SUPERTHREAD: 2020 United States Elections

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Re: SUPERTHREAD: 2020 United States Elections

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-03-25 01:45pm

Bernie holds the line:

https://nbcnews.com/politics/2020-elect ... o-n1168041
WASHINGTON — Lacking a meaningful path to the Democratic nomination at a moment when the coronavirus crisis is gripping Washington and the country, Bernie Sanders stepped back from actively campaigning for president over the past week, leading some Democrats to wonder whether he would soon leave the race altogether.

But Tuesday, Sanders appeared to signal anew that he is in the race for the long haul: His campaign announced a full organizing effort ahead of New York's scheduled April 28 primary, and a spokesman said he would participate in a debate with former Vice President Joe Biden — if there is one.

"Bernie Sanders is still a candidate for the Democratic nomination," senior adviser Jeff Weaver told NBC News on Tuesday in response to a question about the New York efforts. "One of the things that means is working to secure votes in future contests."

Publicly, Sanders, an independent senator from Vermont, has targeted his attention and comments to his work in the Senate as Congress readies a legislative response to the crisis. Advisers say he's balanced his responsibilities, privately seeking input from supporters to "assess a path forward" for his presidential campaign — and his larger political movement.

"We are in a bizarre moment," Sanders admitted Monday night in an interview on MSNBC's "All In with Chris Hayes," adding, "so what we are doing is transitioning our campaign to a virtual campaign."

"We're kind of moving day by day," Sanders said later.

That message has led to mixed signals from his campaign about the path forward.

Most of his traditional campaign operations have halted, and for the past week there have been no in-person events, no paid advertising and no way to earn real media attention as the pandemic and the economic crisis have pushed the election out of the headlines.

But while Sanders has avoided a direct decision or announcement about what lies ahead, his campaign has maintained both a policy effort and a virtual push to continue building support.

In announcing its efforts in delegate-rich New York, Sanders' campaign touted thousands of volunteers joining an organizing call, later committing to 1,300 digital voter outreach shifts. Rafael Návar, who led Sanders' winning California operation, has moved his focus to New York as the campaign's state director.

New York is the center of the coronavirus pandemic, far outpacing any other state in its numbers of diagnoses and deaths. While other states with coming primaries have pushed back their election dates, New York has not yet made a similar move.

Asked about escalating a campaign operation amid a growing health emergency, a state campaign aide suggested that in a time of "social distancing," people are searching for ways to connect and engage with one another and are using his campaign to do it.

Sanders, for his part, has stayed publicly focused on combating the crisis. He's held five coronavirus-focused livestream events involving musical performances and top endorsers to mirror his campaign events of the past.

The streams, each quickly earning well over a millions views, have provided an easy and unchallenged outlet for Sanders to share information and push for his policy prescriptions, especially "Medicare for All."

The Sanders campaign has also used its massive social media following and email and texts list to push donations to nine relief organizations, a notable shift from primary election footing.

But his path forward is still unclear. Including his win among Democrats Abroad on Monday, Sanders has won only nine of the 29 contests held so far. According to the NBC News delegate count, he trails Biden by more than 300 delegates and would have to win about 63 percent of the remaining pledged delegates to clinch the nomination on the first ballot.

Yet none of this has stopped his most devoted supporters and staffers from continuing their attacks on Biden — aggressively responding to criticism from other Democrats, mocking Biden and continuing the fight against "the establishment."

Joe Biden doesn’t support Medicare for All, and, in the middle of a pandemic, suggested he’d veto a #M4All bill that passed the house and senate.

The scandal is Biden’s position, not that Bernie is fighting to fix America. https://t.co/2829p9NwNc

— Briahna Joy Gray (@briebriejoy) March 21, 2020
"I continue my critiques against Biden, in some ways just even, with the hope that his team and other people see them and try to improve," Shaun King, a top Sanders surrogate, told NBC News after using twitter to dismiss a short coronavirus video posted by Biden as “a rambling mess.”

“I still feel very strongly that Biden would waffle and struggle against Trump,” King explained.

Download the NBC News app for breaking news and politics

While Biden's campaign touts its strong delegate advantage, the former vice president has publicly held back on pressuring Sanders to drop his campaign. "It's up to Bernie what he wants to do," he said in an appearance Tuesday on "The View."

Richard Rodriguez, a board member of Our Revolution, the outside group founded by Sanders to promote and nationally organize around his policies, said his advice would be to "stay in!"

"Now people are looking at things in a new context and new light," Rodriguez said. "As families come together, they are looking at the quality of their health care."

He said Our Revolution has shifted messaging in recent weeks as the coronavirus crisis has escalated, increasing the push for Medicare for All and opposing the for-profit health care industry "now more than ever before."
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.

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Re: SUPERTHREAD: 2020 United States Elections

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-03-25 01:51pm

Thirteen primaries are now delayed, partly to give time to switch to wider use of mail ballots.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/13 ... ronavirus/
The coronavirus pandemic continues to grind everyday life to a halt — and in many states, that means postponing elections. A total of 12 states and Puerto Rico have now pushed back their presidential primaries, leaving a gaping hole in the primary calendar and leaving some states with precious little time to prepare for the Democratic National Convention. Since our last update, five more in-person presidential primaries have been rescheduled due to COVID-19:

Last Thursday, Connecticut Gov. Ned Lamont, with the support of local election officials and the secretary of state, moved Connecticut’s presidential primary from April 28 to June 2. Connecticut law allows the governor to modify and suspend statutes during public-health emergencies.
Last Friday, Indiana delayed its primaries for both president and down-ballot offices from May 5 to June 2. Gov. Eric Holcomb did so by executive order but made the announcement jointly with the secretary of state and leaders of the state Democratic and Republican parties. On Wednesday, the Indiana Election Commission also decreed that absentee voting be an option for all voters (under normal circumstances, Indiana requires an excuse to request an absentee ballot).
Puerto Rico Gov. Wanda Vázquez Garced signed a bill moving the primary from March 29 to April 26, with the option for the presidents of the Puerto Rico Democratic Party and State Elections Commission to postpone it further if the coronavirus crisis has not ended by then.
On Monday, Rhode Island Gov. Gina Raimondo, at the request of the state Board of Elections, signed an executive order moving the presidential primary from April 28 to June 2. She also directed the board to devise a plan to conduct “a predominantly mail ballot primary.”
Finally, Delaware joined the exodus by moving its presidential primary from April 28 to June 2. As recently as last week, election officials were saying they had no plans to reschedule, but Gov. John Carney issued an executive order to postpone (and designate COVID-19 as a valid excuse to cast an absentee ballot) on Tuesday.
Given former Vice President Joe Biden’s extremely strong position, these changes may not affect who wins the Democratic nomination for president. But that’s not the case for every election that’s being delayed. Many still-competitive primaries are also being postponed down ballot, which means there’s more uncertainty around the outcome and less time for general-election campaigning. For example, primary runoff elections in Alabama and Texas have both been moved to July 14 (previously, Alabama’s were scheduled for March 31, and Texas’s for May 26); among others, Democratic Sen. Doug Jones and Republican Sen. John Cornyn must now wait months before knowing the identities of their November opponents as a result. Congressional primary runoffs were also delayed to June 23 in North Carolina (from May 12) and Mississippi (from March 31).

