states, Republican margins are getting extremely thin and him endorsing or condemning a candidate could add or pull just enough voters away to influence their chances. That's assuming he doesn't get locked up, of course.
It's a strange world. Let's keep it that way.
User avatar
Crossroads Inc.
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9233
Joined: 2005-03-20 06:26pm
Location: Defending Sparkeling Bishonen
Contact:

Re: Will Trump end up as a 'secondary' president to the GOP?

Post by Crossroads Inc. »

Yeah, ideally "LOCK HIM UP" is best, but that could be years down the road, real question is will he still be "a thing" by mid terms in 2022?
GOP margins ARE super thin these days, and, yeah, until / unless Twitter takes away his account, he will still influence things.
Praying is another way of doing nothing helpful
"Congratulations, you get a cookie. You almost got a fundamental English word correct." Pick
"Outlaw star has spaceships that punch eachother" Joviwan
Read "Tales From The Crossroads"!
Read "One Wrong Turn"!
User avatar
Solauren
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10172
Joined: 2003-05-11 09:41pm

Re: Will Trump end up as a 'secondary' president to the GOP?

Post by Solauren »

You're missing how much was already pilling up against him, waiting for him to lose power.

#1 - Twitter is going to remove his protected status once he's out of office. With the stuff he posts, he'll be off Twitter within a week.
Frankly, I'd be surprised if he wasn't kicked off within 24 hours.

#2 - Any criminal investigation he interfered with, ordered stopped, or the like, even if it was indirectly via firing someone, is going to start back up, and have him added to it for obstruction.

#3 - There are apparently numerous state and federal level investigations pending against him. In theory, he could 'Pardon' himself of any federal level crimes, but I believe that involves him confessing to them all first. Those confessions could in theory still be used against him at the State level.
Even if they can't be used against him, this pardon would have no impact on state level charges.

(Quite frankly, I believe he ran for the Presidency as a joke at first, then went forward with it when he realized it might protect him from criminal investigations)

#4 - Without the power of the Presidency, I can see a lot of people he defamed over the last 5 years (counting his initial campaign) suing his ass off in civil court. (I'd go after him. His twitter account is a record he himself as verified of his statements)


The only thing that is going to come out of his Presidency that might benefit the GOP is identifying who they need to lose (Trumps base), and possibly profits from book sales for their members that own publishing companies. I can see every member of his senior staff and administration publishing books over their time in office.
I've been asked why I still follow a few of the people I know on Facebook with 'interesting political habits and view points'.

It's so when they comment on or approve of something, I know what pages to block/what not to vote for.
bilateralrope
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5938
Joined: 2005-06-25 06:50pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: Will Trump end up as a 'secondary' president to the GOP?

Post by bilateralrope »

Solauren wrote: 2020-11-14 03:36pm #3 - There are apparently numerous state and federal level investigations pending against him. In theory, he could 'Pardon' himself of any federal level crimes, but I believe that involves him confessing to them all first. Those confessions could in theory still be used against him at the State level.
Where are you getting the idea that he needs to confess from ?

I've never heard that before.
User avatar
Lord Revan
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 12211
Joined: 2004-05-20 02:23pm
Location: Zone:classified

Re: Will Trump end up as a 'secondary' president to the GOP?

Post by Lord Revan »

Solauren wrote: 2020-11-14 03:36pm You're missing how much was already pilling up against him, waiting for him to lose power.

#1 - Twitter is going to remove his protected status once he's out of office. With the stuff he posts, he'll be off Twitter within a week.
Frankly, I'd be surprised if he wasn't kicked off within 24 hours.

#2 - Any criminal investigation he interfered with, ordered stopped, or the like, even if it was indirectly via firing someone, is going to start back up, and have him added to it for obstruction.

#3 - There are apparently numerous state and federal level investigations pending against him. In theory, he could 'Pardon' himself of any federal level crimes, but I believe that involves him confessing to them all first. Those confessions could in theory still be used against him at the State level.
Even if they can't be used against him, this pardon would have no impact on state level charges.

(Quite frankly, I believe he ran for the Presidency as a joke at first, then went forward with it when he realized it might protect him from criminal investigations)

#4 - Without the power of the Presidency, I can see a lot of people he defamed over the last 5 years (counting his initial campaign) suing his ass off in civil court. (I'd go after him. His twitter account is a record he himself as verified of his statements)


The only thing that is going to come out of his Presidency that might benefit the GOP is identifying who they need to lose (Trumps base), and possibly profits from book sales for their members that own publishing companies. I can see every member of his senior staff and administration publishing books over their time in office.
From what I've heard he also owes a lot of money to people and his investments/companies aren't really giving enough (or at all) profit counter that.
I may be an idiot, but I'm a tolerated idiot
"I think you completely missed the point of sigs. They're supposed to be completely homegrown in the fertile hydroponics lab of your mind, dried in your closet, rolled, and smoked...
Oh wait, that's marijuana..."Einhander Sn0m4n
User avatar
Mr Bean
Lord of Irony
Posts: 22431
Joined: 2002-07-04 08:36am

Re: Will Trump end up as a 'secondary' president to the GOP?

Post by Mr Bean »

bilateralrope wrote: 2020-11-15 03:19am
Solauren wrote: 2020-11-14 03:36pm #3 - There are apparently numerous state and federal level investigations pending against him. In theory, he could 'Pardon' himself of any federal level crimes, but I believe that involves him confessing to them all first. Those confessions could in theory still be used against him at the State level.
Where are you getting the idea that he needs to confess from ?