Other states have responded to the coronavirus pandemic by leaning more heavily into voting by mail. For example, rather than reschedule the May 12 special election in California’s 25th Congressional District, the state will mail a ballot to every voter instead. And Nevada has now announced plans to conduct its June 9 down-ballot primary predominantly by mail. Most drastically, three upcoming party-run presidential primaries where mail voting was already the default option will now be 100 percent vote-by-mail. Alaska, Hawaii and Wyoming will no longer offer any in-person voting on April 4, which — in order to ensure everyone still has the opportunity to vote — has effectively delayed those primaries as well:

In order to accommodate those who had planned on voting in person on April 4, Alaska has extended the deadline to vote by mail from a postmark date of March 24 to a receipt date of April 10. All Alaska Democrats had already been mailed a ballot, but now they can download one from the state party’s website as well.
In lieu of opening 21 in-person voting centers, Hawaii will send another wave of mail ballots to anyone who registers with the party by April 4. The state party has not yet announced a new deadline for ballots to be mailed back; however, it is now saying that results will not be available until late May, indicating that the primary will be significantly delayed.
Wyoming had already canceled the in-person caucus component of its vote-by-mail/caucus hybrid presidential contest, but over the weekend it also removed the option for people to vote in person. People who registered too late to receive a ballot in the mail the first time around will now be mailed a ballot, and voters can request replacement ballots (e.g., if they threw it out in anticipation of voting in person) until March 31. Previously, ballots had to be postmarked by March 20 or dropped off by April 4 in order to count, but the party will now accept ballots that arrive as late as April 17.
It was relatively simple for the three states above to embrace mail voting, since they were already planning to conduct these elections mostly by mail anyway.1 But other states lack the money and infrastructure to process millions of mail ballots; Maryland, for example, postponed its primary over a week ago in part because it determined it was infeasible to hold an all-mail primary on the original date of April 28. Still, as mentioned above, some states that aren’t accustomed to heavy mail voting (e.g., Rhode Island) nevertheless are making an effort to expand its use, given enough time to prepare.

More election changes are almost certainly coming down the pike. For example, over the weekend, Pennsylvania’s governor and legislative leaders reached a deal to delay its primary from April 28 to June 2; a bill to that effect is currently working its way through the legislature. And in Ohio, legislators are working on passing a bill that would turn the Ohio primary into a vote-by-mail election, with ballots due April 28. (Ohio had already postponed its primary, previously scheduled for March 17.) We’ll continue to provide regular updates.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.

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Re: SUPERTHREAD: 2020 United States Elections

Post by Ziggy Stardust » 2020-03-25 02:26pm

Trump's approval ratings are currently tied for the highest they have ever been during his term, getting an uptick from people apparently viewing his coronavirus response favorably. Amazing to me how even the non-Fox News guzzling mouthbreathers of this country are seeing what Trump is doing and thinking, "Yes ... yes this is exactly what we need!"

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Re: SUPERTHREAD: 2020 United States Elections

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-03-25 03:43pm

Ziggy Stardust wrote:
2020-03-25 02:26pm
Trump's approval ratings are currently tied for the highest they have ever been during his term, getting an uptick from people apparently viewing his coronavirus response favorably. Amazing to me how even the non-Fox News guzzling mouthbreathers of this country are seeing what Trump is doing and thinking, "Yes ... yes this is exactly what we need!"
He's not quite up to an all-time high yet, but he's gone up, yeah. Its quite disgusting.

I'm guessing, though, that its his week of acting vaguely like a real President, and that now that he's back to pretending there's no problem, they'll start to drop. Especially once the death toll really starts rising...

In other news, due to primaries being postponed, June 2nd had effectively become a second Super Tuesday, with as many as twelve primaries due to be held:

https://nytimes.com/2020/03/25/us/polit ... une-2.hmtl

Edit: Link doesn't work, not sure why.

Anyway, it looks like Biden won't be able to get a majority before June Second, so with Bernie unwilling to drop out now, it'll likely end there.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.

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Re: SUPERTHREAD: 2020 United States Elections

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-03-26 01:59pm

Looks like Joe has rejected another debate:

https://cnn.com/2020/03/25/politics/joe ... index.html
(CNN)Joe Biden said Wednesday that Democrats have "had enough" debates, suggesting he is unwilling to have another one-on-one showdown with Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders.

"My focus is just dealing with this crisis right now. I haven't thought about any more debates. I think we've had enough debates. I think we should get on with this," Biden said when asked by CNN whether he would debate Sanders again.

Visit CNN's Election Center for full coverage of the 2020 race
The former vice president's comment, during a press conference with reporters video-streamed from Biden's home in Delaware, comes the day after a Sanders aide said the senator would participate in an April debate.

"If there is a debate in April, he plans to be there," Sanders communications director Mike Casca said Tuesday.

Sanders said in an interview on CNN's "Anderson Cooper 360" on Wednesday that he disagrees with Biden.

"I think we need a good debate as to where we go, not only just now but in the future," Sanders told Cooper. "And to my mind, if there's anything that this unexpected moment in American history should teach us, we've got to rethink the basic structures of American society, and that is guaranteed health care to all as a human right, creating an economy that provides for all people not just the wealthy."

His comment was an indication that -- despite Biden's overwhelming delegate lead, and states pushing back their primaries amid the coronavirus pandemic -- Sanders intends to remain in the Democratic nominating contest.

The Democratic National Committee's initial debate schedule had included an April meeting. A DNC aide said Wednesday that the party had no updates about an April debate -- but added that there is no venue, media partner or date set for the hypothetical contest.

Biden's comments reflect a desire among many Democrats for the party to move past its primary and focus on President Donald Trump.
It takes 1,991 delegates to win the Democratic nomination. CNN's delegate estimate shows Biden with 1,155 pledged delegates so far -- well ahead of Sanders' 840. Biden also has clear momentum, sweeping the latest round of primaries on March 17 with dominant wins in Arizona, Florida and Illinois.

But the pandemic has led some states to push their primaries into June, opening up the possibility that it could take more than two months for a candidate to cross the threshold needed to clinch the nomination.

Biden has said his staff and Sanders' staff are in contact, but that the two candidates haven't spoken personally.

CNN's Annie Grayer contributed to this report.
I can't say that he's wrong to do it, but he shouldn't be doing it on the grounds that there's no need for more debates and (implicitly) that the race is over. That'll just a) piss of Sanders supporters, and b) make him seem unwilling or unable to defend his own positions.

Now, if he'd said "I don't think we should do another debate because even another one with no audience would require me to leave home/surround myself with camera crews and increase the risk of spreading COVID-19", then I'd agree completely. I think Bernie's in error to ask for another debate right now, unless they're willing to do it over Skype or something with zero staff. But Biden should make that argument.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.

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Re: SUPERTHREAD: 2020 United States Elections

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-03-26 04:25pm

More sex abuse allegations against Joe Biden:

https://theintercept.com/2020/03/24/joe ... -times-up/
LAST APRIL, Tara Reade watched as a familiar conversation around her former boss, Joe Biden, and his relationship with personal space unfolded on the national stage. Nevada politician Lucy Flores alleged that Biden had inappropriately sniffed her hair and kissed the back of her head as she waited to go on stage at a rally in 2014. Biden, in a statement in response, said that “not once” in his career did he believe that he had acted inappropriately. But Flores’s allegation sounded accurate to Reade, she said, because Reade had experienced something very similar as a staffer in Biden’s Senate office years earlier.

After she saw an episode of the ABC show “The View,” in which most of the panelists stood up for Biden and attacked Flores as politically motivated, Reade decided that she had no choice but to come forward and support Flores. She gave an interview to a local reporter, describing several instances in which Biden had behaved similarly toward her, inappropriately touching her during her early-’90s tenure in his Senate office. In that first interview, she decided to tell a piece of the story, she said, that matched what had happened to Flores — plus, she had filed a contemporaneous complaint, and there were witnesses, so she considered the allegation bulletproof. The short article brought a wave of attention on her, along with accusations that she was doing the bidding of Russian President Vladimir Putin. So Reade went quiet.

To get legal help, Tara Reade reached out to Time’s Up, established in the wake of the #MeToo movement to help survivors tell their stories.

As the campaign went on, Reade, who first supported Sen. Elizabeth Warren and then Sen. Bernie Sanders, began to reconsider staying silent. She thought about the world she wanted her daughter to live in and decided that she wanted to continue telling her story and push back against what she saw as online defamation. To get legal help, and manage what she knew from her first go-around would be serious backlash, she reached out to the organization Time’s Up, established in the wake of the #MeToo movement to help survivors tell their stories.

The Time’s Up Legal Defense Fund was the recipient of an outpouring of donations over the past two-plus years, and is set up as a 501(c)3 nonprofit housed within the National Women’s Law Center. It was launched in December 2017 and was the most successful GoFundMe in the site’s history, raising more than $24 million. Among the accusers backed so far by Time’s Up are some of those assaulted by Harvey Weinstein, as well scores of others with allegations against executives in male-dominated industries. The group has committed more than $10 million toward funding cases.

In January of this year, Reade spoke with a program director at NWLC and was encouraged by the conversation. The fact that she was a Sanders supporter and had come forward previously in incomplete fashion didn’t dissuade Time’s Up. The program director referred her to outside attorneys, Reade said, and suggested that the Time’s Up Legal Defense Fund might be able to provide funding for PR and subsidize legal assistance.

The program director shared with Reade the note she planned to forward to attorneys, which read, in part:

She began publicly sharing the harassment she experienced in April 2019 but was attacked … online including by Richard Painter (Univ. of MN law professor who worked in the Obama administration) and journalist Edward-Isaac Dovere for being a Russian operative. There is more to the story of the harassment that she did not feel safe sharing at that time. She is looking for support in sharing her story and guidance on any possible legal action she may be able to take against online harassers. [Editor’s note: Painter served in the Bush, not Obama, administration, and ran for Senate in 2018 as a Democrat.]

The references to Dovere, a reporter with The Atlantic, and Painter stem from their Twitter posts that highlighted favorable comments Reade had made about Putin in a now-deleted post on Medium. “What if I told you that everything you learned about Russia was wrong?” she had written in one 2018 post. “President Putin scares the power elite in America because he is a compassionate, caring, visionary leader. … To President Putin, I say keep your eyes to the beautiful future and maybe, just maybe America will come to see Russia as I do, with eyes of love. To all my Russian friends, happy holiday and Happy New Year.”

Reade says that she learned about Russia and Putin through a Russian friend in her creative-writing group; she is currently writing a novel set in Russia. She wrote the post in the spirit of world peace and solidarity with her friend, she said, adding that the writing should have nothing to do with her allegation. Reade’s leftist mother had raised her to oppose American imperialism and be skeptical of American exceptionalism. She hoped that Time’s Up would be able to help push back against the attacks she knew would be coming.

By February, she learned from a new conversation with Time’s Up, which also involved Director Sharyn Tejani, that no assistance could be provided because the person she was accusing, Biden, was a candidate for federal office, and assisting a case against him could jeopardize the organization’s nonprofit status.

On February 11, the NWLC program director wrote to Reade that she “wanted to let you know that after our conversation I talked further with our Director, Sharyn Tejani, about our ability to offer funding or public relations support in your case. Unfortunately, the Fund’s decision remains the same. … Please know how much I appreciate your courage in speaking out and appreciate what you shared over the phone, that you are speaking out so that your daughter and other young people can start their careers free of harassment.”

When reached for comment by The Intercept, the program director Reade had spoken to referred questions to a NWLC spokesperson, Maria Patrick, who said that the organization has legal constraints. “As a nonprofit 501(c)(3) charitable organization, the National Women’s Law Center is restricted in how it can spend its funds, including restrictions that pertain to candidates running for election,” Patrick responded, when asked why the organizing declined to provide funds to Reade. “Our decision on whether or not to provide certain types of support to an individual should not be interpreted as our validation or doubt of the truthfulness of the person’s statements. Regardless, our support of workers who come forward regarding workplace sexual harassment remains unwavering.”

By February, Reade learned that no assistance could be provided because Biden was a candidate for federal office, and assisting a case against him, Time’s Up said, could jeopardize the organization’s nonprofit status.

Ruling out federal candidates marks as off-limits any member of Congress running for reelection, as well as President Donald Trump. Ellen Aprill, a professor of tax law at Loyola Law School in Los Angeles, said that Time’s Up’s analysis is too conservative, and the group wouldn’t be putting its tax-exempt status at risk by taking a case involving a candidate for federal office as long as it followed its standard criteria for taking on cases. “As a legal matter, if the group is clear regarding the criteria used as to whom it is taking to court, show that these are long-established neutral criteria, and they are being applied to individuals completely independent of their running for office, it would not be a violation of tax law. Groups are allowed to continue to do what they have always done,” she said.