I've never heard that before.
There's a supreme court case stating that acceptation a pardon is an acceptance of guilt. And you can be hauled into Congress because having a pardon means admitting your guilt. The Arizona sheriff, Joe Arpaio was a recent example of someone accepting a pardon then trying to claim no guilt and getting shut down hard by the Judiciary.

"A cult is a religion with no political power." -Tom Wolfe
Pardon me for sounding like a dick, but I'm playing the tiniest violin in the world right now-Dalton
User avatar
Vendetta
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10895
Joined: 2002-07-07 04:57pm
Location: Sheffield, UK

Re: Will Trump end up as a 'secondary' president to the GOP?

Post by Vendetta »

The other thing about a pardon is that if you've received a pardon for something you can be compelled to testify about it. Because the fifth amenment protection against self incrimination is no longer relevant, you've been pardoned anyway.
Ralin
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4329
Joined: 2008-08-28 04:23am

Re: Will Trump end up as a 'secondary' president to the GOP?

Post by Ralin »

Solauren wrote: 2020-11-14 03:36pm
#1 - Twitter is going to remove his protected status once he's out of office. With the stuff he posts, he'll be off Twitter within a week.
Frankly, I'd be surprised if he wasn't kicked off within 24 hours.
Thereby offering a once in a lifetime opportunity to whatever social media platform he moves to. There are already social media sites that are having right-wing influxes. Trump can probably make any one of them the next big thing, or at least give them a serious boost in that direction. While it might be nice if that means fewer right-wingers on Twitter and Facebook it'll make it that much easier to set up toxic echo chambers.
bilateralrope
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5938
Joined: 2005-06-25 06:50pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: Will Trump end up as a 'secondary' president to the GOP?

Post by bilateralrope »

Mr Bean wrote: 2020-11-15 07:14am There's a supreme court case stating that acceptation a pardon is an acceptance of guilt. And you can be hauled into Congress because having a pardon means admitting your guilt. The Arizona sheriff, Joe Arpaio was a recent example of someone accepting a pardon then trying to claim no guilt and getting shut down hard by the Judiciary.
What if the pardon is for "all crimes between {date} and {date}" ?

Yes, it's acceptance of guilt for something. But it's not guilt for anything specific.
Ralin wrote: 2020-11-15 09:00am
Solauren wrote: 2020-11-14 03:36pm
#1 - Twitter is going to remove his protected status once he's out of office. With the stuff he posts, he'll be off Twitter within a week.
Frankly, I'd be surprised if he wasn't kicked off within 24 hours.
Thereby offering a once in a lifetime opportunity to whatever social media platform he moves to. There are already social media sites that are having right-wing influxes. Trump can probably make any one of them the next big thing, or at least give them a serious boost in that direction. While it might be nice if that means fewer right-wingers on Twitter and Facebook it'll make it that much easier to set up toxic echo chambers.
Unless they scare away advertisers. Then the social media platform has a choice: Kick out the Trumpers or lose income.
User avatar
Eternal_Freedom
Castellan
Posts: 10361
Joined: 2010-03-09 02:16pm
Location: CIC, Battlestar Temeraire

Re: Will Trump end up as a 'secondary' president to the GOP?

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

I'm not an expert, but I don't think you can do "blanket pardons" like you suggest - I think it's for specific things you have been charged with, convicted off or admitted to.
Baltar: "I don't want to miss a moment of the last Battlestar's destruction!"
Centurion: "Sir, I really think you should look at the other Battlestar."
Baltar: "What are you babbling about other...it's impossible!"
Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."

Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.
User avatar
Knife
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 15769
Joined: 2002-08-30 02:40pm
Location: Behind the Zion Curtain

Re: Will Trump end up as a 'secondary' president to the GOP?

Post by Knife »

Eternal_Freedom wrote: 2020-11-15 01:10pm I'm not an expert, but I don't think you can do "blanket pardons" like you suggest - I think it's for specific things you have been charged with, convicted off or admitted to.
To be a pardon, it has to list the crime you're being pardoned from. If you accept the pardon, you're claiming you're guilty of listed crime.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
bilateralrope
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5938
Joined: 2005-06-25 06:50pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: Will Trump end up as a 'secondary' president to the GOP?

Post by bilateralrope »

I listen to a podcast called All the Presidents Lawyers. The lawyer on there, a former federal prosecutor, says that the pardon only needs to be specific enough that it's clear if it applies to any prosecution attempt that might be made in the future.

So I'd like to see some source for this claim that a pardon needs to specify the crimes.
User avatar
TimothyC
Of Sector 2814
Posts: 3793
Joined: 2005-03-23 05:31pm

Re: Will Trump end up as a 'secondary' president to the GOP?

Post by TimothyC »

Knife wrote: 2020-11-15 01:28pm
Eternal_Freedom wrote: 2020-11-15 01:10pm I'm not an expert, but I don't think you can do "blanket pardons" like you suggest - I think it's for specific things you have been charged with, convicted off or admitted to.
To be a pardon, it has to list the crime you're being pardoned from. If you accept the pardon, you're claiming you're guilty of listed crime.
Ford's Pardon of Nixon says:
Now, therefore, I, Gerald R. Ford, President of the United States, pursuant to the pardon power conferred upon me by Article II, Section 2, of the Constitution, have granted and by these presents do grant a full, free, and absolute pardon unto Richard Nixon for all offenses against the United States which he, Richard Nixon, has committed or may have committed or taken part in during the period from July (January) 20, 1969 through August 9, 1974.
LINK

Ergo, a pardon for anything done over a specified period is possible, but as noted, it would also open up "Individual 1" to testifying before congress on anything and everything that he did that wasn't overtly classified.
"I believe in the future. It is wonderful because it stands on what has been achieved." - Sergei Korolev
Post Reply