The public relations firm that works on behalf of the Time’s Up Legal Defense Fund is SKDKnickerbocker, whose managing director, Anita Dunn, is the top adviser to Biden’s presidential campaign. A spokesperson for Biden declined to comment. The SKDK spokesperson assigned to Time’s Up referred questions back to the NWLC.

As for influencing the election, Reade said that she was deeply conflicted about continuing to come forward, given that Biden’s opponent in the general election is someone she sees as far worse politically. “I don’t want to help Trump. But what can I do?” she said. “All I can do is stand on my truth.”

Update: March 26, 2020
Reade has given an interview with podcast host Katie Halper, describing her time in Biden’s office, and what she described as a sexual assault in 1993. At the time, she told her mother, brother, and a friend who worked in Sen. Ted Kennedy’s office about the incident. Her mother has since passed away, but both her friend and brother told The Intercept they recalled hearing about it from her at the time. Reade’s friend, who asked to remain anonymous so as not to be part of the public blowback, said she discouraged Reade from coming forward at all, concerned that she would be attacked and would never get the apology she was hoping for. Reade and her brother, Collin Moulton, both said that their mother urged her to call the police, but her brother urged her to move on instead. “Woefully, I did not encourage her to follow up,” he said. “I wasn’t one of her better advocates. I said let it go, move on, guys are idiots.” (Moulton, who lives in Georgia, said he voted for Gary Johnson in 2016 and has no intention to vote for either Biden or Donald Trump.)

The experience in Biden’s office derailed her life, Reade’s friend said. “Back then people assumed girls just get over it,” she said. “But no, it plants a seed and lives can spin out of control. Yes, everybody’s an adult, but guess what, so is he.” At the time, there was just no way that Reade’s effort to right the wrong could succeed, her friend said, but this time, she’s determined to be heard. “It was the ‘90s,” she said. “There was no Me Too. There was no Time’s Up.”
I must admit, the fact that the person making the allegation in this case has a history of praising Putin does make me suspect their motives. And yet, that doesn't prove that they're lying, either.

This isn't the first allegation of inappropriate behaviour by Biden. Sure, one person might be lying for political reasons. Two? I suppose its possible? How many, though, before we start to admit that there's probably something there? Of course, this story received virtually no coverage. I guess it would have taken away time from obsessing over those sexist Bernie Bros.

If #MeToo is going to mean anything, if "believing victims" is going to mean anything, then it can't just be when its politically convenient. If we only believe allegations against our political opponents, but form ranks and defend the team when its a Democrat, then we really are no better than the Republicans, at least in this.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.

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Re: SUPERTHREAD: 2020 United States Elections

Post by Q99 » 2020-03-26 05:28pm

He's definitely been touchy, this is the first on this level to my knowledge, but the others make this plausible.


At this point I'm kinda hoping that when we get to the convention, Biden will step aside and they'll just select a compromise candidate.

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Re: SUPERTHREAD: 2020 United States Elections

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-03-26 05:42pm

Q99 wrote:
2020-03-26 05:28pm
He's definitely been touchy, this is the first on this level to my knowledge, but the others make this plausible.


At this point I'm kinda hoping that when we get to the convention, Biden will step aside and they'll just select a compromise candidate.
If he stepped aside, there'd be a strong demand from Sanders supporters and progressives to pick the candidate with the next most votes. I very much doubt that the DNC would go for that, of course- but there's no outcome there that's not highly divisive and potentially results in a large split in the party going into the general election.

Then again, I doubt Biden will drop out, even if a dozen accusers come forward. He's increasingly treating the primary as over and trying to pivot to the general. And most of the mainstream media appears to be content to bury this story for him. And unfortunately, Trump has set a precedent that even in the 21st. Century, no amount of sex abuse accusations will keep you from being President, though that's probably because the Republican base cares less about sex abuse of women than the Democratic base. So what worked for Donald may not work for Biden.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.

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Re: SUPERTHREAD: 2020 United States Elections

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-03-27 02:50am

Andrew Cuomo has now passed Bernie Sanders on betting sites' odds for who will win the Democratic nomination, despite not running.

Hillary places ahead of both (though far, far behind Biden, obviously), because despite her near-total irrelevance in the real world, some people just can't give up their hysterical and/or masturbatory fantasies of repeating 2016:

https://newsweek.com/andrew-cuomo-overt ... rs-1494529
Betting odds have pushed New York Governor Andrew Cuomo ahead of Democratic presidential candidate Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont to be the party's nominee to take on President Donald Trump.

Although Cuomo is not in the running for the Democratic nomination, more people are putting their money on the New York governor as he takes the lead on managing the coronavirus crisis in pandemic's U.S. epicenter. But former Vice President Joe Biden remains to be the clear favorite for the Democratic nomination.

An average of recent betting odds compiled by Real Clear Politics shows Cuomo with a 5.6 percent chance of becoming the Democratic presidential nominee, while Sanders trails with an average of 3.6 percent. Biden is far ahead however, with an average of 85.8 percent, while former 2016 Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton, who is not seeking the party's nomination, places second with an average of 6.3 percent.

Odds calculated by Bovada and SpreadEx give Cuomo the highest chance of securing the Democratic nomination, at 7 percent each. Meanwhile Sanders has a 4 percent and 3 percent chance respectively, according to the betting odds from the two sportsbooks.

Cuomo's press conferences about the coronavirus outbreak are watched daily by millions, as American's take comfort in the straight-forward and direct approach of the New York governor during a national crisis. New York is also the hardest-hit region of the country, with more than 30,000 confirmed cases and 280 deaths.

Currently, Biden leads Sanders by a significant margin of delegates – more than 300 ahead, according to the Associated Press tally. He also leads Sanders by double digits in most recent national polls, and appears to be significantly ahead in surveys of states yet to vote in the Democratic primary process. Besides Sanders and Biden, there is no other candidate actively seeking the Democratic nomination.

But technically, pledged delegates are not required to vote for the candidate they are tied to based on state primary and caucus results. Although it would be highly unusual, pledged delegates could technically back any person they chose when they go to the Democratic National Convention (DNC) in July. But that is unlikely to occur, as the individual candidates' campaigns have a say on who their pledged delegates are. The campaigns are not likely to choose delegates that they do not believe would be loyal.

Earlier in the election cycle, when the field of candidates was still large, there was significant talk of a brokered convention. Such a scenario could occur if no single candidate had a majority of delegates by the time the convention took place. The DNC, after a rule change following controversy in 2016, will only allow Super Delegates–which are not pledged to any particular candidate–to cast ballots in a second round of voting.

But that should only take place if no candidate won a majority of pledged delegates in the first round of voting. Most political analysts now project that Biden will enter the convention with the majority he needs, which should prevent that from happening.
I've also seen some growing talk about drafting Cuomo for nominee as a possible replacement for Biden. While I still think that Bernie Sanders would be the right choice if Biden couldn't do it, given that he, you know, actually ran and won a shit load of delegates, I'd be more okay with Cuomo than any other person who didn't even run. Even before the COVID-19 crisis, he earned my respect as the governor probably most willing to stand up to Trump.

Although really, he's probably too busy dealing with the crisis in New York right now to even consider a Presidential run. Under normal circumstances, I'd say he had a good shot at being the nominee in 2024 if the Democrats don't win this year, but if we don't win this year then we're probably in either a dictatorship or civil war by then.

By 2028, I expect demographics will have shifted enough to make anyone Right of Elizabeth Warren or even Bernie Sanders largely non-viable, unless millenials all shift to the Right or something.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

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Re: SUPERTHREAD: 2020 United States Elections

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-03-27 04:34am

Well, this is royal cluster fuck in the making.

First, an old article, but it gives a good run-down of Biden's history:

https://businessinsider.com/joe-biden-a ... ign-2019-6
In recent months, former Vice President Joe Biden has faced scrutiny over his interactions with women, as well as his refusal to apologize for his controversial behavior.

Eight women have accused Biden of touching them inappropriately or invading their personal space in ways that made them feel uncomfortable. None of them said Biden's behavior amounted to sexual harassment or assault.

Biden released a two-minute video after the initial allegations came out, but he was criticized for giving what critics deemed a "non-apology apology," in which he said he would try to do better moving forward. He later said he's "not sorry for anything that I've ever done."

The Delaware Democrat was further criticized for repeatedly making light of the allegations, and for commenting on the physical appearance of young girls he's met on the 2020 campaign trail in recent weeks.

Read more: Joe Biden probably won't stop making comments some people find sexist, but it won't necessarily hurt his campaign

Biden's defenders on both the left and the right say he didn't mean to offend anyone with his actions and that he prefers connecting with people on a personal level. But others say Biden's apparent unwillingness to change his ways is evidence that he doesn't understand how his actions have impacted people.

Here are a list of the allegations against Biden and his controversial interactions with young girls on the campaign trail:

Ally Coll, a former Democratic staffer, told The Washington Post that when she met Biden in 2008, he complimented her smile, squeezed her shoulders, and held her "for a beat too long."

Coll initially brushed off the incident, but she told The Post that reflecting on it now, she believes Biden's actions were inappropriate.

"There's been a lack of understanding about the way that power can turn something that might seem innocuous into something that can make somebody feel uncomfortable," Coll told The Post in April.

Sofie Karasek was photographed holding hands and touching foreheads with Biden at the 2016 Academy Awards. While many saw the moment as powerful, Karasek said she felt Biden had violated her personal space.

Karasek was one of dozens of sexual-assault survivors who stood on stage while Lady Gaga performed, "Til It Happens To You," which deals with rape and sexual assault.

The photograph of her and Biden went viral, but Karasek told The Washington Post that she felt the former vice president encroached on her personal space.

She also said she didn't think Biden's two-minute apology video adequately addressed the allegations against him. Biden never explicitly apologized for his actions, and Karasek said he "didn't take ownership in the way that he needs to."

"He emphasized that he wants to connect with people and, of course, that's important," she said. "But again, all of our interactions and friendships are a two-way street … Too often it doesn't matter how the woman feels about it or they just assume that they're fine with it."

Amy Stokes Lappos said Biden "put his hands behind my head and pulled me close and I thought, 'he's going to kiss me'" during a 2009 event.

Lappos, a small business owner and Democratic political activist, said the interaction with Biden occurred at a Greenwich, Connecticut fundraiser for Democratic Rep. Jim Himes in 2009.

Caitlyn Caruso told The New York Times that after she shared her story of sexual assault at a University of Nevada event in 2016, Biden hugged her "just a little bit too long" and put his hand on her thigh.

"It doesn't even really cross your mind that such a person would dare perpetuate harm like that," she told The Times. "These are supposed to be people you can trust."

DJ Hill told The Times that at a 2012 fundraising event in Minneapolis, Biden rested his hand on her shoulder and began moving it down her back. Hill said the encounter made her "very uncomfortable."

"Only he knows his intent," she told The Times. "If something makes you feel uncomfortable, you have to feel able to say it."

Alexandra Tara Reade, who worked at Biden's Senate office in 1993, told The Union that Biden would "put his hand on my shoulder and run his finger up my neck." She also alleges that she was told to serve drinks at an event because Biden liked her legs.

Reade also told The Union that when she refused to serve the drinks, her work responsibilities were reduced. Reade alleges that she told Senate staffers about what happened, and Biden's office found out. Two months later, she left her job.

Reade said the way she was treated made her feel like a piece of ornamental furniture.

"It's pretty. Set it over there," she said. "Then when it's too bright, you throw it away."

Vail Kohnert-Yount, a former White House intern, told The Post that when she met Biden in 2013, he "put his hand on the back of my head and pressed his forehead to my forehead." Kohnert-Yount also said Biden called her a "pretty girl."

She told The Post she was "so shocked" by the encounter that "it was hard to focus on what he was saying."

Kohnert-Yount said she wouldn't classify Biden's actions as sexual misconduct, but added that it's "the kind of inappropriate behavior that makes many women feel uncomfortable and unequal in the workplace."

In May 2019, Biden told a 10-year-old girl, "I bet you're as bright as you are good-looking."

The girl's teacher and mother defended Biden, but progressive critics argued the comments were further evidence of the candidate's pernicious, if unintentional, sexism.

In June 2019, Biden told the brothers of a 13-year-old girl to "keep the guys away" from her.

The Boston Globe reported that the interaction occurred when Biden met a voter at a coffee shop before a campaign event in Iowa.

When Biden met the voter's granddaughter, he asked her age. After she replied that she was 13 years old, Biden turned to her brothers and said, "You've got one job here, keep the guys away from your sister."
Now, granted, some of those could maybe be put down to him just being a bit too unaware of other peoples' personal space, being a touchey-feeling sort of person, being insensitive, but not necessarily malicious or sexual. But they do show a pattern of creepy and uncomfortable behaviour. Stuff like putting his hand on a woman's thigh, or giving a woman a job because he liked her legs and then penalizing her professionally when she refused it- yeah, that's way over the line.

And now we come to the one that's getting some attention right now (warning, article is graphic):

https://democracynow.org/2020/3/26/head ... _joe_biden
The Intercept is reporting that the Time’s Up Legal Defense Fund, set up to help survivors of rape and sexual assault, refused to fund a #MeToo investigation into allegations against Joe Biden. The charges were brought by Tara Reade, who worked as a staff assistant for then-Senator Biden in 1993, when she was in her mid-twenties. Reade told journalist Katie Halper in an interview published Tuesday that Biden repeatedly touched her without her consent and sexually assaulted her. A warning to listeners and viewers: Her account is graphic.

Tara Reade: “And then his hands were on me and underneath my clothes. And yeah, and then he went — he went down my skirt but then up inside it, and he penetrated me with his fingers.”

Reade approached the Time’s Up Legal Defense Fund in January looking for assistance, but was reportedly told the fund could not help her because Biden is a candidate for federal office, and pursuing a case could jeopardize the fund’s nonprofit status. The Intercept reports the public relations firm representing Time’s Up Legal Defense Fund is SKDKnickerbocker, whose managing director, Anita Dunn, is top adviser to Biden’s presidential campaign.
Which is much worse than anything we've heard previously, and if true, is flat-out rape.

Is this allegation true? There's no way to know for certain, from the evidence I've seen so far. But it bears repeating that there's a reason why we emphasize believing victims- because there are far more disbelieved and dismissed sexual assault allegations than false ones. And it stinks to high heaven that Time's Up refused to defend her, when the organization is tied to the Biden campaign. And the accusation, especially combined with Biden's past history, puts Biden in a deeply compromised position.

The pro-Biden media outlets are doing a pretty good job of sitting on it thus far- which just means we're about to get a deeply-compromised nominee and this blows up in the general election, because Trump and his surrogates WILL use it, and no, they won't care about the hypocrisy and neither will his base. They'll use it to Both Sides the Democrats on sexual assault, shield any of their candidates who are accused via Whataboutism, and depress turnout for Biden from women (the same suburban women who's shift from Red to Blue powered the Blue Wave in 2018).

This right here should be disqualifying. Moral issues aside, Biden is too big a risk. As to who should take his place... well, you all know what I think on that score, but even settling on Warren as a compromise candidate or drafting Cuomo would be arguably better. About the only thing worse would be nominating Gabbard or Bloomberg (or Hillary again).

I mean, seriously? The very existence of the American Republic, perhaps Democracy itself (not to mention the planetary ecosystem) on the line, and its not enough that they give us a possibly-senile nominee. Now it turns out that they're foisting a known serial sex abuser on us. To run against Trump. In the age of MeToo. When we're relying on women to turn out.

This is madness.

But oh, heaven forbid we nominate Bernie Sanders. :banghead:
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.

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Re: SUPERTHREAD: 2020 United States Elections

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-03-27 04:42am

Oh, and before someone (cough-FireNexus-cough) starts whining about sexist Bernie Bros- there is a difference between the candidate having some supporters who are sexist, who's actions he's disavowed, and the candidate himself being a serial groper and possible rapist. I doubt you will find one organization on the planet the size of a major Presidential campaign that doesn't have some creeps in it, and while we can and should judge Bernie on how he responds to misconduct by his supporters, he cannot fairly be held at fault for every bad thing a supporter of his happens to do.

Show me examples of women saying Bernie raped or groped or harassed them and I'll disavow his ass too.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.

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Re: SUPERTHREAD: 2020 United States Elections

Post by Ralin » 2020-03-27 06:01am

Yeah, I'm inclined to go Bernie or Bust over this.

More accurately, I'm inclined to loudly and publicly refuse to vote Democrat if Biden is the candidate.

That could lead to Trump being re-elected if enough people do it, and that would be a huge disaster. Trump is worse than Biden. But if liberal people refusing en masse to vote for their candidates is what it takes to strong arm the party into not nominating rapists and sex pests...yeah. I don't owe them my vote and neither does anyone else.

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Re: SUPERTHREAD: 2020 United States Elections

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-03-27 06:09am

Ralin wrote:
2020-03-27 06:01am
Yeah, I'm inclined to go Bernie or Bust over this.

More accurately, I'm inclined to loudly and publicly refuse to vote Democrat if Biden is the candidate.

That could lead to Trump being re-elected if enough people do it, and that would be a huge disaster. Trump is worse than Biden. But if liberal people refusing en masse to vote for their candidates is what it takes to strong arm the party into not nominating rapists and sex pests...yeah. I don't owe them my vote and neither does anyone else.
As much as I'd like to agree with that on principle... I can't. If Biden's the nominee, we HAVE to vote for him. Because I truly believe that four more years of Trump will leave the United States a dictatorship. It will not matter if we "strong arm" the party into doing the right thing if there's never another election. We will not get another chance, if we lose this one. It'll be dictator for life Trump, or a civil war we can't realistically hope to win. Between a probable rapist who will be gone in four or eight years, and a definite rapist who will be there until he fucking croaks, I'll pick the one who isn't seeking a life term.

We don't owe the Democratic Party or Biden a fucking thing. But we do owe the people losing their homes to climate change, and the people dying preventable deaths from COVID-19, and the children torn from their families and locked in cages. This monster MUST be stopped. And if that means allying temporarily with a lesser monster and praying that he somehow pulls it off... well, the Allies worked with Stalin to stop Hitler.

But dear God, there's a part of me hoping the old fuck gets coronavirus, or at least has a senior moment and pulls down his pants in front of a camera and shits the floor before the convention.

And there is now zero doubt in my mind that Bernie Sanders should stay in and keep offering the party a sane alternative right up until he walks through the convention doors (or, given the way things are going, logs onto the virtual convention online).
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.

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Re: SUPERTHREAD: 2020 United States Elections

Post by Ralin » 2020-03-27 06:18am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-03-27 06:09am

As much as I'd like to agree with that on principle... I can't. If Biden's the nominee, we HAVE to vote for him. Because I truly believe that four more years of Trump will leave the United States a dictatorship. It will not matter if we "strong arm" the party into doing the right thing if there's never another election. We will not get another chance, if we lose this one. It'll be dictator for life Trump, or a civil war we can't realistically hope to win. Between a probable rapist who will be gone in four or eight years, and a definite rapist who will be there until he fucking croaks, I'll pick the one who isn't seeking a life term.
And when Biden loses anyway because it turns out nominating a Democrat with that sort of baggage was a bad idea in practical terms too? Yeah it's playing with fire and I'm not saying Trump winning wouldn't be a lot worse, but it enough people don't take up fire juggling then we're going to keep ending up in this exact same situation indefinitely.

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Re: SUPERTHREAD: 2020 United States Elections

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-03-27 06:22am

Ralin wrote:
2020-03-27 06:18am
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-03-27 06:09am

As much as I'd like to agree with that on principle... I can't. If Biden's the nominee, we HAVE to vote for him. Because I truly believe that four more years of Trump will leave the United States a dictatorship. It will not matter if we "strong arm" the party into doing the right thing if there's never another election. We will not get another chance, if we lose this one. It'll be dictator for life Trump, or a civil war we can't realistically hope to win. Between a probable rapist who will be gone in four or eight years, and a definite rapist who will be there until he fucking croaks, I'll pick the one who isn't seeking a life term.
And when Biden loses anyway because it turns out nominating a Democrat with that sort of baggage was a bad idea in practical terms too? Yeah it's playing with fire and I'm not saying Trump winning wouldn't be a lot worse, but it enough people don't take up fire juggling then we're going to keep ending up in this exact same situation indefinitely.
Well, Biden might scrape a win on the basis of the coronavirus recession. If he loses, and I'm right about where that leads, then party politics will be a moot point. If he wins... then we primary the motherfucker in four years, and, bluntly, hope enough Boomers have died by then to make the difference.

My strategy for voting, such as it is, is basically "Vote socialist in the primary to push the party left, vote Democrat in the general because the alternative is fascism, if we can't get what we want, then minimize the damage until demographic shifts make it so we can elect the candidates we want, and in the meantime make sure there's still a country to elect them in four/eight years." Just stalling for time until the millenials become the dominant voting block and/or the country ceases to be majority white.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.

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Re: SUPERTHREAD: 2020 United States Elections

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-03-28 03:35am

Well, according to fivethirtyeight, Trump's disapproval rating is now below 50% for the first time in his Presidency since a brief dip below fifty in his first few months in 2017.

His approval rating is still below fifty, at 45.8. Which is still very near an all-time high for his Presidency.

So, apparently asking us to die like cattle for Wall Street's profits is what the voters want. Or at least the "undecided Centrists" who are supposedly the only ones who matter.

Tell me again why trying to win over "undecided Centrists" is the only thing that matters, as opposed to turning out our base? Because those people literally just got told "You are expected to die for Wall Street's profits" and said "Fuck yeah, that's a strong leader, give us more of that."

Do we really want to bet the future of the country and possibly the world on Joe Biden winning those people over on the right week in November before their fickle sympathies go back to Trump?
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.

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Re: SUPERTHREAD: 2020 United States Elections

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-03-28 03:46am

See, the thing is, the "undecided Centrist" is, almost by definition, not a deep political thinker, or well-informed. They go on their gut, on superficial impressions, and if they happen to see a candidate looking "tough" and "strong" a few hours before they vote, that's how they'll vote. And Trump can play to that. Joe Biden can't. Joe Biden practically exudes weakness, while Trump, though a cowardly egotist, can play the strong man in a way that will appeal to these peoples' primitive caveman brains. Ten to one, Trump wins the "Undecided Centrists" no matter who we nominate. This race will be won, or now far more likely lost, on how we turn out our base. The only argument for Biden there is his strong support with older black voters, and Hillary had that, and it didn't save her. Biden won't inspire record progressive turnout, or record youth turnout, or, if the primaries are any indication, record Latino turnout, and after recent revelations, its pretty safe to say he won't inspire record female turnout either.

Nominating a feeble, bumbling, rambling, frankly boring old Centrist with a history of groping women is practically handing Trump President for Life on a silver platter.

But hey, at least we didn't nominate a socialist. :finger: And I'm sure blocking Bernie (and then blaming him if Biden loses) will be a great comfort to some people while Trump criminalizes dissent and sends every minority and liberal activist to concentration camps.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.

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Re: SUPERTHREAD: 2020 United States Elections

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-03-28 03:57am

And I'll say right now- I will not accept the legitimacy of a Trump victory. That is not something I say lightly. Democracy and the rule of law and pretty much all civilization depend on the willingness to accept the legitimacy of outcomes other than the one we prefer. But there are exceptions. I do not believe that a man who locks children in concentration camps and tells his own people they must die for Wall Street has a right to his office, not even if he cons enough voters into saying he does.

I'd rather beat Trump through the Democratic process, and I'll do my best to support the Democratic nominee no matter how pathetic and stupid a choice it ends up being, but if the Centrists' self-serving stupidity and hatred of Bernie Sanders cost us the election, then fuck it, I'll call for a General Strike and try to topple Trump in the streets, even if I fully expect us to lose.

And I'll also say that if they give us Biden and he loses to Trump, then I'm done with the Democrats. I vote for them because the alternative is Republican despotism. If they can't prevent that, then they have no reason to exist as a party, and they'll likely be criminalized by Fuhrer Trump before much longer anyway. But if they foist a fucking molester with dementia on us to stop Bernie Sanders, and then Biden loses to Trump, then the very next day I will renounce my membership in the Democratic Party and switch my affiliation back to Independent.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.

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Re: SUPERTHREAD: 2020 United States Elections

Post by Gandalf » 2020-03-28 11:30am

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-03-28 03:57am
And I'll say right now- I will not accept the legitimacy of a Trump victory. That is not something I say lightly. Democracy and the rule of law and pretty much all civilization depend on the willingness to accept the legitimacy of outcomes other than the one we prefer. But there are exceptions. I do not believe that a man who locks children in concentration camps and tells his own people they must die for Wall Street has a right to his office, not even if he cons enough voters into saying he does.
If that's your line, then the legitimacy of the first century or so of presidents is in question. You know, the slavery and genocide ones, just to go for the low hanging fruit.

Does the US have a godawful way of choosing leaders? Yes. Do the populace choose terribly? Also yes. But that doesn't make a shitty PoTUS illegitimate.
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

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Re: SUPERTHREAD: 2020 United States Elections

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-03-28 12:30pm

Gandalf wrote:
2020-03-28 11:30am
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-03-28 03:57am
And I'll say right now- I will not accept the legitimacy of a Trump victory. That is not something I say lightly. Democracy and the rule of law and pretty much all civilization depend on the willingness to accept the legitimacy of outcomes other than the one we prefer. But there are exceptions. I do not believe that a man who locks children in concentration camps and tells his own people they must die for Wall Street has a right to his office, not even if he cons enough voters into saying he does.
If that's your line, then the legitimacy of the first century or so of presidents is in question. You know, the slavery and genocide ones, just to go for the low hanging fruit.

Does the US have a godawful way of choosing leaders? Yes. Do the populace choose terribly? Also yes. But that doesn't make a shitty PoTUS illegitimate.
Ah, yes, Gandalf's eternal cry of "The evils of the past means means you can't criticize the evils of the present!"

Should we have drawn the line a long time ago? Yes. But better late than never. If Trump deciding that millions of Americans should die of COVID-19 so he and his Wall Street buddies can get a bit richer is the line, then that's as good a line as any. And the fact that his predecessors got away with vile things is no reason why this shit bag should get away with it, or why we must treat his crimes as just business as usual. If this shit is normal in our history, then maybe its fucking time for it to STOP being normal, instead of justifying it with endless Whataboutism.

Sure, he's lawfully President, and so were all those slavers and rapists and genociders. Plenty of tyrants of all nationalities have had the sanction of law for at least some of their atrocities. Did that make it legitimate? By law, maybe. But not morally.

When he became President, Trump took an oath of office. He has not only broken it, he has routinely and willfully done so. If he has so little regard for the duties of his office, why should we recognize his right to it?
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.

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Re: SUPERTHREAD: 2020 United States Elections

Post by Captain Seafort » 2020-03-28 12:44pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-03-28 12:30pm
When he became President, Trump took an oath of office. He has not only broken it, he has routinely and willfully done so. If he has so little regard for the duties of his office, why should we recognize his right to it?
That's roughly what the English Parliament said about Charles I. The end result of their "solution" was a decade of war, followed by Oliver Cromwell. The French said something similar about Louis XVI. Their "solution" caused over twenty years of war and Napoleon Bonaparte. There are plenty of other examples with the common theme that, regardless of how much of a twerp the incumbent is, overthrowing the lawful head of state rarely has a positive outcome.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe - Albert Einstein

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Re: SUPERTHREAD: 2020 United States Elections

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-03-28 12:53pm

Captain Seafort wrote:
2020-03-28 12:44pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-03-28 12:30pm
When he became President, Trump took an oath of office. He has not only broken it, he has routinely and willfully done so. If he has so little regard for the duties of his office, why should we recognize his right to it?
That's roughly what the English Parliament said about Charles I. The end result of their "solution" was a decade of war, followed by Oliver Cromwell. The French said something similar about Louis XVI. Their "solution" caused over twenty years of war and Napoleon Bonaparte. There are plenty of other examples with the common theme that, regardless of how much of a twerp the incumbent is, overthrowing the lawful head of state rarely has a positive outcome.
Granted. Which is why I have argued and continue to argue against armed revolt (even though I increasingly think its likely to end up there regardless of what I want). I'm well aware of the history of revolution, and the tendency to, at great cost in lives and misery and destruction, replace one bad regime with another. I've made that argument many times.

But there does come a point where a situation becomes intolerable, and fear of failure cannot be an excuse to simply tolerate a worsening status quo forever.

For the present, I am willing to grit my teeth and wait until the election, and see if Trump can be checked in that way. If he cannot, either because he has conned enough of the American people and suppressed the votes of enough of the rest to win "legitimately", or because he outright rigs the race or refuses to peacefully leave... then I will support a General Strike, as the most disruptive and powerful action that can be taken short of being the aggressors in an armed conflict.

What I will not do is sit quietly forever while the most powerful nation on Earth becomes a fascist dictatorship run by a sociopathic clown who has publicly demonstrated his willingness to sacrifice us by the million for Wall Street's profits/his reelection strategy.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.

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Re: SUPERTHREAD: 2020 United States Elections

Post by Gandalf » 2020-03-28 01:06pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-03-28 12:30pm
Ah, yes, Gandalf's eternal cry of "The evils of the past means means you can't criticize the evils of the present!"

Should we have drawn the line a long time ago? Yes. But better late than never. If Trump deciding that millions of Americans should die of COVID-19 so he and his Wall Street buddies can get a bit richer is the line, then that's as good a line as any. And the fact that his predecessors got away with vile things is no reason why this shit bag should get away with it, or why we must treat his crimes as just business as usual. If this shit is normal in our history, then maybe its fucking time for it to STOP being normal, instead of justifying it with endless Whataboutism.

Sure, he's lawfully President, and so were all those slavers and rapists and genociders. Plenty of tyrants of all nationalities have had the sanction of law for at least some of their atrocities. Did that make it legitimate? By law, maybe. But not morally.

When he became President, Trump took an oath of office. He has not only broken it, he has routinely and willfully done so. If he has so little regard for the duties of his office, why should we recognize his right to it?
That's not whataboutism. I'm just playing with your premise, wherein immoral acts somehow affect the legitimacy of an elected leader. Going by that rationale, most US leaders would be illegitimate, and perhaps the whole system itself given it was built on genocidal expansion.
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

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- George Carlin

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Re: SUPERTHREAD: 2020 United States Elections

Post by Captain Seafort » 2020-03-28 01:18pm

The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-03-28 12:53pm
For the present, I am willing to grit my teeth and wait until the election, and see if Trump can be checked in that way. If he cannot, either because he has conned enough of the American people and suppressed the votes of enough of the rest to win "legitimately", or because he outright rigs the race or refuses to peacefully leave... then I will support a General Strike, as the most disruptive and powerful action that can be taken short of being the aggressors in an armed conflict.
You're still talking in terms of overthrowing the lawful head of state by extralegal means. If your lot lose in November (assuming the election doesn't get Covided off) then grit your teeth and wait until the next election. The alternative is to declare that you - not Trump, you - are not prepared to abide by the rules, and the current US constitutional framework is therefore null and void. Once that toothpaste is out of the tube you'll have a devil of a job getting it back in, and it won't be Trump who gets the blame for pulling it out.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe - Albert Einstein

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Re: SUPERTHREAD: 2020 United States Elections

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2020-03-28 01:21pm

Gandalf wrote:
2020-03-28 01:06pm
The Romulan Republic wrote:
2020-03-28 12:30pm
Ah, yes, Gandalf's eternal cry of "The evils of the past means means you can't criticize the evils of the present!"

Should we have drawn the line a long time ago? Yes. But better late than never. If Trump deciding that millions of Americans should die of COVID-19 so he and his Wall Street buddies can get a bit richer is the line, then that's as good a line as any. And the fact that his predecessors got away with vile things is no reason why this shit bag should get away with it, or why we must treat his crimes as just business as usual. If this shit is normal in our history, then maybe its fucking time for it to STOP being normal, instead of justifying it with endless Whataboutism.

Sure, he's lawfully President, and so were all those slavers and rapists and genociders. Plenty of tyrants of all nationalities have had the sanction of law for at least some of their atrocities. Did that make it legitimate? By law, maybe. But not morally.

When he became President, Trump took an oath of office. He has not only broken it, he has routinely and willfully done so. If he has so little regard for the duties of his office, why should we recognize his right to it?
That's not whataboutism. I'm just playing with your premise, wherein immoral acts somehow affect the legitimacy of an elected leader. Going by that rationale, most US leaders would be illegitimate, and perhaps the whole system itself given it was built on genocidal expansion.
Hell, if I thought we could get it done, and actually get a decent result, I'd be all for calling a Constitutional convention and starting from scratch.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.

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